Super Off Peak validity when two operators have different time constraints

[Mortonhall]

Hi there! I'm hoping to get an answer to a question that's been bothering me for some time.

I sometimes want to make the following journey, on a weekday:
- Blackheath (dep 11:35) to London Bridge (arr 11:49) - on Southeastern
- London Bridge to Waterloo East (frequent service, exact times aren't relevant) - also on Southeastern
- Waterloo (dep 12:35) to Bournemouth - on SWR.

And then a return journey on a different day, but the details of that aren't important to this question.

My question is, is a Super Off Peak Return valid for this journey? To me it seems like it should be, because

- on Southeastern, any time after 10:00 is OK, according to https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/ticket-types/super-off-peak-ticket
- on SWR out of Waterloo, any time after 12:01 is OK, according to https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/super-off-peak-tickets
- so for every individual train I'd be on, I'd have a ticket that was valid on that train.

The thing is, journey planners never give me this option. They always price it as an Off Peak Return, or as a split ticket with a Super Off Peak Return for the Waterloo-Bournemouth leg and Anytime Singles for the parts inside London (which works out more expensive than a Super Off Peak Return for the whole journey).

To get a journey planner to offer me a Super Off Peak Return, I have to say that I'm going to start my whole journey from Blackheath after 12:01. It's as if the more stringent requirement on SWR "overrides" the looser requirement on Southeastern, even when I'm on a Southeastern train.

Is that true? Or are the journey planners just not clever enough to work it out? Up to now I've always gone for the split ticket option (using TfL contactless payment for the bit inside London), but I always wonder if I'm being too cautious.

Thanks!
Richard

 

[JonathanH]

My question is, is a Super Off Peak Return valid for this journey? To me it seems like it should be, because

- on Southeastern, any time after 10:00 is OK, according to https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/ticket-types/super-off-peak-ticket
- on SWR out of Waterloo, any time after 12:01 is OK, according to https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/super-off-peak-tickets
- so for every individual train I'd be on, I'd have a ticket that was valid on that train.

It doesn't work how you describe it. Every ticket has its own restrictions set by the faresetter.

The restrictions that Southeastern have for a journey from, say, Tonbridge to London, have no bearing on the fares South Western Railway set for the journey from Blackheath to Bournemouth.

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BKH&dest=BMH&rte=703&tkt=SSR shows that no travel is permitted on the ticket until 1201, so this is the earliest that you can leave Blackheath.

Not valid to depart​

any location​

0430–1200​

on any TOC​

It's as if the more stringent requirement on SWR "overrides" the looser requirement on Southeastern, even when I'm on a Southeastern train.

Yes, South Western Railway (or its predecessors) were allocated the flow from stations in Zones 1-6 to its area at privatisation, so they set the fares and the restrictions.

As it happens, from Dartford, outside zone 6, to Bournemouth the restrictions on the super off-peak return are even more stringent, still set by South Western Rail, with no arrival in London permitted until 2pm, not just the 12pm restriction - https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=DFD&dest=BMH&rte=703&ldn=2&tkt=SSR

To a large extent the allocation of fares to operators is designed to reflect whose services a traveller is likely to spend the majority of the journey on. Different operators have taken different decisions about how to manage revenue and loadings.

 

[Mortonhall]

OK, I understand now! Thanks for explaining how it works (and satisfying my curiosity about why it works that way).

 

[Watershed]

In theory, the above rules apply as @JonathanH says - SWR are entitled to apply whichever restriction code they wish to the ticket, and in this case they've used one which bars all travel before 12:01.

However in practical terms, I doubt that Southeastern staff will be particularly familiar with these restrictions, as they will see far more Southeastern-set Super Off-Peak tickets (which are generally much less restrictive) than SWR-set ones.

We have often seen barrier or onboard staff try to apply the Off-Peak restrictions that their operator normally has for travel to/from London, to all tickets - not recognising that it can be different for tickets beyond London. Generally this involves denying people travel at times of day their tickets are actually valid, but in this case it might work in your favour...

Which is to say, you'd probably get away with travelling on the 11:35 from Blackheath - but obviously it'd be a risk. The ticket wouldn't technically be valid and if you came across an incredibly clued-up member of staff you could rightfully be charged the difference to the cheapest valid fare (i.e. the Off-Peak fare).

That being the case the only advice we can give you is to buy split tickets (e.g. using PAYG or paper tickets for the first part) or to buy the Off-Peak Return.

 

[Mortonhall]

To be clear, I want to pay the correct fare! I just thought I might be paying an unnecessary fare - which I now know isn't the case.

 

[Starmill]

In theory, the above rules apply as @JonathanH says - SWR are entitled to apply whichever restriction code they wish to the ticket, and in this case they've used one which bars all travel before 12:01.

Indeed. However, if the customer has bought the ticket already and checks the Southeastern website for the information about the Southeastern train there's nothing qualified on there to suggest that there's a need to consult the national rail enquiries page.

