GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[cactustwirly]

Quite a few cancellations yesterday because of train faults.
Very frustrating, Basingstoke was an hourly service all afternoon and evening

How many spare sets does Reading have?
Seems like too many were sent West, I always thought sending those west 3 car 165s was a mistake

 

[CarltonA]

The Windsor service is often crowded, very occasionally GWR supply a three car. The other Thames Valley branches seem to cope. Marlow can only take two cars anyway. Basingstoke is important but XC also serve the line. Overall the Reading based turbo services do a good job IMO. I only travel off peak however.

 

[Anonymous10]

Quite a few cancellations yesterday because of train faults.
Very frustrating, Basingstoke was an hourly service all afternoon and evening

How many spare sets does Reading have?
Seems like too many were sent West, I always thought sending those west 3 car 165s was a mistake

Plenty of cancellations in the west too, the issue is the fleet is too small and is aging. The west mainly uses 2 car 165s and 3 car 166s.

 

[Snow1964]

Quite a few cancellations yesterday because of train faults.
Very frustrating, Basingstoke was an hourly service all afternoon and evening

How many spare sets does Reading have?
Seems like too many were sent West, I always thought sending those west 3 car 165s was a mistake

Trowbridge had about 30 cancellations yesterday after midday, a few were due to staff, but many were due to lack of serviceable trains.

Does rather suggest the aging 165+166 fleet (and they are now 33-36 years old, with no replacements yet ordered) are being overstretched and worked beyond the level they can be made available for service.

Like all things that are near end of lifespan, they simple can't manage the levels of availability they did when younger and more reliable. Maybe things will ease when 175s are all in service (the first few seem to be replacing castle HSTs), but at moment 165+166 seem to be diagrammed at about 110-120% of the ability to source and fit spare parts, and get them in right place in a serviceable state. Hence the silly numbers of cancellations.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Friday was terrible for the Reading based Turbos. 2/3 Basingstoke diagrams were cancelled, as were a number of Gatwicks. 1 and a half hour Gaps on the Basingstokes all afternoon, and a few similar gaps between Gatwicks, including the 18:21 and 18:54 both canned.

The Windsor branch unit and the Bedwyn shuttle unit also both failed in the afternoon.

 

[Kite159]

Friday was terrible for the Reading based Turbos. 2/3 Basingstoke diagrams were cancelled, as were a number of Gatwicks. 1 and a half hour Gaps on the Basingstokes all afternoon, and a few similar gaps between Gatwicks, including the 18:21 and 18:54 both canned.

The Windsor branch unit and the Bedwyn shuttle unit also both failed in the afternoon.

It says something when SWR get given special stop orders to stop at the intermediate stations on the evening weekday Reading services due to GWR collapsing.

Just a shame the order for new trains got binned by Labour when the 172 production line was still open, as things could be so much different these days.

 

[FGW_DID]

Quite a few cancellations yesterday because of train faults.
Very frustrating, Basingstoke was an hourly service all afternoon and evening

How many spare sets does Reading have?
Seems like too many were sent West, I always thought sending those west 3 car 165s was a mistake

Weekdays the requirement is:
165(2) 10 from 13
165(3) 10 from 13

So 20 from 26 required leaves 6 spare:
1 away at Wolverton - Air Cooling overhaul
1 away at Doncaster - C4 work
The remaining 4 will be eaten up by scheduled work: exams, component changes (Engines, transmissions etc), tyre turning etc plus the daily failures that can be for a varied multitude of reasons.

Funny old thing when the temperature starts to hit the mid 30s in the Thames & Kennet Valleys and the internal temps in a Turbo can be 40+ degrees there is a whole raft of failures relating to cab / saloon air cooling (mainly cab!)
As I’ve posted on another thread, it’s not climate control, there is no way to set a required temperature so all the system does is lower the ambient temperature by at least 5-7 degree. If it’s 40+ degrees in the cab, the air cooling is possibly only going to drop it to 33+.
what doesn’t help is that no-one gives it a chance to work, a unit can be sat in the sidings or in a platform for a couple of hours baking away, then the engines get started, 2 mins later, unsurprisingly it’s not like a fridge and the unit gets failed!

The West is probably finding the same issue with the 166s as we had when they were at Reading. A/C deemed not to be working (it wasn’t the best to be fair) windows therefore get opened, more hot air enters, A/C has to work even harder, resulting in lower power from the engines, resulting in the unit being failed for either no a/c or low power!

Don‘t forget the Turbos that were sent West were to have been replaced in the East by the 769s.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Weekdays the requirement is:
165(2) 10 from 13
165(3) 10 from 13

So 20 from 26 required leaves 6 spare:
1 away at Wolverton - Air Cooling overhaul
1 away at Doncaster - C4 work
The remaining 4 will be eaten up by scheduled work: exams, component changes (Engines, transmissions etc), tyre turning etc plus the daily failures that can be for a varied multitude of reasons.

