Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

[mjc]

What non-stop services? What freight goes through fast enough that it could overtake a passenger train?

I’m pretty sure a snail could overtake the EMR Crewe-Derby line, but that’s not necessarily the point, it can be the other way around that the middle road could be used to hold the freight while, say, the Avanti comes into the platform then overtakes on departure.

 

[Zomboid]

There are loops just to they north of the station that can serve exactly that purpose, if necessary.

 

[edwin_m]

Modern freight trains are generally longer than passenger so it's usually impossible to hold them on the "through line" of a station with simple platform loops. The loops would need to be much longer, and even if there is space to do that, higher-speed turnouts would be needed to avoid slowing the passenger train, or they would have to be realigned with the "straight" track towards the platform.

 

[The Planner]

I’m pretty sure a snail could overtake the EMR Crewe-Derby line, but that’s not necessarily the point, it can be the other way around that the middle road could be used to hold the freight while, say, the Avanti comes into the platform then overtakes on departure.

Its way too short to do that and as others have said, you aren't lacking in freight loops.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

I’d be interested to hear what additional services were added as a result of the improved capacity. I recall when the works were being done it was also heralded as enabling faster journies, but do t remember any actually getting faster…

It was capacity, you wouldn't be getting a second Liverpool or Stirling service without it.

 

[Falcon1200]

Not quite everything stops, although I think it’s just one Avanti service Man-Eus in the morning which passes through now.

Yes, 1R19 0700 Manchester Piccadilly-Euston is booked non-stop from Stockport to Euston via Stoke.

 

[AndrewE]

What non-stop services? What freight goes through fast enough that it could overtake a passenger train?

Actually, where there is a stopping passenger service sharing the line with freights (as will be the case from Kings Norton to Camp Hill) I suspect that modern freights could outpace the local...

The middle road at Rhyl (and those at Bangor) are basically useless on 364 days of the year. All trains stop there so the only time that they are ever used for regulation purposes is if a late-running train is run fast. You'd be better off stripping them out and providing higher speed approaches to the platforms. Passenger loops are needed in places where not everything stops.

I wasn't saying it gets used, just that it is an example of one surviving. I did see the Chirk logs go non-stop through Chester a few weeks ago... but RTT shows it through platform 4 to allow a crew change!

 

[Class15]

Actually, where there is a stopping passenger service sharing the line with freights (as will be the case from Kings Norton to Camp Hill) I suspect that modern freights could outpace the local...

This already happens every day on the North London line, and your prediction is certainly correct!

 

[Zomboid]

From a comparison of two trains, freight is faster than the local passenger train between Southcote Jn and Basingstoke, too. Only by 3 minutes (20 Vs 23), but I would have said that that route isn't one with especially closely packed stations.

 

[mjc]

It was capacity, you wouldn't be getting a second Liverpool or Stirling service without it.

I don’t know the detail of the Liverpool service, but the Sterling will only call at Nuneaton in the West Midland then off via Crewe to Preston so given the comment was about the works improving capacity between Birmingham and Manchester I’m struggling to see how that’s achieved.

 

[AndrewE]

I don’t know the detail of the Liverpool service, but the Sterling will only call at Nuneaton in the West Midland then off via Crewe to Preston so given the comment was about the works improving capacity between Birmingham and Manchester I’m struggling to see how that’s achieved.

because if a northbound Manchester-via-Stoke train crossed (turned right) on the level it would take out at least 1 express path on the up fast, maybe 2. And I can see that taking out the diamond crossing over the UF is a bonus..

 

[mjc]

because if a northbound Manchester-via-Stoke train crossed (turned right) on the level it would take out at least 1 express path on the up fast, maybe 2. And I can see that taking out the diamond crossing over the UF is a bonus..

Thanks, that’s interesting, so the real benefit was allowing through trains from London to Northwest without reducing the Manchester-Birmingham capacity rather than truly improving capacity between those points?

I’ve found this from Network Rail: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....0m-railway-upgrade-between-stafford-and-crewe

Once complete, the £250m programme will facilitate the introduction of new timetables between 2015 and 2017 and create the capability to deliver:

• Two extra trains per hour (off peak, each direction) between London and the north west of England
• One extra train per hour (each direction) between Manchester and Birmingham
• One extra freight train per hour (each direction) through Stafford

Nine years later I think we’re still waiting for that one extra train per hour between Manchester and Birmingham…

 

[The Planner]

Nine years later I think we’re still waiting for that one extra train per hour between Manchester and Birmingham…

It creates the capability, it didn't say it was going to deliver a service. Very different things.

 

[Brubulus]

It creates the capability, it didn't say it was going to deliver a service. Very different things.

I assume there isn't the capacity to get the train into Manchester.

 

[Trainbike46]

Thanks, that’s interesting, so the real benefit was allowing through trains from London to Northwest without reducing the Manchester-Birmingham capacity rather than truly improving capacity between those points?

But it did deliver new services - just not the one you were hoping for

Nine years later I think we’re still waiting for that one extra train per hour between Manchester and Birmingham…

It would be nice if it gets added, and I think it should, but XC has been a disaster over the last ten years and certainly isn't and wasn't in a position to offer extra services, if they were the ones planned to deliver it.

It creates the capability, it didn't say it was going to deliver a service. Very different things.

