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Municipal bus companies proposal

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aron2smith

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I think the problem with big private companies like Arriva is they are essentially monopolies in specific regions that rarely if ever bear any relation to each other.

Their Southend operations are isolated from Lea Valley/ Harlow, which is isolated from Watford/West Herts which is isolated from Medway, which is isolated from Colchester and so on.

It's a mad way of running a company.

When compared to the likes of Go Ahead, they all have clear local identities and locally managed with much more attention to detail and reliability.

I'd prefer a return to the regional bus companies seen under the old National Bus Company but at least with Go Ahead, it seems half way there.
 
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Haywain

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Their Southend operations are isolated from Lea Valley/ Harlow which is isolated from Watford/ West Herts which is isolated from Medway which is isolated from Colchester and so on. It's a mad way of running a company. When compared to the likes of Go Ahead, they all have clear local identities and locally managed with much more attention to detail and reliability. I'd prefer a return to the regional bus companies seen under the old National Bus Company but at least with Go Ahead, it seems half way there.
This is nonsense. You say that it is "mad" to run sepsrate local business units and then praise Go Ahead for doing that just bacause they use a vatiety of names. And then seek a return to NBC which was another collection of local business units.
 

aron2smith

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This is nonsense. You say that it is "mad" to run sepsrate local business units and then praise Go Ahead for doing that just bacause they use a vatiety of names. And then seek a return to NBC which was another collection of local business units.
Ultimately, I want municipal bus companies.

The NBC would just be an umbrella organisation, like British Rail 2/ GBR will be. Buses should've been done the way trains were privatised.

Split the country into a number of regional units, so the private company either runs all or nothing in a particular region. The real nonsense is seeing sizeable towns with 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or more supposedly competing bus companies, all with their own tickets no one else accepts. What a mess!

In Hertfordshire's case, losing almost all of its bus links to Greater London, including the limited stop routes, was also nonsense and makes using buses awkward in towns like Cheshunt, and then we wonder why they are only used by those of us with no other choice.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Ultimately I want municipal bus companies. The NBC would just be an umbrella organisation like British Rail 2/ GBR will be. Buses should've been done the way trains were privatised. Split the country into a number of regional units, so the private company either runs all or nothing in a particular region. The real nonsense is seeing sizable towns with 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or more supposedly competing bus companies, all with their own tickets no one else accepts. What a mess! In Hertfordshire's case, losing almost all of its bus links to Greater London, including the limited stop routes was also nonsense and makes using buses awkward in towns like Cheshunt and then we wonder why they are only used by those of us with no other choice.
Can I enquire as to how old you are, and your personal recollections of the National Bus Company?

Certainly doesn't tally to my recollections of the NBC? Moreover, there were always issues. Take a town like Darlington... It had a municipal company and then it had an NBC subsidiary (United). Tickets weren't inter-available, and neither were they on other local operators that visited (like Scotts Greys). Also, most NBC operations weren't that local (at least prior to the prep for privatisation). Bus services in your area were managed from Reigate - about 50 miles away. United ran the local services in Berwick with Eastern Scottish - based in Darlington and Edinburgh respectively!

Cross-border links differ according to what location. There are plenty of cross-border services in Surrey and in Essex. Geography is a reason but so is the impact of TfL. As for sizeable towns with bus companies with tickets that no other accepts... doesn't Hertfordshire have multi-operator tickets based on 1 zone, 2 zones and all zones?
 

greenline712

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If we look back to the 1960s ... Country Buses ran route 310 from Hertford to Enfield; and Green Line 715 through Waltham Cross. Pretty much everything else was Central Buses; a quirk of fate in that Country had no garage closer than Hertford; Central had garages at Ponders End and Potters Bar.

Fares were NOT co-ordinated ... Central had Red Rovers; Country had Green Rovers, and they were not valid on the other's buses.

LCBS was indeed planned and co-ordinated from Reigate ... local garages had no input into that process.

Waltham Cross has always been a boundary town ... there has to be a boundary somewhere ... look at Manchester today.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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One thing that I think is noteworthy is that there does seem to be a slightly more commercial approach being taken with Arriva. It may be a slight change, but there are some little experiments being undertaken, along with some fleet replacement. It's long overdue, but there are some changes. Arriva was never the most dynamic of firms in its own right, but the dead hand of DB definitely made things a lot worse.

In addition, I occasionally visit MK with work and have to agree, the external presentation is as bad as anywhere in Arriva...except Harlow.
 
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aron2smith

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Great. As your gripe is not about Arriva perhaps you should start a new thread to discuss it rather than derailing a thread some of us find useful for dealing with the real world.
How many chances should Arriva (and bus privatisation) get? It was justified 40 years ago to improve buses, the companies that came out of it like Arriva haven't done that at all. In fact, services and timetables have declined massively. Time for it to change. If I could just move to somewhere with far better bus services that actually bother to connect to the trains, I would just do that, believe me!

And my main gripe with Arriva is a near total lack of late evening services, which they won't run unless the council funds it.

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Can I enquire as to how old you are, and your personal recollections of the National Bus Company?

