Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Wallsendmag]

No, I haven't. Are you able to enlighten me?

A system that takes taps from cards wherever presented and works out want the customer has to pay. Oh and TfL contactless only works on Cubic gates.

 

[MikeWh]

That sounds like the system TfL use. I'm wondering how feasible it would be to work with, say:

A London Bus
Then a tube
Then a mainline train to Birmingham
A WM suburban train
And a local bus
Then repeat in reverse later in the day

It would be a pretty complex system if it was to incorporate every train/bus/tram/tube/etc in the whole country.

 

[cav1975]

Aha you haven't heard of the Tap Converter then?

Presumably it is this https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/p...ing-technology-contract-awarded/68435.article

 

[Wallsendmag]

Presumably it is this https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/p...ing-technology-contract-awarded/68435.article

That's the one

 

[jon0844]

I think given the complex nature of our railways, I wouldn't ever expect a nationwide contactless system but I would expect all of the Passenger Transport Executive Areas to have contactless and ideally place train and bus under the same system for capping and hopper fares. Just London's would be much much bigger than the rest, covering all of the South East/ Home Counties and Most of the East. Thameslink just happens to give a good indicator of how big this area would be. Whether that means a contactless journey that starts in a London and South East zone but ends in a West Midlands zone, why couldn't it be possible some day?

I would expect a range of extension tickets similar to boundary zone 6 to be readily available as this system develops too. It would all be much simpler if we moved to a distance/ zonal fares system though.

There are many logistical issues, including how you safeguard getting paid if the traveller has no money. That risk increases a lot if someone can start to travel throughout the UK with no way to check the account status (basically, the industry can only blacklist cards after previous issues).

However, assuming you have the card reading equipment at every station, every bus has a reader on a 4G/5G connected machine, every member of staff has a RID that is connected in real-time and so on - you can begin to keep track of all travel and then work out fares over large areas. There might be some guesswork if someone misses a tap, but there will be ways to deal with that - especially if you have capping and discounts in place.

You obviously have to invest a lot of money to do all this, potentially making buses tap in/tap out (more equipment, passenger education etc), and you need to work out how the money gets divided up - but it could definitely be done.

There might also have to be restrictions on what trains you could travel on, potentially having a surcharge for Intercity trains for example - although maybe a simple surcharge could cover that. Maybe you can buy that on an app to show with your card, or even tap your card somewhere onboard to 'upgrade' your journey.

I'm merely thinking out loud here, but I can't see anything that stops a nationwide travel system that could work on ANY form of travel. Just like any small business can take cards with ease today, the benefit is that the equipment is already available. The security and connectivity is already there for taking payments, so it's just having the desire and funding to adapt...!

Oh, and besides railcard discounts that can be added to a card, there's also the need to have a way for child fares to be charged on contactless.. and that opens a can of worms with the potential for abuse. Would a child need to tap with a card that's clearly branded as a child account? But is the person carrying the card the card owner or borrowing it? If we can't do child fares, what does a family do when travelling?

 

[Snow1964]

That sounds like the system TfL use. I'm wondering how feasible it would be to work with, say:

A London Bus
Then a tube
Then a mainline train to Birmingham
A WM suburban train
And a local bus
Then repeat in reverse later in the day

It would be a pretty complex system if it was to incorporate every train/bus/tram/tube/etc in the whole country.

Seem to be able to use contactless for rail, trams, buses, riverboats etc in Netherlands

 

[JonathanH]

Seem to be able to use contactless for rail, trams, buses, riverboats etc in Netherlands

Is that all coordinated on one underlying system? What of the fact that we already have multiple underlying contactless systems already?

 

[Sonic1234]

If we can't do child fares, what does a family do when travelling?

Back to paper, same with group discounts. Even in the London Zones you have to revert to paper for certain discounts.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is that all coordinated on one underlying system? What of the fact that we already have multiple underlying contactless systems already?

There is one underlying system, "OVPay", administered by Translink Systems Limited, a company owned by the public transport operators for the purpose of administring the OV-Chipkaart and OVPay

There are multiple manufacturers for check-in/Check-out devices though. The only gates I've seen are the Thales ones.

