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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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03_179

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This may have been answered but

What are the NEW stations on the East West Rail line?
Are the current Marston Vale lines are being retained?
Will there be a new station (not re-sited) station for this Universal Theme Park?

Thanks in advance,
 
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zwk500

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This may have been answered but

What are the NEW stations on the East West Rail line?
Are the current Marston Vale lines are being retained?
Will there be a new station (not re-sited) station for this Universal Theme Park?

Thanks in advance,
I don't believe EWR have announced any firm decisions.
 

Falcon1200

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So what features of EWR mean that it will have substantially higher patronage than a similar peripheral line linking two places with direct services to London. Say, Reading - Guildford?

EWR will link Oxford and Cambridge with the WCML and the Midland Main Line, providing multiple connectional opportunities as well as end-to-end journeys.

You are incorrect as Guildford does have a world-beating University

Guildford Uni can hardly be mentioned in the same bracket as Oxford and Cambridge, surely!
 

Nottingham59

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Looks hard to find any estimates, but I'm sure the business case for EWR would have included.
Unfortunately not. The best I can find is in post #6380, which are for the full route Oxford-Cambridge.

The Case for East West Rail, Western Section Phase 2 (Dec 2018) which covers Oxford-MK and Oxford-Bedford includes "value of user time savings" over 60 years. So they must have projections of passenger numbers, but they don't actually publish those numbers anywhere.



1752653110746.png

My reason for looking is that I'm getting fed up with claims for new line openings which claim that "passenger numbers are exceeding all expectations". If they don't publish explicit passenger forecasts before opening, then such claims are just bollocks political spin after the event.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This may have been answered but

What are the NEW stations on the East West Rail line?
Are the current Marston Vale lines are being retained?
Will there be a new station (not re-sited) station for this Universal Theme Park?

Thanks in advance,
The options for MVL stations being considered are listed in "table 38: MVL Scope Recommendations" of the Economic and Technical Report here:
 
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Magdalia

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This may have been answered but

What are the NEW stations on the East West Rail line?
Are the current Marston Vale lines are being retained?
Will there be a new station (not re-sited) station for this Universal Theme Park?

Thanks in advance,
In Marston Vale we don't know yet.

The November 2024 non-statutory consultation still had an existing stations option and a consolidated stations option, plus the possibility of some sort of hybrid. This is from the technical report:

EWR Co presented alternative concepts for the configuration of stations along the MVL at the non-statutory consultation in 2021. These were referred to as Service Concepts 1 and 2. Since the route update announcement in 2023, EWR Co has explored these concepts further, and also considered a further hybrid concept. These concepts are:

• Existing Stations Option (Concept 1a) – This option would retain all stations and the current stopping patern for the existing service today. Two additional services would operate between Oxford and Cambridge calling at Woburn Sands, Ridgmont, Lidlington, Stewartby and Bedford St Johns. Stewartby would also see two additional services to and from Cambridge.

• Consolidated Stations Options (Concept 2) – This option would consolidate the existing stations into four new stations at Woburn Sands, Ridgmont, Lidlington and Stewartby. Three services an hour in each direction would serve these stations, all of which would continue onto Cambridge. Stewartby would also see one additional service to and from Cambridge.

• Hybrid Existing and Consolidated Stations Option (Concept 1b) – This option is a hybrid of Options 1a and 2 which would provide relocated stations consistent with Option 2 but also retain the existing slower, stopping service to call at the remaining existing stations. The service pattern would be the same as Option 1.

Presumably EWR will be opting for one option or the other in the statutory consultation, having considered the responses to the non-statutory consultation, and their discussions with Universal.

There is plenty of discussion on this upthread, during the period when the non-statutory consultation was taking place (November 2024-January 2025).

East of Bedford there will be new stations at Tempsford and Cambourne. Tempsford will also include platforms on the East Coast Main Line.
 

03_179

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I don't believe EWR have announced any firm decisions.
Thank you
In Marston Vale we don't know yet.

The November 2024 non-statutory consultation still had an existing stations option and a consolidated stations option, plus the possibility of some sort of hybrid. This is from the technical report:

Presumably EWR will be opting for one option or the other in the statutory consultation, having considered the responses to the non-statutory consultation, and their discussions with Universal.