Certainly doesn't tally to my recollections of the NBC? Moreover, there were always issues. Take a town like Darlington... It had a municipal company and then it had an NBC subsidiary (United). Tickets weren't inter-available, and neither were they on other local operators that visited (like Scotts Greys). Also, most NBC operations weren't that local (at least prior to the prep for privatisation). Bus services in your area were managed from Reigate - about 50 miles away. United ran the local services in Berwick with Eastern Scottish - based in Darlington and Edinburgh respectively!

Cross-border links differ according to what location. There are plenty of cross-border services in Surrey and in Essex. Geography is a reason but so is the impact of TfL. As for sizeable towns with bus companies with tickets that no other accepts... doesn't Hertfordshire have multi-operator tickets based on 1 zone, 2 zones and all zones?
It's before my time and I don't have a real opinion of outside London Country but when I found out Cheshunt was once apart of the London Transport network (more red buses than green). You shouldn't be surprised I would want that back, doesn't matter if the country routes themselves were managed 50 miles away, we were directly connected by bus to the places in London we regularly interact with. Now it's all a faff unless you drive, which I don't. Waltham Cross is hell right now and was never a good place to change routes anyway. And I'm sure it was far from perfect, but the system now seems far more backward. Herts last year greatly expanded it's connect ticketing but is still quite complicated to a lot of people compared to TFL and Herts boundaries don't mix with an effective transport network.
 
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thomasheywood

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How many chances should Arriva (and bus privatisation) get? It was justified 40 years ago to improve buses, the companies that came out of it like Arriva haven't done that at all. In fact, services and timetables have declined massively. Time for it to change. If I could just move to somewhere with far better bus services that actually bother to connect to the trains, I would just do that, believe me!

And my main gripe with Arriva is a near total lack of late evening services, which they won't run unless the council funds it.

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It's before my time and I don't have a real opinion of outside London Country but when I found out Cheshunt was once apart of the London Transport network (more red buses than green). You shouldn't be surprised I would want that back, doesn't matter if the country routes themselves were managed 50 miles away, we were directly connected by bus to the places in London we regularly interact with. Now it's all a faff unless you drive, which I don't. Waltham Cross is hell right now and was never a good place to change routes anyway. And I'm sure it was far from perfect, but the system now seems far more backward. Herts last year greatly expanded it's connect ticketing but is still quite complicated to a lot of people compared to TFL and Herts boundaries don't mix with an effective transport network.
If you want Cheshunt to have TfL buses then campaign to have Broxbourne become a London borough, because that’s the only way you’ll have red buses serving Cheshunt, Hoddesdon etc…
 

aron2smith

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If you want Cheshunt to have TfL buses then campaign to have Broxbourne become a London borough, because that’s the only way you’ll have red buses serving Cheshunt, Hoddesdon etc…
What about Debden, Potters Bar, Borehamwood and Watford? They didn't need to be London Boroughs to get red buses. Also I do want to be apart of a larger Greater London, but that shouldn't be necessary to get the buses we need. The area is getting more and more built up, the transport authorities should be keeping up and planning/ funding accordingly. Perfectly good bus garage in Southbury that could run services up to here, nearer than Ware Garage.
 

Stan Drews

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What about Debden, Potters Bar, Borehamwood and Watford? They didn't need to be London Boroughs to get red buses. Also I do want to be apart of a larger Greater London, but that shouldn't be necessary to get the buses we need. The area is getting more and more built up, the transport authorities should be keeping up and planning/ funding accordingly. Perfectly good bus garage in Southbury that could run services up to here, nearer than Ware Garage.
I imagine if the local authorities outside of the TfL area had access to the same level of funding, they’d quite happily support improved service levels.
 

thomasheywood

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What about Debden, Potters Bar, Borehamwood and Watford? They didn't need to be London Boroughs to get red buses. Also I do want to be apart of a larger Greater London, but that shouldn't be necessary to get the buses we need. The area is getting more and more built up, the transport authorities should be keeping up and planning/ funding accordingly. Perfectly good bus garage in Southbury that could run services up to here, nearer than Ware Garage.
I understand that you want improved evening transport and that’s fine, but are you expecting TfL/Hertfordshire to fund services that would end up carrying fresh air? I live in Hillingdon now and after 7PM the U lettered routes are empty, earlier on I went for a walk and every bus I saw had less than 5 passengers, how is that sustainable for TfL, let alone a commercial bus company?

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What about Debden, Potters Bar, Borehamwood and Watford? They didn't need to be London Boroughs to get red buses. Also I do want to be apart of a larger Greater London, but that shouldn't be necessary to get the buses we need. The area is getting more and more built up, the transport authorities should be keeping up and planning/ funding accordingly. Perfectly good bus garage in Southbury that could run services up to here, nearer than Ware Garage.
Also Broxbourne is built up, but urban development is narrow, you can walk 15 minutes and be in countryside. Even if TfL ever did decide to operate routes north of Waltham cross they would only ever really consider operating the 310, most houses in that part of the Lea valley would be within 4-500 meters of that route anyway, there’s no way TfL would operate the 212 to Beech Barnes for example.
 