 

[PeterC]

Oh, and besides railcard discounts that can be added to a card, there's also the need to have a way for child fares to be charged on contactless.. and that opens a can of worms with the potential for abuse. Would a child need to tap with a card that's clearly branded as a child account? But is the person carrying the card the card owner or borrowing it? If we can't do child fares, what does a family do when travelling?

Child fares are the problem.
You could register a card as "child" in much the same way as applying a railcard discount. Misuse is possible just as misuse of a railcard is possible. RPIs will need to be able to check in real time even if the overhead would slow ticket gates too much.

Or you could require a special smart card, as already exists on TfL. Easier to police but more complex to issue. If you go that way then why not smart railcards?

If you are determined to go totally paperless then group fares can be app based. Set the number of adults and children and tap in with your phone. I get forced to use apps to park my car so why not to get a ride on a train?

I hope that Oval is being designed to accommodate change although I am not confident. There is more money for consultants and suppliers in a full rebuild.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Not much use for people who wanted to travel to Brighton, though. They’d have to break their journey to tap out, and resume their journey on a later train.

 

[Belperpete]

Seem to be able to use contactless for rail, trams, buses, riverboats etc in Netherlands

The Netherlands seems to have a very simple fare system. From what I can tell, you pay a flat single fare, regardless of time of day. No cheap advances, no reductions for returns, etc.

In this country we have a very complex fare system, that allows people to buy significantly reduced fares. As well as advances, off peak and day returns, different operator fares. So for example, you can get reduced fares from Birmingham to Euston if you are prepared to travel with WMT for part of all of the journey, changing at Rugby or Milton Keynes for example.

I am not sure that if we were to adopt a simpler fare system such as the Netherlands, it wouldn't just result in everyone paying higher fares. I seem to recall that Oyster introduction involved a significant initial subsidy, and I am not convinced that any government would be prepared to undewrite an equivalent fare subsidy to support a national scheme. I worry that, as on the LNER trial, it would just strip out the inconvenient (for the operators) cheap fares.

 

[Trainbike46]

The Netherlands seems to have a very simple fare system. From what I can tell, you pay a flat single fare, regardless of time of day. No cheap advances, no reductions for returns, etc.

on the railways, all fares are singles, based on the number of "Tariff Units", which are approximately 1 km of distance on rail, but not always. Time based discounts are available (at 20% and 40% discount), but only to people who have a (paid for) abonnement. NS is currently experimenting with something akin to an advance, the PrijsTijd Deal, but it is only available as an eTicket.

A map for calculating the number of tariff units is available here (main map) and here (zoomed in sections of the map).

A pdf including the price of full price, discounted price, and season tickets depending on the number of tariff units is available here. The minimum charge is 8 Tariff units, and any journeys shorter than that are charged at that rate. The charge per tariff unit decreases with increasing numbers of Tariff units. The maximum number of Tariff Units charged for is 200. If there are multiple routes with the same operator, it always charges the number of Tariff Units for the shortest route irrespective of what route is actually taken. Doubling back is allowed without extra charge if the NS journey planner suggests it.

On buses, trams, and metro price is based on a fixed amount + an amount per kilometre. Once again, unless you've got an abonnement there's only one price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2025 ==

Discounts for returns used to exist but where removed when the OV-chipkaart was introduced.

In the Oval/TfL situation, caps provide the equivalent of the discount for return tickets (and Travelcards).

 

[Belperpete]

In the Oval/TfL situation, caps provide the equivalent of the discount for return tickets (and Travelcards).

I was under the impression that for most journeys, you had to make more then one outward and return journey before the relevant cap would kick in?

 

[Trainbike46]

I was under the impression that for most journeys, you had to make more then one outward and return journey before the relevant cap would kick in?

I believe this is true in the TfL zones.

Most of the Oval zone has had its single fares reduced to half of the old day return, so it would be more accurate to say that the return fares are provided by the single fares (priced at half the old return, so no disadvantage compared to the return), and travel cards are provided by the caps.

 

[crablab]

The Netherlands seems to have a very simple fare system. From what I can tell, you pay a flat single fare, regardless of time of day. No cheap advances, no reductions for returns, etc.

