Indeed. Some thing like the efficiency of fossil fuel generated electricity
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Can't afford a snack at the services
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
- Thread starter MattA7
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I’d like to see the government have a more forceful hand with pavement charging gulleys.
New £63 million boost for Britain's electric vehicle revolution
Funding will help to build a fairer, cleaner future where every family can benefit from cheaper, greener transport.www.gov.uk
Also of note, the ability for large EV charging locations to advertise on road signs (similar to existing motorway service station signs):
On a recent drive, I noticed one A-road services that had a large petrol/diesel type sign showing the kWh charge rate (42p I think) also. Clearly with a rate like that, you'd want to advertise it - and if all locations had signs (perhaps being forced to) then maybe that would also help rates fall. I mean, who wants to advertise 89p to EV motorists?!
Currently some councils offer it but others seem completely disinterested. My local one has a partnership with BP Pulse for 7kW units in some car parks, but at 59p/kWh (or 44p/kWh with a subscription) there’s little incentive for those without off street parking to switch to electric.
I don't want to pay a premium to stand a greater chance of getting to charge. In fact, I actively queue (sometimes for 10-20 minutes) to buy petrol at Costco at 10-15p per litre less. In any case, there are plenty of EV charging locations now - although (see above) the lack of road signs makes it hard to just 'happen upon one' if you don't have some sort of app or do some research before heading off.
I am pretty sure Waze pricing info is crowd sourced, so won't change as soon as it changes at the station - but it's better than nothing*. And, no, I don't want to drive around looking at signs to decide where to fill up! I get the benefit of having signs to advertise prices, which might help competition, but why waste fuel going from one to another?
* My car also shows prices, using TomTom integrated into the car, but you do need to pay for this feature as part of TomTom Live.
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Can't afford a snack at the services
Very true. I'm someone who only uses the toilet, although I have sometimes had a coffee or burger at McDonald's where I can use my points and avoid the motorway service tax. Keep out of WH Smith and you'll be fine, mostly.
I appreciate that there will be exceptions, but I do generally stop for a toilet break, leg stretch, social media catch-up and eat a snack I've already got with me (even if that's just a snack bar). To be fair, I don't drive hundreds of miles often these days, so I can very easily properly eat before or after a drive. I've managed many, many years of not spending huge sums of money in motorway services, whether that's coffee, food OR fuel.
If you’re going to make that point the well to wheel efficiency of petrol is actually 20%, not 30%. So throwing away 80%. And only 30% of our electricity comes from fossil fuels.
My car does about 750 miles on a tank of diesel. I don't drive around looking for fuel. If I drive past somewhere that is particularly cheap, I might stop with a half full tank, if I'm not in a hurry. Its a balance of the saving against the time it takes for an extra stop.
I don't qualify for Costco membership, and if I did, the closest ones to East Anglia are Chingford, Stevenage and Milton Keynes.
If the Waze prices are wrong, it will only be by a few pence a litre.
When I get an electric car, then charging away from home will need more planning. A year ago, in post 3,337 of this thread I did a search for 100kW or faster chargers in Norfolk on Zapmap.
This is the updated view. There are more in Norwich which are shown if you zoom in. There are new ones in Swaffham, Aylsham, Kings Lynn and Acle.
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If you use Electroverse you can see them all, even at smaller scales. Perhaps better for like for like because (as you say) ZapMap starts to hide them as soon as you zoom out.
On a more practical level, unless you don’t have the ability to home charge, if you live in East Anglia it’s very unlikely you’ll need to charge in East Anglia. I only charge close to home if I’ve made a big mistake!
There will also be a lot more chargers at slower speeds (not seen because of selecting only rapid or ultra chargers). Sure, that's not exactly enticing if it's 7kWh and is going to take 3-6 hours to fully charge - but depending on what you're doing, it may well be convenient to slow charge while doing something else - or just being happy with adding 15-30 miles for an hour or so charge. If your car can do 22kWh AC, you may well get three times that in the same time - and likely pay less than the fast chargers.
And I saw a video today that shows Tesla now doing fast charging for just 20p in Manchester. I am no Tesla/Elon fan, but if Tesla lowers prices and makes a few others do so also, we might just get a lot more price cuts coming. Heck, even Shell and BP might join in (okay, probably not).
And I saw a video today that shows Tesla now doing fast charging for just 20p in Manchester. I am no Tesla/Elon fan, but if Tesla lowers prices and makes a few others do so also, we might just get a lot more price cuts coming. Heck, even Shell and BP might join in (okay, probably not).
For me, a relative had a fall and was taken to hospital. I left immediately and then spent the day driving around East Anglia. If I had been been starting out with a fully charged electric car, then it would probably been fine. With a part-charged car, I would not have wanted to be planning around where I could get a charge.