It did deliver new services, just not from Birmingham to Manchester, but instead between other destinations that share part of the route.

 

[mjc]

But it did deliver new services - just not the one you were hoping for

It would be nice if it gets added, and I think it should, but XC has been a disaster over the last ten years and certainly isn't and wasn't in a position to offer extra services, if they were the ones planned to deliver it.


It did deliver new services, just not from Birmingham to Manchester, but instead between other destinations that share part of the route.

Ok, so which new services have been delivered?

 

[Zomboid]

Wasn't it said upthread that the second Liverpool and the Lumo Stirling are possible because of the flyover?
It'll improve the slow trains too as they won't be waiting to cross the fast lines to get towards Stone.

 

[Trainbike46]

Ok, so which new services have been delivered?

Extra london-liverpool services have started, and more will follow in September and December.
The London-Stirling services that Lumo will start operating in the near future.

 

[mjc]

Extra london-liverpool services have started, and more will follow in September and December.
The London-Stirling services that Lumo will start operating in the near future.

So one new service in 9 years, and in the context of a discussion about capacity between Birmingham and Manchester absolutely nothing. Well worth the £250m and disruption

 

[Krokodil]

Nine years later I think we’re still waiting for that one extra train per hour between Manchester and Birmingham…

Would be better off running full-length services first, rather than messing around with 4/5 car Voyagers.

 

[ac6000cw]

Well worth the £250m and disruption

Yes, I think it was, to the railway as a whole - and I suspect without it, maybe Birmingham - Manchester services via Stoke might have had to be reduced to make space for (probably more remunerative) services towards Crewe and beyond.

 

[mjc]

Yes, I think it was, to the railway as a whole - and I suspect without it, maybe Birmingham - Manchester services via Stoke might have had to be reduced to make space for (probably more remunerative) services towards Crewe and beyond.

Maybe, but as I’ve already said this work was cited as improving capacity between Birmingham and Manchester, in that context all its achieved so far is possibly saved a service from being axed to make way for one London-Liverpool service.

 

[The Planner]

So one new service in 9 years, and in the context of a discussion about capacity between Birmingham and Manchester absolutely nothing. Well worth the £250m and disruption

Yes it was. The value of West Coast paths is greater. Considering most of it was offline, the relative disruption was trivial.

 

[Zomboid]

It's also helped with reliability and flexibility on both the fasts and slows by eliminating flat crossings.
On its own grade separation of one junction isn't going to change the world on a busy route like the WCML. Getting 1 extra tph all day every day isn't bad going for what is actually a relatively minor intervention.

 

[The Planner]

I assume there isn't the capacity to get the train into Manchester.

Depends on what the service actually is. If you wanted to extend the Stoke stopper as an example its already there.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don’t think that there has been a significant reference to freight so far. There is always significant churn over the years so it’s hard to make a direct ‘now’ and ‘then’ comparison but the Norton Bridge works undoubtedly increased the fluidity and capacity of the Slow Lines. The scheme also included a long loop facility at Stafford that provides a valuable capability for overtaking/ re-sequencing. The intermodal market on the WCML has been generally buoyant.

 

[ac6000cw]

I don’t think that there has been a significant reference to freight so far. There is always significant churn over the years so it’s hard to make a direct ‘now’ and ‘then’ comparison but the Norton Bridge works undoubtedly increased the fluidity and capacity of the Slow Lines. The scheme also included a long loop facility at Stafford that provides a valuable capability for overtaking/ re-sequencing. The intermodal market on the WCML has been generally buoyant.

I agree, and on the ECML the Werrington Junction grade-separation scheme and re-signalling/upgrading of the ex-GN GE Joint Line on to Doncaster did the same for freight on the ECML (hence releasing capacity for passenger services).

 

[Falcon1200]

Well worth the £250m and disruption

Regardless of whether additional trains are added or not, eliminating a flat junction has massive benefits for timetabling and day-to-day running.

 

[AndrewE]

Regardless of whether additional trains are added or not, eliminating a flat junction has massive benefits for timetabling and day-to-day running.

i.e. resilence. A late train in 1 direction can't delay one in the other direction getting through the junction.

 

[jayiscupid]

Honestly if I live in Reading and need to go to Manchester. I'd rather use extra time taking a direct train over going through the mess that is London terminals.

I live near Reading and have always gone via London to Manchester to avoid the mess (and expense) of XC.

For years, I could normally get advance first-class tickets for less than a standard class ticket on CrossCountry, so for me, it's been worth the hassle with the tube from Paddington to Euston.

 

[Mgameing123]

I live near Reading and have always gone via London to Manchester to avoid the mess (and expense) of XC.

For years, I could normally get advance first-class tickets for less than a standard class ticket on CrossCountry, so for me, it's been worth the hassle with the tube from Paddington to Euston.

Understandable. The way things are ran now I would do the same thing. But that’s mainly because the government doesn’t want to invest into the very busy CrossCountry route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==

I live near Reading and have always gone via London to Manchester to avoid the mess (and expense) of XC.

For years, I could normally get advance first-class tickets for less than a standard class ticket on CrossCountry, so for me, it's been worth the hassle with the tube from Paddington to Euston.

Understandable. The way things are ran now I would do the same thing. But that’s mainly because the government doesn’t want to invest into the very busy CrossCountry route.