There are now time restricted tickets which are bought in advance for a discount.
There are also more "complex" discount products (ie. subscriptions) which can be added to your OV Chipkaart

 

[Watershed]

I was under the impression that for most journeys, you had to make more then one outward and return journey before the relevant cap would kick in?

If you have an Oyster card with a Railcard applied, even just one journey between/via Zone 1 and one of the outer zones can reach the daily off-peak cap, if travelling in the weekday evening peak. This is especially true for travel to/from Heathrow on the Elizabeth line due to the premium applied to the single fares.

 

[A S Leib]

Looking at brfares, I can't see any return or single Southend to London fares permitting travel with c2c or Greater Anglia. Apart from Travelcard fares and season tickets, 'via Pitsea' seems to be the only option. Is that an oversight or related to the rollout of Oval? I've looked at 'Southend Central or Victoria' to London terminals as well as Southend Central to Fenchurch Street.

 

[Watershed]

Looking at brfares, I can't see any return or single Southend to London fares permitting travel with c2c or Greater Anglia. Apart from Travelcard fares and season tickets, 'via Pitsea' seems to be the only option. Is that an oversight or related to the rollout of Oval? I've looked at 'Southend Central or Victoria' to London terminals as well as Southend Central to Fenchurch Street.

That's correct, there haven't been 'interavailable' single/return tickets between Southend and London Terminals since the dawn of privatisation. The fares that previously existed from Southend Stations were abolished in order to allow better segmentation of revenue between the franchises that were being separated out. Since then,

Of course nowadays the direction of travel is the opposite, but the fares have diverged so much in the intervening years that I doubt a reasonably priced interavailable fare could be reached, unless there were some major changes to the way fares are priced on either route.

 

[greaterangrier]

I'm very confused by the fares being charged from c2c stations to Southeastern stations.

Take the following fares (all peak)
e.g. Dartford - Benfleet = £19.20 CPAY Peak (Source: TfL fare finder)
Dartford - Benfleet = £ 26.80 CPAY Peak and Anytime Day Single (Source: BRFares)
Anomaly: Paper ticket is much more expensive than contactless fare for Oval area journey. Both journeys price at illogical amounts.
Price when journey is split: £16.40 (~10 split locations available)

Dartford - Grays via Z1 = £10.60 CPAY Peak (Source: TfL fare finder)
Dartford - Grays ✠ANY PERMITTED = £26.80 CPAY Peak and Anytime Day Single (Source: BRFares)
Anomaly: Paper ticket is much more expensive than contactless fare for Oval area journey

Dartford - Leigh-on-Sea = £35.70 CPAY Peak (Source: TfL fare finder)
Dartford - Leigh-on-Sea ✠VIA PITSEA = £24.20 CPAY Peak and Anytime Day Single £24.20
Anomaly: Contactless is much more expensive than contactless fare for Oval area journey. Both journeys priced at illogical amounts.
Price when journey is split: £16.40 (~10 split locations available)

In fact, it seems like every fare between every pair of stations is wrong in some way!

Are passengers actually being charged these incorrect amounts?

 

[Taunton]

That's correct, there haven't been 'interavailable' single/return tickets between Southend and London Terminals since the dawn of privatisation. The fares that previously existed from Southend Stations were abolished in order to allow better segmentation of revenue between the franchises that were being separated out.

Surprising this didn't cause an upset. In BR days there was considerable inter-travel between the two routes, particularly at times of disruption, but also from the considerable number who live between the two routes and found it convenient to use different directions. There were a number of London routes like this - the three Dartford lines had common tickets for stations an equal distance out from Charing Cross.

However, both operators here seem to manage with segmentation between themselves and the District Line or Elizabeth Line without issue.

 

[Watershed]

Surprising this didn't cause an upset. In BR days there was considerable inter-travel between the two routes, particularly at times of disruption, but also from the considerable number who live between the two routes and found it convenient to use different directions. There were a number of London routes like this - the three Dartford lines had common tickets for stations an equal distance out from Charing Cross.

However, both operators here seem to manage with segmentation between themselves and the District Line or Elizabeth Line without issue.

I agree - I'm surprised it was allowed to be pushed through. I think it happened just before the Train Operating Units (TOUs) were actually privatised though, which meant it couldn't be attributed to the newly privatised TOCs themselves.