Funny old thing when the temperature starts to hit the mid 30s in the Thames & Kennet Valleys and the internal temps in a Turbo can be 40+ degrees there is a whole raft of failures relating to cab / saloon air cooling (mainly cab!)
As I’ve posted on another thread, it’s not climate control, there is no way to set a required temperature so all the system does is lower the ambient temperature by at least 5-7 degree. If it’s 40+ degrees in the cab, the air cooling is possibly only going to drop it to 33+.
what doesn’t help is that no-one gives it a chance to work, a unit can be sat in the sidings or in a platform for a couple of hours baking away, then the engines get started, 2 mins later, unsurprisingly it’s not like a fridge and the unit gets failed!

The West is probably finding the same issue with the 166s as we had when they were at Reading. A/C deemed not to be working (it wasn’t the best to be fair) windows therefore get opened, more hot air enters, A/C has to work even harder, resulting in lower power from the engines, resulting in the unit being failed for either no a/c or low power!

Don‘t forget the Turbos that were sent West were to have been replaced in the East by the 769s.

We've been away at Dawlish the last week and seen 165 and 166s. Mostly 3 cars, a few 2 car 165s, we went to Paignton on Friday on 166201,to say it was hot inside is an understatement! Hopefully the arrival of 175s will ease pressure on these trains.

 

[cactustwirly]

Weekdays the requirement is:
165(2) 10 from 13
165(3) 10 from 13

So 20 from 26 required leaves 6 spare:
1 away at Wolverton - Air Cooling overhaul
1 away at Doncaster - C4 work
The remaining 4 will be eaten up by scheduled work: exams, component changes (Engines, transmissions etc), tyre turning etc plus the daily failures that can be for a varied multitude of reasons.

Funny old thing when the temperature starts to hit the mid 30s in the Thames & Kennet Valleys and the internal temps in a Turbo can be 40+ degrees there is a whole raft of failures relating to cab / saloon air cooling (mainly cab!)
As I’ve posted on another thread, it’s not climate control, there is no way to set a required temperature so all the system does is lower the ambient temperature by at least 5-7 degree. If it’s 40+ degrees in the cab, the air cooling is possibly only going to drop it to 33+.
what doesn’t help is that no-one gives it a chance to work, a unit can be sat in the sidings or in a platform for a couple of hours baking away, then the engines get started, 2 mins later, unsurprisingly it’s not like a fridge and the unit gets failed!

The West is probably finding the same issue with the 166s as we had when they were at Reading. A/C deemed not to be working (it wasn’t the best to be fair) windows therefore get opened, more hot air enters, A/C has to work even harder, resulting in lower power from the engines, resulting in the unit being failed for either no a/c or low power!

Don‘t forget the Turbos that were sent West were to have been replaced in the East by the 769s.

The last service of the day from Basingstoke to Reading was cancelled potentially leaving people stranded, that could have been me. I luckily made other plans, I was originally going to use the service.

I understand it's a hot weekend and they are old units, however it doesn't leave a great impression

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Weekdays the requirement is:
165(2) 10 from 13
165(3) 10 from 13

So 20 from 26 required leaves 6 spare:
1 away at Wolverton - Air Cooling overhaul
1 away at Doncaster - C4 work
The remaining 4 will be eaten up by scheduled work: exams, component changes (Engines, transmissions etc), tyre turning etc plus the daily failures that can be for a varied multitude of reasons.

Funny old thing when the temperature starts to hit the mid 30s in the Thames & Kennet Valleys and the internal temps in a Turbo can be 40+ degrees there is a whole raft of failures relating to cab / saloon air cooling (mainly cab!)
As I’ve posted on another thread, it’s not climate control, there is no way to set a required temperature so all the system does is lower the ambient temperature by at least 5-7 degree. If it’s 40+ degrees in the cab, the air cooling is possibly only going to drop it to 33+.
what doesn’t help is that no-one gives it a chance to work, a unit can be sat in the sidings or in a platform for a couple of hours baking away, then the engines get started, 2 mins later, unsurprisingly it’s not like a fridge and the unit gets failed!

The West is probably finding the same issue with the 166s as we had when they were at Reading. A/C deemed not to be working (it wasn’t the best to be fair) windows therefore get opened, more hot air enters, A/C has to work even harder, resulting in lower power from the engines, resulting in the unit being failed for either no a/c or low power!

Don‘t forget the Turbos that were sent West were to have been replaced in the East by the 769s.

Maybe it’s perverse logic, but I can’t help wondering whether in super hot weather it would be better to turn off the Cl165 saloon air con and just unlock all the windows? Then the driving cab air con system might actually work and the passengers will at least get a good breeze when the train is moving?