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aron2smith

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I understand that you want improved evening transport and that’s fine, but are you expecting TfL/Hertfordshire to fund services that would end up carrying fresh air? I live in Hillingdon now and after 7PM the U lettered routes are empty, earlier on I went for a walk and every bus I saw had less than 5 passengers, how is that sustainable for TfL, let alone a commercial bus company?
The point is, they wouldn't be carrying fresh air if they connected to a more logical place than Waltham Cross, which has very few nighttime businesses (even supermarkets shut early!).

Extending any of the routes from Enfield like the 217 and 317 out to us in the towns next door would be decently used by people, as Enfield offers much more in places to go.

I also wonder how relevant some journeys carrying few passengers really are, in a wider network setting. If the 251 pays only for the 251 or 310 just for 310, picking up small numbers is a problem, but if every route in the area funds everything else, then there should be no problem.

I've been on every Night route in London, many going towards Central London appeared to be very quiet, but they were often packed going the other way!
 
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Snex

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Surely most people in Cheshunt will be using the train and/or connecting to a train at Waltham Cross or Theobalds Grove instead?
 

aron2smith

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Also Broxbourne is built up, but urban development is narrow, you can walk 15 minutes and be in countryside. Even if TfL ever did decide to operate routes north of Waltham cross they would only ever really consider operating the 310, most houses in that part of the Lea valley would be within 4-500 meters of that route anyway, there’s no way TfL would operate the 212 to Beech Barnes for example.
Yeah the narrow development is a major factor in the bus network here and a big part of the problem, arguably a weird side effect of the green belt. Rye Park in Hoddesdon is almost 7 miles from the London boundary! Really we need a couple more rail stations and just have the buses serve them all on every journey. And I wouldn't expect TFL to run the community routes at all, but it would make sense for them to run out to Hammond Street, Upshire (251), to Cuffley and Potters Bar on the 242 and ideally restore the long missing link from Chingford to Waltham Abbey, which Arriva ran over 10 years ago on the 505. Maybe even run the 66 to Loughton. Then all the fringe areas would be consistently connected. 310 would probably make sense as far as Hoddesdon, not all the way to Hertford though.
 

thomasheywood

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The point is they wouldn't be carrying fresh air if they connected to a more logical place than Waltham Cross, which has very few nighttime businesses (even supermarkets shut early!). Extending any of the routes from Enfield like the 217 and 317 out to us in the towns next door would be decently used by people, as Enfield offers much much more in places to go. I also wonder how relevant some journeys carrying few passengers really is in a wider network setting. If the 251 pays only for the 251 or 310 just for 310, picking up small numbers is a problem but if every route in the area funds everything else, then there should be no problem. I've been on every Night route in London, many going towards Central London appeared to be very quiet but they were often packed going the other way!
And what is there in Enfield town centre or Turnpike Lane that draws people in from Broxbourne? Enfield has the exact same kind of shops and services now that Waltham Cross and Hoddesdon have, if you want to go properly shopping why would you go there when it takes less than 30 minutes to get to Westfield on the train? Arriva ran direct services on the 310 from Enfield to Hertford every 15 minutes up until the mid 2000’s, if so many people wanted to travel between those towns don’t you think Arriva would still be running to Enfield?
 

aron2smith

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Surely most people in Cheshunt will be using the Overground and/or connecting to a train at Waltham Cross or Theobalds Grove instead?
Unfortunately there is a large residential section of the town that isn't really near any of the railways at all. I live 1.5 miles away from the station and some areas like Hammond Street are 3 miles+ from any station. Add in that local buses don't go to Cheshunt station at all and very few time with the other 2 stations and that is a big problem which seriously limits access to things. It's a poor layout made worse by a lack of joined up thinking between transport and development. The car centric nature of the area doesn't help any bus company. The new housing areas are miles from anything!

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And what is there in Enfield town centre or Turnpike Lane that draws people in from Broxbourne? Enfield has the exact same kind of shops and services now that Waltham Cross and Hoddesdon have, if you want to go properly shopping why would you go there when it takes less than 30 minutes to get to Westfield on the train? Arriva ran direct services on the 310 from Enfield to Hertford every 15 minutes up until the mid 2000’s, if so many people wanted to travel between those towns don’t you think Arriva would still be running to Enfield?
It's where I want to go and it's made awkward because of the boundaries and the likes of London and Herts not working with each other. I like Hoddesdon too but Enfield has the nearest hospital, my dentist, hairdresser, nearest cinema. Loads of things. Buses are supposed to be convenient, the current set up here is not convenient, it's fragmented across the commuter belt for reasons that make no sense. I don't know why many of these cross-boundary routes disappeared but obviously TFL and commercial routes don't mix and in that case, they are the ones who should be running the cross-boundary routes. And not Arriva who obviously can't compete with TFL commercially, even though they run services for them at the same time.
 
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Snex

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Unfortunately there is a large residential section of the town that isn't really near any of the railways at all. I live 1.5 miles away from the station and some areas like Hammond Street are 3 miles+ from any station. Add in that local buses don't go to Cheshunt station at all and very few time with the other 2 stations and that is a big problem which seriously limits access to things. It's a poor layout made worse by a lack of joined up thinking between transport and development. The car centric nature of the area doesn't help any bus company. The new housing areas are miles from anything!