There is plenty of discussion on this upthread, during the period when the non-statutory consultation was taking place (November 2024-January 2025).

East of Bedford there will be new stations at Tempsford and Cambourne. Tempsford will also include platforms on the East Coast Main Line.
Thanks
 

coppercapped

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SNIP

Guildford Uni can hardly be mentioned in the same bracket as Oxford and Cambridge, surely!
As an alumni of the University of Surrey I would argue that in its areas of expertise it can well be mentioned in the same breath! It is, after all, one institution whereas Oxford and Cambridge are made up of many.

Although not as old as the two institutions you mention it has a respectable history and, of interest I hope to members of RailUK Forums, an association with the railways. Founded in 1891 as Battersea Polytechnic serving one of the poorer areas of London it had close relations with the London and South Western Railway's plant at Nine Elms supplying, among other things, metallurgical services to the Chief Mechanical Engineer, Dugald Drummond.
 

deltic

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Where did you get this figure of 90% via Thameslink from? I've not found that in any of the documentation. I suspect you just invented it.
My estimate is about 2/3 at Wixams and 1/3 at kempston Hardwick. That seems to fit with the figures they are suggesting for Wixams.
The vast majority of people visiting Universal by train will be coming from London. As a family type attraction, those not living in London will mainly come by car. Difficult to see what centres of population along EWR will generate the equivalent of half the number of visitors that will come from London.
 

pokemonsuper9

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The vast majority of people visiting Universal by train will be coming from London. As a family type attraction, those not living in London will mainly come by car. Difficult to see what centres of population along EWR will generate the equivalent of half the number of visitors that will come from London.
I can imagine significant numbers of people coming from the North West / West Midlands and changing at Milton Keynes or Bletchley for Universal, likely nowhere near the amount of people from London, but I can certainly see a busy flow there
 

Wyrleybart

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I can imagine significant numbers of people coming from the North West / West Midlands and changing at Milton Keynes or Bletchley for Universal, likely nowhere near the amount of people from London, but I can certainly see a busy flow there
Do you mean the the significant number of theme park attenders will be from the northwest / Midlands with nowhere near as many from London, or do you mean those from the northwest / Midlands will be nowhere the number of people from London ?
I would have thought sheer numbers would be from London as it would be just an hour away from Central London, hadly much more than Windsor and other such attractions.

I see dedicated non stop Universal shuttles from London - except maybe not in the UK !!!
 

pokemonsuper9

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Do you mean the the significant number of theme park attenders will be from the northwest / Midlands with nowhere near as many from London, or do you mean those from the northwest / Midlands will be nowhere the number of people from London ?
I would have thought sheer numbers would be from London as it would be just an hour away from Central London, hadly much more than Windsor and other such attractions.

I see dedicated non stop Universal shuttles from London - except maybe not in the UK !!!
I am saying that whole there will be a lot from London, there will still be an amount worth keeping in mind coming via Milton Keynes/ Bletchley.
 

cle

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Well Reading and Guildford don't have world-leading universities and the accompanying high-paying industries surrounding them, for starters.
Reading was Cambridge before Cambridge boomed - from the M4 corridor point of view of tech jobs. Microsoft and Oracle.

But it has a more diverse / generalized 'regional hub' economy too. Guildford is similar, but both are materially quicker from a commuting point of view than Oxford and Cambridge.

The universities don't compare - but I would suggest that the prestige of the cacdemia doesn't drive a ton of rail demand in itself. Reading Uni is sizeable and Surrey too. And of course, all are rail hubs.
 

Trainbike46

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Reading was Cambridge before Cambridge boomed - from the M4 corridor point of view of tech jobs. Microsoft and Oracle.

But it has a more diverse / generalized 'regional hub' economy too. Guildford is similar, but both are materially quicker from a commuting point of view than Oxford and Cambridge.