In fact the information is pretty clear:

Super Off-Peak Tickets
Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with a few more time restrictions is called Super Off-Peak. They are valid for travel after 10a m

It doesn't say Super Off Peak tickets to and from London from stations served by Southeastern, it just says Super Off Peak tickets. It also says they're valid at any time on weekends and bank holidays. In other words there's not really any room for doubt, but if there were doubt then it'd be pretty easy to find in favour of the customer. If the ticket type were Evening Out or Off Peak then you couldn't rely on that information of course. You also can't reasonably rely on that if the train you're using isn't run by Southeastern, so again, it's important to take care.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

Which is to say, you'd probably get away with travelling on the 11:35 from Blackheath - but obviously it'd be a risk. The ticket wouldn't technically be valid and if you came across an incredibly clued-up member of staff you could rightfully be charged the difference to the cheapest valid fare (i.e. the Off-Peak fare).

If the customer were happy to pay an excess if demanded and then submit a complaint later to ask for the extra money back the risk is quite minimal. In the event of a charge they'd need to be prepared to spend hours of their free time on the complaints case, and also potentially sending the complaint to the Rail Ombudsman.

I personally wouldn't do any of this myself because I don't want to have to waste so much of my time. I would probably use pay as you go and buy a different ticket from London rather than messing around.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed. However, if the customer has bought the ticket already and checks the Southeastern website for the information about the Southeastern train there's nothing qualified on there to suggest that there's a need to consult the national rail enquiries page.

If they do check the National Rail website for the restriction code 'UP' shown on their ticket, the fact that it isnt valid until 12pm is reasonably clear.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/up/

Outward Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 12:01.

As much as there are super off-peak tickets not valid on Southeastern well into the day, there are clearly other super off-peak tickets valid with no restrictions on their services, so relying too much on their website works both ways.

All we are really agreeing on here is that Southeastern, and a number of other train operators, aren't very helpful on their website about ticket validity for journeys beyond their network.

For what it's worth, I think the ability of SWR to place somewhat mean restrictions on connecting services, such that the SWR train someone can take is later than they could use if travelling only on SWR, does seem a bit unfair on the passenger.

 

[Starmill]

If they do check the National Rail website for the restriction code 'UP' shown on their ticket, the fact that it isnt valid until 12pm is reasonably clear.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/up/


As much as there are super off-peak tickets not valid on Southeastern well into the day, there are clearly other super off-peak tickets valid with no restrictions on their services, so relying too much on their website works both ways.

If I were designing a website I'd certainly not be writing things like that! However, that's a tad moot - what's written isn't ambiguous so I'd be completely comfortable to rely on it if I had to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

All we are really agreeing on here is that Southeastern, and a number of other train operators, aren't very helpful on their website about ticket validity for journeys beyond their network.

For a start the SWR website. It heavily implies that the midday restrictions apply from London Waterloo.

You can travel on any train arriving at London Waterloo after 14:00. Tickets aren’t valid on trains that depart:

• Before 12:01, and between 16:00 and 19:00 from London Waterloo;
• Before 12:01, and between 16:00 and 19:04 from Vauxhall;
• Before 12:01, and between 16:09 and 19:09 from Clapham Junction;

If you’re not travelling to London, you can travel any time after 12:00.

The latter point is ambiguous about journeys via London, but it seems likely it doesn't apply here. The arrival at London Waterloo doesn't apply either as you'd be using the Underground for that on your cross-London transfer. So on that basis even the SWR site implies something very different to their own code.

 

[Mortonhall]

There is a new wrinkle to this I've just noticed, which is that it is actually (very slightly) cheaper for me to do the following:

- buy a Super Off Peak Return from Blackheath to Bournemouth
- use PAYG to get from Blackheath to Waterloo East
- start using my Super Off Peak ticket at Waterloo
- and then return the whole way using the Super Off Peak ticket (the travel times work without any issue for the return journey).

I'm allowed to do that - right? There's no "your whole journey needs to have been theoretically possible" rule? (I've checked that the ticket type does allow me to start my journey at an intermediate station, so the question is just about the impact of the timing restrictions.)

 

[Watershed]

Yes, that would be fine too. There is no rule requiring the journey to have been possible from the origin.

 

[yorkie]

There is a new wrinkle to this I've just noticed, which is that it is actually (very slightly) cheaper for me to do the following:

- buy a Super Off Peak Return from Blackheath to Bournemouth
- use PAYG to get from Blackheath to Waterloo East
- start using my Super Off Peak ticket at Waterloo
- and then return the whole way using the Super Off Peak ticket (the travel times work without any issue for the return journey).

I'm allowed to do that - right? There's no "your whole journey needs to have been theoretically possible" rule? (I've checked that the ticket type does allow me to start my journey at an intermediate station, so the question is just about the impact of the timing restrictions.)

Yes you can do that.

Indeed, our forum ticketing site has an option to search for cheaper fares where it may be cheaper to use PAYG to cross London. It's in the advanced options.

Where available, you would get a through itinerary (which may be useful as evidence of the contract) and the option of an e-ticket PDF (one handy PDF covering multiple pages) which some people may appreciate the convenience of.