Yeah that's fair, to be honest, that's the biggest problem as it is in a lot of places. The lack of integration between trains / buses outside of London is generally awful, as most people aren't going to be forking out £6 for the bus then fork another £10 for the train which pretty much sums it up in most places.

Obviously a bus route in the same area is going to struggle aswell as the people near the station will all be on the train so there's no-one around to use it. No doubt it's the problem that exists around there (I don't know though).
 

thomasheywood

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Unfortunately there is a large residential section of the town that isn't really near any of the railways at all. I live 1.5 miles away from the station and some areas like Hammond Street are 3 miles+ from any station. Add in that local buses don't go to Cheshunt station at all and very few time with the other 2 stations and that is a big problem which seriously limits access to things. It's a poor layout made worse by a lack of joined up thinking between transport and development. The car centric nature of the area doesn't help any bus company. The new housing areas are miles from anything!

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It's where I want to go and it's made awkward because of the boundaries and the likes of London and Herts not working with each other. I like Hoddesdon too but Enfield has the nearest hospital, my dentist, hairdresser, nearest cinema. Loads of things. Buses are supposed to be convenient, the current set up here is not convenient, it's fragmented across the commuter belt for reasons that make no sense. I don't know why many of these cross-boundary routes disappeared but obviously TFL and commercial routes don't mix and in that case, they are the ones who should be running the cross-boundary routes. And not Arriva who obviously can't compete with TFL commercially, even though they run services for them at the same time.
Buses were more frequent in and around Waltham Cross until relatively recently, the 242 used to run to Potters Bar every 30 minutes every day and there were buses until midnight. But they were withdrawn, why? Because no one used them.

I’ve read your posts but you have to understand that you live in an area that has always been dependent on a car, maybe you should direct your anger at Enfield Council for placing you outside London in such a remote location.
 

aron2smith

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Buses were more frequent in and around Waltham Cross until relatively recently, the 242 used to run to Potters Bar every 30 minutes every day and there were buses until midnight. But they were withdrawn, why? Because no one used them.

I’ve read your posts but you have to understand that you live in an area that has always been dependent on a car, maybe you should direct your anger at Enfield Council for placing you outside London in such a remote location.
Yes but they need to restore services like the old 242 and a Enfield-Cheshunt direct route like the 310 was, if they keep building the area up as they have been for years. The pressure to build here is massive and stuff like the local transport doesn't really add up. It's car centric now but it really can't remain that way in the future. I guess I show frustration to Arriva who can't change it and the councils who don't seem to want to change it. The government and councils surely waste money on something far more expensive than some lightly used buses that are still essential to those of us who need them.

Arriva are actually doubling the 310's Sunday daytime frequency in just 6 weeks, so it runs half hourly. I can picture myself doing some nice Sunday days out on that, which I wouldn't do with the current Sunday hourly service.
 

thomasheywood

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Yes but they need to restore services like the old 242 and a Enfield-Cheshunt direct route like the 310 was, if they keep building the area up as they have been for years. The pressure to build here is massive and stuff like the local transport doesn't really add up. It's car centric now but it really can't remain that way in the future. I guess I show frustration to Arriva who can't change it and the councils who don't seem to want to change it. The government and councils surely waste money on something far more expensive than some lightly used buses that are still essential to those of us who need them.

Arriva are actually doubling the 310's Sunday daytime frequency in just 6 weeks, so it runs half hourly. I can picture myself doing some nice Sunday days out on that, which I wouldn't do with the current Sunday hourly service.
There you go, a Sunday service every 30 minutes is not that bad, a lot better than many parts of the country, look at Manchester which now has a franchised bus system like TfL, half their routes run at the most every hour on a Sunday through areas far more built up than Broxbourne…
 

aron2smith

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Yeah that's fair, to be honest, that's the biggest problem as it is in a lot of places. The lack of integration between trains / buses outside of London is generally awful, as most people aren't going to be forking out £6 for the bus then fork another £10 for the train which pretty much sums it up in most places.

Obviously a bus route in the same area is going to struggle aswell as the people near the station will all be on the train so there's no-one around to use it. No doubt it's the problem that exists around there (I don't know though).
It's ironic really as parking is a major problem both at the station and residential streets within a 5 minute walk, so the demand is there, just requires someone who is willing to figure it out. I think Cheshunt really needs a circular town route myself with fares low enough to encourage even short journeys.

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There you go, a Sunday service every 30 minutes is not that bad, a lot better than many parts of the country, look at Manchester which now has a franchised bus system like TfL, half their routes run at the most every hour on a Sunday through areas far more built up than Broxbourne…
It's not half hourly yet (the change is from 31st August) but will get usage from me when it does, I actually do like my area but the buses and traffic ruins it a bit. As for Manchester, beyond some service enhancements, they have barely touched the network yet, that's likely an ongoing project, with network reviews and everything still to come.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm going to cover off a few of the points that @aron2smith has said in recent days.