The universities don't compare - but I would suggest that the prestige of the cacdemia doesn't drive a ton of rail demand in itself. Reading Uni is sizeable and Surrey too. And of course, all are rail hubs.
When comparing Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford, and Cambridge with Reading and Guildford, I'd say the former wins on most predictors of rail demand (tourist attractiveness, economy, railhubs, linked institutions, and possibly population?)
 

bspahh

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The universities don't compare - but I would suggest that the prestige of the academia doesn't drive a ton of rail demand in itself. Reading Uni is sizeable and Surrey too. And of course, all are rail hubs.
The differences between the Oxford & Cambridge areas over Reading & Guildford are:
  • there are a lot of people with specialised careers - a PhD teaches you more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
  • they have an international reputation, so you get more people coming to work from other countries. I have been in meetings with a dozen people, where me and 2 others were born in the UK
With a specialised career, if you move between jobs, they are spread further apart. The last time I had to look for a job, when I had been working in Cambridge, there was one in Cambridge, another in Ongar (a 60 mile drive) and another in Oxford (I would have had to move).

If you have a partner who also has a specialised job, then its another constraint.

Some people from other countries are happy driving a RHD car, but a significant fraction are not.

At the moment, if you have a couple where one works in the Cambridge area, and one works in the Oxford area, both of them need to drive, or they need to live in London, and pay London property prices as well as paying for a season ticket.

If spending a bit on the railway between Oxford & Cambridge means that a couple can live somewhere in the middle and commute to either or both Oxford & Cambridge

East West Rail not about Professors travelling back and forth, its about extending the travel to work areas.
 

Magdalia

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The universities don't compare - but I would suggest that the prestige of the cacdemia doesn't drive a ton of rail demand in itself. Reading Uni is sizeable and Surrey too.
Until 10 years ago you would have been right, but not any more.

We are part way through a huge economic revolution, made possible by smartphones, big data, artificial intelligence and life sciences. In this revolution the main driver is knowledge, and this means that Oxford and Cambridge have become economic goldmines. Reading and Surrey Universities are not in the same league, they don't have the global recognition that Oxford and Cambridge already had before this revolution started.

Reading was Cambridge before Cambridge boomed - from the M4 corridor point of view of tech jobs. Microsoft and Oracle.

When comparing Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford, and Cambridge with Reading and Guildford, I'd say the former wins on most predictors of rail demand
Reading has benefitted hugely from being part way between London and Oxford, but it doesn't compare with either, or with Cambridge. When EWR opens, Milton Keynes will benefit in much the same way from being part way between Oxford and Cambridge, and Bedford should be looking to get some of that benefit too.

The differences between the Oxford & Cambridge areas over Reading & Guildford are:
  • there are a lot of people with specialised careers - a PhD teaches you more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
  • they have an international reputation, so you get more people coming to work from other countries. I have been in meetings with a dozen people, where me and 2 others were born in the UK
With a specialised career, if you move between jobs, they are spread further apart. The last time I had to look for a job, when I had been working in Cambridge, there was one in Cambridge, another in Ongar (a 60 mile drive) and another in Oxford (I would have had to move).

If you have a partner who also has a specialised job, then its another constraint.

Some people from other countries are happy driving a RHD car, but a significant fraction are not.

At the moment, if you have a couple where one works in the Cambridge area, and one works in the Oxford area, both of them need to drive, or they need to live in London, and pay London property prices as well as paying for a season ticket.

If spending a bit on the railway between Oxford & Cambridge means that a couple can live somewhere in the middle and commute to either or both Oxford & Cambridge

East West Rail not about Professors travelling back and forth, its about extending the travel to work areas.
This is one of the most important benefits of EWR.

The UK economy has had a poor record on economic growth since the 2008 financial crash. A lot of that is because UK workers have not increased productivity. The easiest way for any individual worker to improve their productivity is to move from a lower paid job to a higher paid job. The UK economy is held back by lack of job mobility mainly caused by lack of transport infrastructure and a dysfunctional housing market. EWR will be a huge boost to job mobility in the booming Oxford and Cambridge economies, helping both to grow more quickly, through lots of different examples of what is described here.

In this respect job mobility Reading/Guildford has much less economic impact than job mobility Oxford/Cambridge.
 