For obvious reasons this wouldn’t be a good idea with the 166 fleet, unless you want grilled passengers.

 

[800301]

Maybe it’s perverse logic, but I can’t help wondering whether in super hot weather it would be better to turn off the Cl165 saloon air con and just unlock all the windows? Then the driving cab air con system might actually work and the passengers will at least get a good breeze when the train is moving?

For obvious reasons this wouldn’t be a good idea with the 166 fleet, unless you want grilled passengers.

While this might sound a bit silly, I think it would be much better just to put a vent on the cab door so the saloon air con can cool down the cab as it does a pretty good job of it when the cab door is open

 

[jimm]

Maybe it’s perverse logic, but I can’t help wondering whether in super hot weather it would be better to turn off the Cl165 saloon air con and just unlock all the windows? Then the driving cab air con system might actually work and the passengers will at least get a good breeze when the train is moving?

For obvious reasons this wouldn’t be a good idea with the 166 fleet, unless you want grilled passengers.

As FGW_DID said yet again just above, the Class 165s DO NOT have air conditioning.

They are fitted with air cooling, which does not dehumidify the air being drawn into the system in the way that air con does.

The 166 have a sort of air conditioning system but as it was an afterthought fitted as best as could be managed on to the existing 165 design, it left a lot to be desired when the 166s were new - and still does 32 years on.

And opening the windows on a 165 - or even the limited number available on a 166 - results in people being stuck in a howling gale, sometimes with added exhaust fumes in the rear coaches, so not necessarily much of an improvement on being roasted alive.

 

[Anonymous10]

As FGW_DID said yet again just above, the Class 165s DO NOT have air conditioning.

They are fitted with air cooling, which does not dehumidify the air being drawn into the system in the way that air con does.

The 166 have a sort of air conditioning system but as it was an afterthought fitted as best as could be managed on to the existing 165 design, it left a lot to be desired when the 166s were new - and still does 32 years on.

And opening the windows on a 165 - or even the limited number available on a 166 - results in people being stuck in a howling gale, sometimes with added exhaust fumes in the rear coaches, so not necessarily much of an improvement on being roasted alive.

Especially if going through the Severn tunnel...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As FGW_DID said yet again just above, the Class 165s DO NOT have air conditioning.

In the context of ‘it failing in extreme hot weather’ this is irrelevant really.

 

[FGW_DID]

But the point I’m making is that, it’s not climate control, you can not set the temperature. All the air con / air cooling does is lower the ambient temperature Which means the system can still be working but because the internal temperature is that high, even with it dropping 7 degrees, it’s still oppressively hot.

 

[SWT_USER]

Did FGW ever propose fitting proper air conditioning to the Turbo fleet, as Chiltern did?

 

[Snow1964]

But the point I’m making is that, it’s not climate control, you can not set the temperature. All the air con / air cooling does is lower the ambient temperature Which means the system can still be working but because the internal temperature is that high, even with it dropping 7 degrees, it’s still oppressively hot.

Yes it's very clumsy system, doesn't maintain a (comfortable) temperature, just changes what's outside, so often too cold first thing in morning with icy drafts, and insufficiently cold on a warm day.

It also doesn't seem to have proper graduated size ducting, so more air seems to come out of some vents than others. So get uneven temperatures in different parts of the saloons.

It doesn't help that they are powered by a diesel engine, which is basically a big hot lump of cast iron bolted to the floor, radiating heat into the floor.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Did FGW ever propose fitting proper air conditioning to the Turbo fleet, as Chiltern did?

Yes, it was on the menu of items FG submitted for the DfT to consider under the DA3 award. Angel, who had spent a fortune “upgrading” the system on the 166 fleet, was not keen and so the DfT said no.

The GWR 165 fleet, however, did get Chiltern style air-con but someone very senior in GWR didn’t want all windows to be fixed, which I still think was a mistake. I am of the school that says punters opening windows is bad for any air con system and if the air con doesn’t work in the saloon, you fail the set.

 

[The exile]

if the air con doesn’t work in the saloon, you fail the set.

Fine if there’s another one sitting ready to replace it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Not strictly on-topic as I’m on a 158 (travelling passenger) but relevant to the air-con discussion. The air con was rattling away when I boarded and a nearby window was open. On the move there was some noticeable breeze but overall the air in the saloon was moist and a bit stuffy. I asked the guard to shut the window and he did so, and now 20 mins later the coach is nice and cool/dry and the air con is much quieter. Might fail later in the day but functioning for now at least and not hastening its failure!

 

[brad465]

Apologies if this has been asked before in this rather large thread: how often do 165s move between Reading and Bristol/Exeter, so as to operate passenger diagrams out of the other area? There appear to be 2 diagrams (1 in each direction) between St Philips Marsh and Reading Traincare Depot on Saturdays on a "Runs as required" basis, but haven't found any others.