Now, it is entirely understandable that someone living in Hertfordshire and outside of TfL's area will look enviously at the number of red buses and the evening frequencies and say "I'd like that where I live". I think we'd all love more services and at more times. However, we look at the figures involved... TfL subsidise the bus operations to the tune of c.£800m IIRC. That's about the same as the rest of England, I think! It's often sold by politicians (espousing franchising) that they can deliver a London style network yet the costs are never explained. And remember, this is with a level of cross-subsidy from the very busy London routes...something that places like Hertfordshire can only dream about.

The rose-tinted view of London Country and the NBC in general also needs to be put to bed; there are myths that simply don't bear close examination (and the poster is not the first person to say these things) to the reality especially from those who were there at the time. The NBC was heavily loss making through much of the 1970s. The reason why it ceased to be and was more self sustaining in the 1980s was that it instituted some massive cuts to services and depots through Market Analysis Projects. Much of that was focussed on the more rural parts of LCBS as I'm sure @greenline712 would testify. Also in that time, the reduction in the Green Line network took place and into the 1980s. The reason for that - increasing traffic congestion (since the 1950s) was making services unreliable and slow and, let's be honest, British Rail was pretty moribund. They got their act together, with Network SouthEast and then into the franchised world, and rail services are considerably improved since then. The wish to travel from Broxbourne to Enfield. Well, the poster may wish to make that journey, and it's frustrating that they can't. However, is that a major flow/traffic objective or personal preference? In fact, looking at the 1965 London Country timetable, that wasn't a journey that was available in those halcyon days. The fact is that if there was a major flow there, someone would be in there and doing it. I think that's it as regards the wider issue of bus service ownership and control (and the history thereof).

Onto the subject of Arriva. Much as though they were woeful in many respects, the old Central Connect were not averse to steaming in when Arriva withdrew on corridors like the 420 (now 20). Now it is absolutely fair to highlight that CC were poor, and that Arriva ceded territory in areas where they should never have been in that position. Arriva were hamstrung by unrealistic margin expectations from head office, compounded with a massive belt tightening on capital investment as DB's debt pile increased. So effectively, you had a board in Germany who were ultimately responsible for authorising investment - do they use the limited funds on a guaranteed 6% return on running river boats in Copenhagen or a higher risk 10% on some buses in Hertfordshire? I think we know what happened.

So what happens now? Well, you have a new owner that does have access to more funds in iSquared. They are a private equity fund and, lord knows, we've seen some bad ones in various other industries. iSquared tend to have a decent record in long term investing and developing their business. A lot of questions were raised about Arriva not bidding for Manchester, and the exit from Bucks and Cheshire, and that it was iSquared exerting their influence. In reality, it was a hangover from the dark DB days. However, it will be a long way back for a business that has been starved of finance and the freedom to innovate over 8/9 years. I was warning about this in c.2014 when it was far more fashionable to slag off First.

There are the first signs of change - a slight loosening of the commercial shackles, a bit of targeted investment. However, these are issues that have been years in the making so don't expect massive investment. It's a long way back and, as befits a large organisation, there will be differences as to how OpCos behave. Unless you rule by diktat, giving management teams freedom to manage will highlight regions that have a more cautious or conservative approach than another. Not everyone is an Andrew Wickham (god rest) and even in Go Ahead world, you have the good (GSC), the bad (GNE) and the ugly (Go East Anglia).

For the first time in a while, I think it might be interesting to see what Arriva actually do.
 

greenline712

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An interesting post from @TheGrandWazoo there, and much to agree with. One tiny point . . . Country route 310 did provide a link from north of Waltham Cross to Enfield, and had done since the 1920s at least. The link was broken at the behest of London Buses around 20 years ago; the "round the corner" at Ponders End was seen as not beneficial to "London" (different fares and operator), and the route was diverted via the Great Cambridge Road before finally being withdrawn.

LCBS in the 1980s took a long hard look at their bus routes (as part of the Market Analysis Project), and yes . . . slashed away at whatever had no chance of profitability. The deep rural routes had largely been dealt with in the 1970s . . . MAP knocked away the evening and Sunday routes as necessary to turn round the viability of LCBS . . .and did so!! At privatisation, LCBS was very nearly profitable in all areas. Green Line had largely had its day . . . and yes, BR and electrification did for many of the routes . . . it just took a long time to realise that!

It's down to that awful word . . . money. I do wish that our Cheshunt correspondent would realise that . . . does he really think that TfL and Herts CC never talk to each other? If there was a political desire for cross-boundary routes, then they would exist . . . there isn't. Perhaps he would do better talking to his local councillors and MP . . . banging on here won't make a jot of difference . . . sorry, but that's the way it is.
The routes across the boundary in Surrey are London routes that were London routes way back in the 1980s, and are there purely for that reason, AND that "London" sees some value in them.