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higthomas

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Reading was Cambridge before Cambridge boomed - from the M4 corridor point of view of tech jobs. Microsoft and Oracle.
That's a good point, but I think there are a few key differences in their growth that will cause a difference in rail demand:
  1. Reading is a much larger place, so X thousand new tach jobs will require a smaller percentage of the homes.
  2. The Thames valley is much more built up than Cambridgeshire. This, combined with 1, means someone who gets a job is much more likely to be able to find a home in the vicinity rather than needing to commute from Guildford.
  3. Reading's tech boom as it were was 20+ years ago, when someone who just got a job at Oracle was much more likely to be able to buy the kind of place they wanted nearby, compared to now post housing price explosion where even reasonably well paying biotech jobs aren't going to allow someone to buy a family home in Cambridge.
All of these mean that people are likely going to be coming on average further to work in Cambridge than reading.
 

WesternBiker

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That's a good point, but I think there are a few key differences in their growth that will cause a difference in rail demand:
  1. Reading is a much larger place, so X thousand new tach jobs will require a smaller percentage of the homes.
  2. The Thames valley is much more built up than Cambridgeshire. This, combined with 1, means someone who gets a job is much more likely to be able to find a home in the vicinity rather than needing to commute from Guildford.
  3. Reading's tech boom as it were was 20+ years ago, when someone who just got a job at Oracle was much more likely to be able to buy the kind of place they wanted nearby, compared to now post housing price explosion where even reasonably well paying biotech jobs aren't going to allow someone to buy a family home in Cambridge.
All of these mean that people are likely going to be coming on average further to work in Cambridge than reading.
Quite. And there's a lot more growth in pipeline in the Cambridge area: Savill's recently reported that 6.4m sq ft of laboratory space was in the development pipeline. (That's nearly four times the size of Lakeside Thurrock Shopping Centre). That equates to a lot of well-paid jobs - and knock-on demand for housing and services.
 

hwl

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That's a good point, but I think there are a few key differences in their growth that will cause a difference in rail demand:
  1. Reading is a much larger place, so X thousand new tach jobs will require a smaller percentage of the homes.
  2. The Thames valley is much more built up than Cambridgeshire. This, combined with 1, means someone who gets a job is much more likely to be able to find a home in the vicinity rather than needing to commute from Guildford.
  3. Reading's tech boom as it were was 20+ years ago, when someone who just got a job at Oracle was much more likely to be able to buy the kind of place they wanted nearby, compared to now post housing price explosion where even reasonably well paying biotech jobs aren't going to allow someone to buy a family home in Cambridge.
All of these mean that people are likely going to be coming on average further to work in Cambridge than reading.
One of the big differences between M4 corridor tech employment growth previously and Cambridge now/recently is that the M4 tech jobs were mostly created by big/medium sized firms - Cambridge has some of that but also lot and lots of start ups
 

higthomas

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One of the big differences between M4 corridor tech employment growth previously and Cambridge now/recently is that the M4 tech jobs were mostly created by big/medium sized firms - Cambridge has some of that but also lot and lots of start ups
A lot of whom don't actually pay that well, hence people not being able to afford to buy in Cambridge.
 

hwl

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A lot of whom don't actually pay that well, hence people not being able to afford to buy in Cambridge.
Indeed and the Cambridge area green belt has limited home building leading to very high prices. THe M4 corridor had enough land and good road and rail links to have the office space and the housing to go with it. A lot of EWR is about surround town and lots of new build trying* to address the housing situation. (* it will fall short!). Effectively trying to clone Bicester/Abingdon in Cambridgeshire.
 

cle

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I'm not saying Reading is more of a tech hub than Cambridge, or that the academia compares as such. But there are some parallels. It's certainly more of a rail hub and much better connected to London (quicker anyway) and Heathrow.

Reading is a larger, more general economy. But Cambridge has grown a lot. It's obviously much nicer too, lol. Guildford is far smaller, but it's not an insignificant place in the broader region - healthy economy, good connections in all directions and high skilled TTW area.

In any case, I don't think comparing them is that helpful. We should be happy that finally we are growing hubs of economic activity which are not Central London / Docklands in this country.
 