Back in the day, of course Elizabeth line services were part of the same franchise as the Southend Victoria services so there was no revenue sharing issue there.

As for the District line, there had been revenue sharing/allocation agreements between BR and LT going back many years. Then as now, interavailability only allowed BR ticket holders to enter or exit at the 'joint' stations, with revenue sharing presumably based on the assumption that the majority of BR ticket holders would take the faster BR services anyway.

 

[PeterC]

In fact, it seems like every fare between every pair of stations is wrong in some way!

Are passengers actually being charged these incorrect amounts?

Those journeys sound pretty niche, how many passengers are affected?

 

[MikeWh]

Are passengers actually being charged these incorrect amounts?

Passengers will be charged the fares shown in the TfL Single Fare Finder, or other sites powered by TfL Open Data. This does not include brfares.com.

Also, Dartford to Grays is not an Oval flow as both accept Oyster.

 

[JonathanH]

Price when journey is split

There are now many places on the Contactless structure, particulary those crossing London, where higher fares are charged for a journey without an intermediate split.

Part of this derives from difference in the application of the zonal structure within London (eg zone 6 to zone 1 is the same as zone 6 to zone 6 via zone 1) and the way fares have been set up for Oval destinations which cross London, where the existing fares don't benefit from this zonal quirk.

It is one of the things that the price setters won't want to give up, for fear of the revenue hit.

 

[Taunton]

I agree - I'm surprised it was allowed to be pushed through. I think it happened just before the Train Operating Units (TOUs) were actually privatised though, which meant it couldn't be attributed to the newly privatised TOCs themselves.

This sort of thing arises from the way something is privatised, or even before that is done from discussions with potential bidders.

"Now then Buggins, go and get privatisation expressions of interest".

"Um, yes, Sir Doo-Dah".

"And don't forget, we need the maximum Premium, so old Grumpy in the Commons can get credit from the Treasury and his tick for the Lords when he steps down ...".

----- -----

"... Now then, potential franchisees, how much Premium for the Fenchurch Street lines as is".

"£5 million per year".

"What if I say we'll stop joint ticket acceptance between the District Line and you?"

"Ah, well in that case £25m. But it will cause grumbles".

"And what if I say no more joint ticketing to the rest of the system".

"£45 million. But that will cause adverse comments in the press".

"And in particular what if I say the end of any joint agreement with the Liverpool Street ba5tards ... er, I mean current partners?".

"£ 65 million. Although that's against everything in the political manifesto".

"Now, what was that Sir Doo-Dah said ... ?".

 

[Starmill]

I agree - I'm surprised it was allowed to be pushed through. I think it happened just before the Train Operating Units (TOUs) were actually privatised though, which meant it couldn't be attributed to the newly privatised TOCs themselves.

Back in the day, of course Elizabeth line services were part of the same franchise as the Southend Victoria services so there was no revenue sharing issue there.

As for the District line, there had been revenue sharing/allocation agreements between BR and LT going back many years. Then as now, interavailability only allowed BR ticket holders to enter or exit at the 'joint' stations, with revenue sharing presumably based on the assumption that the majority of BR ticket holders would take the faster BR services anyway.

The season ticket from Southend did continue to be available. It still is today, I don't think it ever went away.

If there used to be AAA season tickets from other stations they may have been lost. I don't know.

 

[Sleepy]

The season ticket from Southend did continue to be available. It still is today, I don't think it ever went away.

If there used to be AAA season tickets from other stations they may have been lost. I don't know.

I wonder how many are sold today as the 7 day season via Shenfield is currently £30 cheaper.

 

[JonathanH]

Whilst this thread is still live, I note no further progress with the roll out of further Oval fares from September.

Is there anywhere where the TfL style Contactless readers are currently being installed?

If 49 further stations are to get PAYG Contactless by the end of the year, there will need to be an installation programme and some fare changes in the last four months of 2025.

 

[TEW]

Whilst this thread is still live, I note no further progress with the roll out of further Oval fares from September.

Is there anywhere where the TfL style Contactless readers are currently being installed?

If 49 further stations are to get PAYG Contactless by the end of the year, there will need to be an installation programme and some fare changes in the last four months of 2025.

They've been installed recently at Clandon and Horsley, not sure if any other SWR stations have gained them too.