And now, desperately trying to bring this thread back onto topic: As far as Arriva is concerned . . . I concur that, like GoAhead, there are some better bits that are trying to shake off the dead hand of DB, but I;m not sure that the current structure will enable that.
Arriva Midlands does seem to have some entreprenurial instincts in play, although the LOOP could have been introduced better . . . a full hourly timetable and a really punchy livery would have been nice (as Carousel are doing in Wycombe . . . actually speculating to accumulate). It was better than nothing, but not much . . . sorry @arrivamatt. It's also good to see some efforts in the Luton area . . . including the changes to 321 through to Watford . . . which is showing up the other routes there!

Arriva Kent Thameside seems to have a death wish . . . in the way that they walked away from Guildford, and the Zebra deal in Stevenage, I just don't see any desire to innovate and expand. Everything seems to be in the "too difficult" pile just now . . . we really can't blame Covid or the aftermath of Covid now. Add to that the "rag-bag" of operations, none of which are linked or in any way seem to talk to each other (the recent 724 / 725 changes in Maple Cross smack of nobody at Herlow talking to anybody at Hemel Hempstead or Stevenage, let alone pre-warning Herts CC of their intentions) . . . I really can't see any way forward for Colchester or Hemel now . . . better to do a "Wycombe" and walk away. Stevenage and Harlow might have enough to stand alone, although I bet Central Connect would love to jump in at Harlow! Southend? Um . . . it could go either way, although FirstBus do seem to be making more of an effort there.

I don't know enough about other Arriva operations to comment . . . I'll leave it to others to do so. And please . . . no more about Cheshunt . . . !!
 

aron2smith

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699
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London
I'm going to cover off a few of the points that @aron2smith has said in recent days.

Now, it is entirely understandable that someone living in Hertfordshire and outside of TfL's area will look enviously at the number of red buses and the evening frequencies and say "I'd like that where I live". I think we'd all love more services and at more times. However, we look at the figures involved... TfL subsidise the bus operations to the tune of c.£800m IIRC. That's about the same as the rest of England, I think! It's often sold by politicians (espousing franchising) that they can deliver a London style network yet the costs are never explained. And remember, this is with a level of cross-subsidy from the very busy London routes...something that places like Hertfordshire can only dream about.

The rose-tinted view of London Country and the NBC in general also needs to be put to bed; there are myths that simply don't bear close examination (and the poster is not the first person to say these things) to the reality especially from those who were there at the time. The NBC was heavily loss making through much of the 1970s. The reason why it ceased to be and was more self sustaining in the 1980s was that it instituted some massive cuts to services and depots through Market Analysis Projects. Much of that was focussed on the more rural parts of LCBS as I'm sure @greenline712 would testify. Also in that time, the reduction in the Green Line network took place and into the 1980s. The reason for that - increasing traffic congestion (since the 1950s) was making services unreliable and slow and, let's be honest, British Rail was pretty moribund. They got their act together, with Network SouthEast and then into the franchised world, and rail services are considerably improved since then. The wish to travel from Broxbourne to Enfield. Well, the poster may wish to make that journey, and it's frustrating that they can't. However, is that a major flow/traffic objective or personal preference? In fact, looking at the 1965 London Country timetable, that wasn't a journey that was available in those halcyon days. The fact is that if there was a major flow there, someone would be in there and doing it. I think that's it as regards the wider issue of bus service ownership and control (and the history thereof).

For the first time in a while, I think it might be interesting to see what Arriva actually do.
It's not about more services, its about restoring what we once had. I'm not that bothered who runs the 310, it's that the 279 used to come out to Flamstead End/ Hammond Street, the 217 used to come out to Upshire, both in the London built up area. The 242 and 250 (now 66) both provided crucial links between outer London and the fringe areas in the Lea Valley. All were red routes, unlike the green 310. Why did deregulation end those services when Borehamwood still gets the 292 and Debden still gets the 20? That's what I want to know. I'm not in some backwater middle of nowhere, my town is clearly an extension of London and only growing if you look at the plans the council has and yet it's cut off from London's transport system, that is what makes no sense. Most of the London services into Surrey towns also survived, to me it's my area that seems to have been unfairly singled out.

I went on about London Country as that seems like the most logical way of connecting county areas to the capital. Edinburgh still does this with Lothian Country, so with London that would make even more sense. At least Hertfordshire seems to be making much more effort to improve and standardise connectivity across itself (Arriva runs most of these routes), the BSIP priorities were actually spot on but we need some late evening connectivity too. Which annoyingly no for profit service will do on its own.

Also fair points, Greenline712. I'm sorry. I honestly hope in the near future, buses will be just there in the background, boring and dependable for me, a bit like how trains are around here. Unfortunately for now, the bus cuts are still severely felt here and I can't afford to move away.