Class 170101

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In any case, I don't think comparing them is that helpful. We should be happy that finally we are growing hubs of economic activity which are not Central London / Docklands in this country.
But unfortunately its still in the Greater South East so that will pile pressure on public services, like hospitals, schools, water in this area rather than spread outside of the Greater South East.
 

gallafent

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But unfortunately its still in the Greater South East so that will pile pressure on public services, like hospitals, schools, water in this area rather than spread outside of the Greater South East.
Splitting hairs to some perhaps, but I would say importantly (particularly in terms of regional funding allocation), Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire are in the East of England, rather than the South East (and yes, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire _are_ in the South East :).
 

flitwickbeds

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Splitting hairs to some perhaps, but I would say importantly (particularly in terms of regional funding allocation), Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire are in the East of England, rather than the South East (and yes, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire _are_ in the South East :).

I don't think anyone really knows how to categorise Bedfordshire.
 

NickBucks

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I think it is worth pointing out that Oxford particularly and Cambridge have been the source of graduates many of whom moved into politics and the civil service at permanent secretary level and who are largely responsible for the poor transport infrastructure in this country.(What did happen to Boris's airport in the Thames estuary and his bridge across the Irish Sea) ? I cannot recall, but I maybe wrong,that the University of Surrey has yet to be the source of a UK prime minister which may be in its favour given the record of the occupants of No 10 in recent years.
 

cle

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But unfortunately its still in the Greater South East so that will pile pressure on public services, like hospitals, schools, water in this area rather than spread outside of the Greater South East.
Depends how much you want to zoom out. There are millions upon millions in the Thames Valley, Anglia, South Midlands, Wessex, whatever - who do not want to live or work in London but doing a hybrids role in Reading, Oxford or Cambridge might be perfectly doable. And earning higher wages.

It’s good for there to be credible alternatives. No space here for a north/south row, thanks - enough threads for that!
 

Magdalia

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the Cambridge area green belt has limited home building leading to very high prices.
The Tempsford/Cambourne route is primarily to unlock land for houses from which the residents can commute to Cambridge.

that will pile pressure on public services, like hospitals, schools, water in this area
That applies to anywhere with a rapidly growing population. The Cambridge area has plans for hospitals and water, the schools need to be located with the new housing.

I don't think anyone really knows how to categorise Bedfordshire.
The government have been putting Bedfordshire in the East of England for a long while now.

Local TV has done the same for a long time too, helped by the mighty Sandy Heath transmitter being in Bedfordshire.

An interesting boundary question is looming with Tempsford, which can be expected to straddle the existing Bedfordshire/Cambridgeshire border.
 

Steve Harris

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An interesting boundary question is looming with Tempsford, which can be expected to straddle the existing Bedfordshire/Cambridgeshire border.
According to mapping websites, Tempsford and it's airfield (which is AFAIA is where the new housing is earmarked be built) is wholly within Bedfordshire, so I don't understand why you think it will straddle the Beds/Cams border.
 

Magdalia

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According to mapping websites, Tempsford and it's airfield (which is AFAIA is where the new housing is earmarked be built) is wholly within Bedfordshire, so I don't understand why you think it will straddle the Beds/Cams border.
We don't know much about the new town yet, but, if it is going to make East West Rail worthwhile, it is going to be much bigger than the airfield. I'm thinking roughly the same size as nearby St Neots or Huntingdon as a guide. Furthermore, the proposed station locations in the technical document are quite a long way north of the airfield, near to the new A421 Black Cat-Caxton Gibbet road, and close to the county border, which crosses the ECML near Little Barford, south of the existing A428 St Neots bypass.

Drawing a blob as big as St Neots or Huntingdon, taking in the airfield and the new station locations, is going to include some of Cambridgeshire.
 

Steve Harris

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Apart from a quick Google search brings up a document* which clearly shows the area's to be developed go up to but not over the county boundary, (in fact the demarcation line on the map follows the county boundary for part of the way) which makes sense as the developers will only need to deal with one planning authority instead of two.

* https://www.jasbhallaworks.com/work/tempsford-new-market-town
 
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