Last year, a relative had driven 200 miles to Sheringham in an Audi with a big battery, but poor efficiency. evdatabase.com quotes the range as 225 miles. He didn't need to charge en-route, and had charging at his accommodation. He did have to top up a little to get there. If there had been a fast charger, then a few minutes would have been enough, as it could charge at 150kW, which would add 360 miles of range in an hour, so 10 minutes would have been fine. Instead he left his car at a 7kW charger, and met up for lunch. He then had to go back to move his car.
Practically, my Mondeo has another year of MOT. Cars in my budget are getting longer ranges, and there are more chargers and faster chargers. By the time I switch, I think it will be a solved problem.
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Narrowgauge725
Member
I have MG ZS EV not the cheapest or very expensive EV but significantly more expensive than its petrol equivalent. Yesterday started for 100% 299 on guesometer. Did 185 miles mainly on dual carriageway/motorway. Got there with 50 miles to spare a couple of short rapid charges whilst doing some shopping. I had planned to just do one enough to get half way back today before a meal break. Had meal break sat next to 12 chargers but didn’t need to charge. No extra time journey down very cheap on cheap rate electricity back about the same price as petrol.
GusB
Established Member
Seriously, how often do people make journeys of 750+ miles in one go? You're going to have to stop for a break at some point whatever propulsion system your car has.
Ah, we're back the the old "relative in trouble and need to be able to get there in five minutes" rubbish. I also think that you may be missing the word "if" from your post - it doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise.
If my Auntie Mabel who lives 300 miles away took a turn and I had to drop everything to get to her bedside, I'd still have to stop somewhere to refuel my petrol car. I'm lucky in that there are still a few 24-hour filling stations within a few miles but, if was to live in a more rural location where there were no 24-hour outlets, I'd still have to ensure that I had enough juice in the tank to get me to the nearest one. I don't keep a full tank of petrol at all times; I re-fuel as and when I'm in town and generally when prices are favourable. If I had to make a short-notice dash to be with a sick relative, I know that I've got enough in the tank to get me to somewhere where I can fill up.
As it turns out there are EV chargers in my village (the last petrol station closed down years ago) which, if I had an EV, would at least give me enough juice to get to another location that allowed a bigger/faster charge.
If it's a genuine emergency that you're responding to, you'll stop wherever you have to in order to ensure that your vehicle has enough juice (electric or ortherwise) and that you can continue your journey.
I think a lot of people will just plug in when they get home so they start every day at 100%, but even if you did start with a part-charge then assuming the state of charge is low (which it would be if you felt you had to charge) then you're likely getting the best charge rate. 10-15 minutes should be quite significant in terms of miles added. Obviously I get that the stress in such a situation might make you feel like it's an hour, but even if you had to rush to a petrol station the time difference isn't going to be that much.
When you're filling up, you can only do that. At least when you're charging you could be planning your route or speaking to family/relatives before getting on with the drive.
Ultimately, I think keeping the battery charged at all times (ABC - Always Be Charging) is something most people would do, and one of the things you CAN do compared to an ICE car.
Do you regularly drive 750mi in a single stint without any breaks at all? That's nearly the full Land's End to John o'Groats drive.
I'm not even sure it's desirable to have drivers doing that distance in a single day. Picking a route which is mainly motorway to be generous, that's 12 hours of driving in the UK.
For a family emergency or something yeah I could see it, but it shouldn't be a regular occurrence.
We currently have EVs capable of 480mi on one charge. Whack another hundred on that and I think that's actually all we need.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think EVs preventing people doing ridiculous stints without any sort of break is a good thing to be honest. Most people are not so stupid and irresponsible, so wouldn't be affected, and those few that are can be brought in line by being forced to charge.
While it's not a legal requirement, a good guideline as a minimum is the breaks stipulated by tachograph rules for professional drivers, but really those who are not professional drivers should be taking more and longer breaks, particularly where the activity of the day isn't driving, e.g. you've spent a whole day hillwalking and so are already a bit tired and are heading home afterwards.
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The 750 mile thing there was "I don't need to refill very often" rather than "I have a strong bladder"
Yes you are right. I edited it to "If I had been been starting out with a fully charged electric car..."
Yes. However, if I had bought a Kia Niro EV with a 227 mile real world range with 15 minute fast charge in November 2023, the asking price on Autotrader would have been £33k. That would need to to be charged it in more siutations than a Kia EV3 with a 293 mile real world range with a 15 minute fast charge which is £34k today (I want a sunroof which means getting a GT-Line S).
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Once you need to make a stop every two hours or so to go to the toilet and have a drink or food, there's really zero difference between charging while doing something else, or just doing something else and then fuelling. You can't eat or pee when filling up with petrol (or at least you probably shouldn't!).
I also don't believe there are many people who wouldn't stop and use that bit of dead time to check their phone given how addicted we all are. Again, you can't do that when filling up at a petrol station.
It's more likely the petrol station fill up actually takes longer, but given you need to plug in your car and potentially use an app to start the charge (might be cheaper than contactless) let's be fair and call them equal.