And all I can say with Arriva, is if you are going to stick around here, just invest in the areas you serve and promote yourselves. The 310 Sunday frequency increase from 31st August is one good example that has changed my perspective and every increase in service gives me more confidence in using the service.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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An interesting post from @TheGrandWazoo there, and much to agree with. One tiny point . . . Country route 310 did provide a link from north of Waltham Cross to Enfield, and had done since the 1920s at least. The link was broken at the behest of London Buses around 20 years ago; the "round the corner" at Ponders End was seen as not beneficial to "London" (different fares and operator), and the route was diverted via the Great Cambridge Road before finally being withdrawn.
Hmmm.... not certain how I missed that in my check of timetable world. Thanks for the correction.
And now, desperately trying to bring this thread back onto topic: As far as Arriva is concerned . . . I concur that, like GoAhead, there are some better bits that are trying to shake off the dead hand of DB, but I;m not sure that the current structure will enable that.
Arriva Midlands does seem to have some entreprenurial instincts in play, although the LOOP could have been introduced better . . . a full hourly timetable and a really punchy livery would have been nice (as Carousel are doing in Wycombe . . . actually speculating to accumulate). It was better than nothing, but not much . . . sorry @arrivamatt. It's also good to see some efforts in the Luton area . . . including the changes to 321 through to Watford . . . which is showing up the other routes there!

Arriva Kent Thameside seems to have a death wish . . . in the way that they walked away from Guildford, and the Zebra deal in Stevenage, I just don't see any desire to innovate and expand. Everything seems to be in the "too difficult" pile just now . . . we really can't blame Covid or the aftermath of Covid now. Add to that the "rag-bag" of operations, none of which are linked or in any way seem to talk to each other (the recent 724 / 725 changes in Maple Cross smack of nobody at Herlow talking to anybody at Hemel Hempstead or Stevenage, let alone pre-warning Herts CC of their intentions) . . . I really can't see any way forward for Colchester or Hemel now . . . better to do a "Wycombe" and walk away. Stevenage and Harlow might have enough to stand alone, although I bet Central Connect would love to jump in at Harlow! Southend? Um . . . it could go either way, although FirstBus do seem to be making more of an effort there.
You have encapsulated some of the thinking/examples that influenced my comments on Arriva.

There is some movement in Arriva in the Midlands, and that is to be welcomed. It is limited and with such a sprawling territory, from Shrewsbury to Luton, you question how much they can readily undertake. However, it is noticeable that they are trying things.

Arriva Southern Counties seems to be in a much poorer position. Colchester has long been an outpost and even when saved by British Bus, they spirited the modern vehicles away. Southend is a similar case albeit larger. For me, the former London Country ops were always challenging and especially Harlow which was semi-exiled at one point before being restored to the main firm. When you look at Hemel, there's clearly a decent business in there, somewhere, as we've seen with Go Ahead taking on Crawley and then Wycombe. However, it feels that the inexorable rise of the Red empire has rendered Arriva paralysed. Whilst the element split from the Shires is pretty uninspiring, the fall from grace of the former Kentish Bus/M&D bits is even more pronounced. Medway and Maidstone are now pale shadows of what they were in M&D days. Certainly, there's few signs of life there and even the Colchester changes feel like a battening on the hatches.

Go Ahead showed with Crawley that you can develop a business, albeit helped by Gatwick and developments there. Still, you'd not have trusted Arriva to capitalise on that. It may be a little early to say that Carousel will be the same transformation but the early signs are promising. However, my trips locally in that Herts/Bucks area in recent years with Arriva were certainly rather sobering!
 

Dwarfer1979

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442
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Leicester
It's not about more services, its about restoring what we once had. I'm not that bothered who runs the 310, it's that the 279 used to come out to Flamstead End/ Hammond Street, the 217 used to come out to Upshire, both in the London built up area. The 242 and 250 (now 66) both provided crucial links between outer London and the fringe areas in the Lea Valley. All were red routes, unlike the green 310. Why did deregulation end those services when Borehamwood still gets the 292 and Debden still gets the 20? That's what I want to know. I'm not in some backwater middle of nowhere, my town is clearly an extension of London and only growing if you look at the plans the council has and yet it's cut off from London's transport system, that is what makes no sense. Most of the London services into Surrey towns also survived, to me it's my area that seems to have been unfairly singled out.
Probably because Borehamwood & Debden offer something for London residents to gain as town centres and are a logical point to terminate at for buses that are heading at least as far as the boundary rather than just stopping at a roundabout in the middle of nowhere due to boundaries being between places. Flamstead End/Hammond Street are effectively housing estates north of the logical destination for London residents of Waltham Cross and offer no gain for London ratepayers who subsidise their bus services. London provides services for London residents, you are not a London resident (even if it is, unusually, a little difficult to spot the join around Waltham Cross) as you live in Hertfordshire so they don't care about you whilst Hertfordshire would rather you stay in Hertfordshire so are not going to spend lots of money to take you out of the county & they can't afford to pay the sort of money TfL demand to extend one of their services there. Herts doesn't have the funding London does (simple demographics and population density means they have less money regardless of other funding streams TfL gets that Herts does not) nor does it have the bus usage culture that much of London does that will support London levels of service without major medium to long term support to establish it (there may be lots of cars parked around the station but that only shows lots of people use the train not that lots of people would be prepared to catch a bus to the station even if a service existed (it used to, my employer used to run a bus from Cuffley & Hammond Street to Cheshunt Station every half-hour in the peaks - first bus 0620, last bus 1910 - and it relied on council funding and was not that well used)