 

[cactustwirly]

Apologies if this has been asked before in this rather large thread: how often do 165s move between Reading and Bristol/Exeter, so as to operate passenger diagrams out of the other area? There appear to be 2 diagrams (1 in each direction) between St Philips Marsh and Reading Traincare Depot on Saturdays on a "Runs as required" basis, but haven't found any others.

Rarely as the maintenance isn't shared, Reading based 165s are on a different maintenance program to the Bristol based ones.

Occasional moves at weekends for strengthening I believe but they have to come back east shortly after.

Sometimes Bristol based units will come over temporarily if required but only for a short duration

 

[FGW_DID]

Apologies if this has been asked before in this rather large thread: how often do 165s move between Reading and Bristol/Exeter, so as to operate passenger diagrams out of the other area? There appear to be 2 diagrams (1 in each direction) between St Philips Marsh and Reading Traincare Depot on Saturdays on a "Runs as required" basis, but haven't found any others.

Rarely as the maintenance isn't shared, Reading based 165s are on a different maintenance program to the Bristol based ones.

Occasional moves at weekends for strengthening I believe but they have to come back east shortly after.

Sometimes Bristol based units will come over temporarily if required but only for a short duration

3x165 2 cars go West every weekend to work passenger services. 2 come from Oxford Sidings & couple to the third, which comes off Reading TCD, in Reading Station and then head off to Bristol TM:

Realtime Trains | 3C50 0450 Oxford Up Carriage Sdgs to Bristol Temple Meads | 09/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C50 0450 departure from Oxford Up Carriage Sdgs to Bristol Temple Meads on 09/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

All three will return to Oxford Sidings on the Sunday evening.

All the 16x are on the same maintenance regime, Reading recently sent a couple of Turbos over to SPM for B Exams to be carried out due to the workload with the Class 387 exams & other maintenance work.

Any other moves between Reading & Bristol are just on an ad hoc as required basis. Should a 166 find itself back at Reading for whatever reason, it will just be employed on a 165 3 car diagram until it gets pinged back West.

 

[JN114]

Any other moves between Reading & Bristol are just on an ad hoc as required basis. Should a 166 find itself back at Reading for whatever reason, it will just be employed on a 165 3 car diagram until it gets pinged back West.

And to add; as “fun” as it is playing trains, 166s in particular to the East is a massive headache to engineering as there are quite a few bespoke bits on the 166s which Reading don’t hold stock of any more. I recall recently a 166 made it eastwards to help out with shortages; but ended up stopped broken on depot for most of its week-long visit waiting a particular bit to be sent up from Bristol to fix it.

It is largely settled as

165101-103, 108, 130-136
166201-221

Live in the West

165104-107, 109-114, 116-129, 137

Live in the East

3x 2 cars go over as FGW_DID describes above every summer weekend; in Winter it is reduced to 1x 2 car. These will always be from the East pool; again significant effort is expended to try and keep the fleets stabilised as above.

Paths exist to transfer units on an ad-hoc basis; and it does happen from time to time as availability dictates. Generally West have more “spare” units on a Weekday; whereas the East fleet is run right up to (and arguably beyond) its theoretical availability ceiling. So it isn’t unheard of for the odd Bristol interloper to turn up on the Gatwicks or Basings. Again as previous we try and make sure these are 165s rather than 166s; just to make maintenance easier.

Those interested in such moves generally pick up on them themselves and post in this thread when they happen; without one of those of us “in the know” actually needing to contribute other than to expand on reasoning perhaps.

 

[CarltonA]

How long is it since a 165 was borrowed from Chiltern? I recall one of theirs appeared on a Basingstoke service a while back.

 

[CR165022]

How long is it since a 165 was borrowed from Chiltern? I recall one of theirs appeared on a Basingstoke service a while back.

Last time would have been in FGW days surely?

 

[FGW_DID]

How long is it since a 165 was borrowed from Chiltern? I recall one of theirs appeared on a Basingstoke service a while back.

Last time would have been in FGW days surely?

We had 165002 on hire from Chiltern back in July 2014. I think that was the last time.

 

[Pep and co]

Can't help that 165130 has been out of action for what must be close on two years? Last mentioned on another thread as awaiting parts at SPM September 2024.....

 

[Sporty60]

Drifting off topic, but I usd to travel between Cheltenham and Weymouth and one day an on hire SW unit turned up.
I felt as if I was travelling business class compared to the uncomfortable GWR units.

 

[Siemens Staines]

165101-103, 108, 130-136
166201-221

Live in the West

165104-107, 109-114, 116-129, 137

Live in the East

It looks like 131 has replaced 137 at Reading, at least in the short term. 137 went West yesterday morning, but 131 was added to 5A96 this evening, even though it looks like 137 was at Temple Meads at the time. But, there may have been other factors involved.