So the method of refuelling doesn't really make any difference unless your car has a range so low it needs attention before you do.
However, for people who only drive locally or maybe have more than one car, it's still fine to get a car with sub-100 miles.
I also don't believe there are many people who wouldn't stop and use that bit of dead time to check their phone given how addicted we all are. Again, you can't do that when filling up at a petrol station.
It's more likely the petrol station fill up actually takes longer, but given you need to plug in your car and potentially use an app to start the charge (might be cheaper than contactless) let's be fair and call them equal.
So the method of refuelling doesn't really make any difference unless your car has a range so low it needs attention before you do.
However, for people who only drive locally or maybe have more than one car, it's still fine to get a car with sub-100 miles.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Used Leafs and the Dacia Spring do indeed make good runarounds for two-car families (which is most families these days) - the latter, indeed, is specifically designed for that purpose. OK, a bit less useful for the 18 year old to borrow to go on holiday with their mates, but that can be worked around.
Modern CCGT power stations, which most of them are, get up to 60% efficiency to grid, with about 5% transmission losses on top. No ICE vehicle is close to that
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And even if 100% of the UK's grid was coal fuelled, EVs would still get pollution away from where it causes most harms - at the point of use in urban areas.
People forget that it's not just about carbon. Indeed it's not even primarily about carbon, it's about breathing clean, safe air. London is so much better now, and continues to get better as EVs increasingly become the norm there. Other towns stink of old diesel fug in comparison.
And noise. You can really tell the difference in central London where a lot of vehicles are electric already
You don't. Just put the destination into the car and it will tell you where to stop for 10 minutes.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you spent the day driving around East Anglia (presumably while the relative was being treated) then:
1. You have a strong bladder if you did so without at least stopping to use the toilet;.
2. You were not being a responsible driver by failing to take adequate breaks.
If you did in fact take some breaks to pop in on said relative and/or for food, the toilet etc, you had charging opportunities.
Of course (assuming you have a driveway or similar) you would have left with a full charge, unlike if you had an ICE car where you might have had to stop to fuel.
There are more toilets in Norfolk than there are chargers
Narrowgauge725
Member
If you do a search I think you will find the opposite
With regular change of driver 500 miles is not ridiculous. Most vehicle, ICE or EV, are designed to be driven by people other than the owner
I don't think so. Off the top of my head there are Tesla supercharger sites at Thetford, Norwich and Kings Lynn. Gridserve at Norwich. A brand whose name I forget at Necton. Shell and Ionity on the A11, several BP garages, and others that I'm not aware of. In addition, many town car parks have at least one combined unit offering DC and AC charging.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd like to see you demonstrate how to safely change driver without stopping. And most peoples' bladders won't handle 500 miles without relief.
It's just a non issue.
500 miles is going to take at least 8 hours, and pretty much everyone will stop two or three times, one of which will likely be for a meal of some sort. Anyone not doing so is an edge case
RailWonderer
Established Member
Tell that to Americans in the midwest who drive for 19 hours and take one or two breaks. They'll tell you with a big smile in a chirpy voice how long they drive for. You can get used to longer drives between breaks if you do it more often and are well rested when you start and pack food and drinks with you. That said I don't recommend it unless you have no other options.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They shouldn't be doing it either. Though to be fair driving a long way in the US is much more relaxing than here, with low speed limits and super-quiet roads outside the urban areas, and basically every car automatic. But even so it exceeds the capability of humans to pay attention, so just because they do it doesn't mean they should.
There are basically no circumstances under which there are no other options, given that one of the options is always "not making the journey at all". Only refugees who are making it due to a direct threat to their safety lack that option; in every other situation it is an option albeit potentially not a palatable one.
For all but refugees fleeing a threat to their safety, if the options are "drive more than 2-3 hours without a break" or "don't go", "don't go" is the only correct option. Doing otherwise is extremely selfish as it shows great disregard for the safety of other road users.
However I am really struggling to envisage a situation outside of the "racing to get to a dying relative's hospital bed 500 miles away" one (which is really a variant of the "RUK Standard Minority", because almost nobody ever actually* needs to do that) where one needed to make a 500 mile journey but could not spare an hour or so for two short breaks and one longer one, in all of which one could charge one's car.
* In most cases there's more warning than that, or they'd not still be alive after you'd spent a whole day driving, or you'd just live closer to them; indeed you would probably be best off flying in most cases on a journey of that length.
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There are more 3-pin sockets in Norfolk than toilets....
I assume you did mean public toilets, but are you counting each individual toilet or the facilities? There are many places you can stop that don't have toilets, although I know there are schemes where shops and pubs allow free use of their facilities with the council paying a small fee. Sadly this means many toilets have limited opening hours, so if you needed to drive to that sick relative at 3am then you may be out of luck.
But, back to topic....
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Maybe that's part of why about 4 or 5 times more people die on the roads per capita in the USA than the UK?