As someone who grew up in Surrey I don't have the same rosy view of the position of cross boundary services into Surrey. Many vanished as London didn't value them but the surrey half couldn't support itself without the London passengers they couldn't access as they couldn't get payments to accept London passes (Oyster, Travelcards etc). Staines & Epsom see decent links for the same reason Watford, Borehamwood & Debden do because they are logical destinations for London residents and just over the boundary but London doesn't go further out than they need to without payment from the council (the 465 reaches Dorking because Surrey pay to extend it beyond Leatherhead to maintain an important link to the former county town of Kingston where it would otherwise terminate as that is the first point beyond the long tongue of the London boundary around Chessington because that link can't be maintained commercially due to the length of road within London and even then they frequently say they are struggling to pay what TfL demand). Kingston has decent cross boundary links because it is relatively close to the boundary so commercial services were never reliant on local London passengers to support the service and as the former county town of Surrey there are still strong historical links but Croydon which used to have a similar level of cross boundary links has much fewer as it is much deeper inside London and TfL can terminate logically just inside or just outside the boundary so there is no need to go too far beyond.
 

Whisky Papa

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726
Interesting though this discussion has been, would it be possible to find a more appropriate title to reflect the way it has developed?
 

tbtc

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And what is there in Enfield town centre or Turnpike Lane that draws people in from Broxbourne? Enfield has the exact same kind of shops and services now that Waltham Cross and Hoddesdon have, if you want to go properly shopping why would you go there when it takes less than 30 minutes to get to Westfield on the train?

I don't know the current provision/demand in Enfield etc, but @thomasheywood makes a great point here that could be quoted in many bus threads

Some enthusiasts seem obsessed with orbital routes, a number of nostalgic comments you get in any region of the UK are about bringing back the 'outer circle' etc

In some places there's that demand, especially if it links 'out of town ' places like hospitals

But realistically, how many people will pay two quid (minimum) to travel from their suburb with a primary school/ Co-op/ Greg's/ chip shop/ Indian restaurant/ estate agent/ Church/ two pubs to travel to another suburb that has basically the same facilities?

A handful will want to do that in dribs and drabs to visit a friend, maybe there'll be quite a few at school time (given how many line out of catchment these days), maybe someone will work in the neighboring estate agent

However demand will always be higher into the town/city centre

And the same applies to services between similarly sized towns (like Enfield, I'm guessing)

Having buses skirting round the suburbs sounds nice on paper, it links bits on a map, maybe a councilor or two will get harangued about supposed missing links, there might be some buzzwords about 'network connectivity'. It's just going to be very hard to actually attract real life passengers to wait/ queue/ pay to make those kind of journeys

(It's the same with trains - for example here in Yorkshire there are frequent trains between Leeds and Bradford/ Huddersfield/ Wakefield but only ever a lightly loaded hourly train at best between those separate places - e.g. whilst Huddersfield and Wakefield are both fine places, there's not a huge amount in one that the other doesn't have, whereas going into the big city of Leeds offers jobs/ shops/ leisure that will justify such travel - see also the problems finding a viable market for trains between Wolverhampton and Wallsall, or Cumberland and Motherwell, or Altrincham to Stockport.... Which is why I'm sceptical of 'well intentioned' proposals for train services like Barnsley to Doncaster)
 

PeterC

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4,775
The problem for "country" services coming into London is that lack of intermediate traffic once the boundary is crossed with TfL's artificially low fares and range of proprietory smart cards and passes
 

The exile

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31 Mar 2010
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9,365
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Somerset
Some enthusiasts seem obsessed with orbital routes, a number of nostalgic comments you get in any region of the UK are about bringing back the 'outer circle' etc

In some places there's that demand, especially if it links 'out of town ' places like hospitals

But realistically, how many people will pay two quid (minimum) to travel from their suburb with a primary school/ Co-op/ Greg's/ chip shop/ Indian restaurant/ estate agent/ Church/ two pubs to travel to another suburb that has basically the same facilities?

A handful will want to do that in dribs and drabs to visit a friend, maybe there'll be quite a few at school time (given how many line out of catchment these days), maybe someone will work in the neighboring estate agent

However demand will always be higher into the town/city centre

And the same applies to services between similarly sized towns (like Enfield, I'm guessing)

Having buses skirting round the suburbs sounds nice on paper, it links bits on a map, maybe a councilor or two will get harangued about supposed missing links, there might be some buzzwords about 'network connectivity'. It's just going to be very hard to actually attract real life passengers to wait/ queue/ pay to make those kind of journeys
At least part of the problem with orbital services (and lots of other “improvements” that are either suggested on here or even put into practice by well-meaning authorities) is that they are done in isolation. Many of the potential journeys on orbital routes will be “legs” of journeys so unless and until you get integrated ticketing, timetabling and infrastructure they will rarely happen. As an example of the latter, pre COVID my quickest way home from the station (if I just missed the direct bus) involved a dog leg with (in theory) perfect interchange time. However, the positioning of the bus stops meant crossing two arms of a two-lane roundabout crossroads (if you see what I mean) without any pedestrian crossings. Not conducive to the use of public transport at all!
 
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