Beckenham Junction: potential location for an extended Bakerloo Line to terminate?

[465fan]

I

Wait, is there another plan to extend the Bakerloo to New Cross as well?

The Bakerloo Line extension from memory would be from Elephant, to a new station near Burgess Park, then another north of Queens Road Peckham, then one at New Cross Gate, and then at Lewisham.

 

[cle]

I look at what you get at Hayes, even in the most ideal world, and the maximum is probably 8tph. That still precludes Beckenham Junction, and if you are living in some parts of the world near there, to go to Beckenham Junction and have that other onward connectivity (especially as this would surely make Beckenham Jn a stop on fast trains finally), is massive.

And of that heavy rail 8tph, even if its 4tph fast to Charing Cross, and 4tph via Lewisham to Cannon Street, and you still miss a lot. To be able to get to somewhere like New Cross Gate, which is a gateway to East London and also the likes of Crystal Palace (that bit more important for people getting out at Lewisham, going to the Bakerloo, and getting to NXG which they can't do now), is huge. To then have Elephant & Castle and the Thameslink and Northern lines, is equally positive.

You get to Waterloo and Charing Cross, and your journey time has probably barely degraded, but the frequency is the selling point. As you say, you're not now trying to go down into the Tube at those places for Piccadilly Circus, Oxford Circus, Baker Street and Paddington: you're already on the train. Journeys to Heathrow Airport become massively simpler.

I didn't live on the Hayes line, I lived on another Metro route out of Cannon Street / Charing Cross. But if I did live on the Hayes line, I'd be all over this. Look at what Crossrail did for London, and then imagine what this whole project does along the Old Kent Road, through those parts of 'South Bermondsey' and 'North Peckham'. Even at New Cross Gate, it removes probably 50% of people coming up on the Overground from South London, giving that vital capacity in the core section of the ELL from Surrey Quays to Dalston.

For Lewisham, and therefore the wider South Eastern metro area, it's just as big. All those flats, now getting a proper Metro service. Catford station reunited (you hope), Beckenham Junction actually getting meaningful connectivity to places like Lewisham or up to the East.

It's hardly needing to be sold. It's just got to be done.

Agree with all of this. I do remember when the odd fast called at BJ (and Herne Hill too) - even in the time Eurostar was messing things up!

I would think it was doable today - and the “irritated of Bromley” crowd might be more forgiving of a tube link.

One other thing you didn’t mention was the DLR at Lewisham, although that interchange exists today for Hayes line people. But it would be finally metro / no timetable. And Beckenham Jn itself doesn’t have that one DLR change.

 

[465fan]

Agree with all of this. I do remember when the odd fast called at BJ (and Herne Hill too) - even in the time Eurostar was messing things up!

I would think it was doable today - and the “irritated of Bromley” crowd might be more forgiving of a tube link.

One other thing you didn’t mention was the DLR at Lewisham, although that interchange exists today for Hayes line people. But it would be finally metro / no timetable. And Beckenham Jn itself doesn’t have that one DLR change.

If we are going to make progress in the future, Herne Hill will be rebuilt, and you can make the entire corridor from Victoria to Bromley South a 'bit more Metro'. Stop the trains that are running 'fast' at both Herne Hill and Beckenham, so that a web of faster connections starts to open up, including for Blackfriars, South London, a Bakerloo Line extension and such.

Of course, I would be the first to say that they could remodel Herne Hill and you should then run the services from Victoria via Brixton down then to Tulse Hill, and into South London (lack of direct trains frequently from places like Brixton to the likes of Streatham is criminal), and then the services from Blackfriars just go to Orpington. Given that would just mean the Catford Loop and Penge East stopping trains are all Thameslink and homogenous 700, would just be another benefit.

 

[I'm here now]

The Bakerloo Line extension is one of the most important projects for South London.

The reason it was so vital pre-Covid was to actually free up the 6/7 paths per hour at high peak into London that are currently 'wasted' by the Hayes line.

The Bakerloo Line needs to be fully-funded through to Hayes. TfL have ridiculous ideas, such as extending it to Bromley South. No.

It should be a Watford Junction to Hayes service (LO can then be reduced to shuttle-status between Euston and Queens Park, considering the Bakerloo takes people into Central London), with Beckenham Junction as well. There's a bay platform there made for it, and if you re-jig the "carriage line" on the Spur from New Beckenham, it could easily accommodate 8tph with no need to even build a second platform on the Waitrose car park.

What is the Bakerloo Line frequency? About 20tph? It probably needs to get to 32tph, if it will then be a behemoth that is consuming people from the likes of Catford, Lewisham (and the entire Southeastern Metro), and all of those stations like New Cross Gate (and the Overground network). So you'd be at 8tph to Beckenham, 16tph to Hayes, and probably 8tph terminating at Lewisham if they built a third platform.

Given the nature of the Chatham Main Line, I think you would then be entirely right to surmise that the 'fast' services from Victoria, would then need to call at Beckenham Junction before continuing into Kent. Chiefly, the services would probably need to be the Ashford 'slow' services, and the Gillingham 'slow' services, running a standard half-hourly service all day to feed the Bakerloo.

And then your peak-time services from Blackfriars to Beckenham would be relegated to a service only as far as Kent House, unless of course by then the sheer numbers of people using Metro services on the Victoria - Herne Hill - Bromley arc have so massively reduced as they switch to the Bakerloo that the frequency becomes unimportant.

How’s extending (at a later stage) it Bromley south such a ridiculous idea - it’s a quite big built up area for more ridership, isn’t it?

 

[PGAT]

How’s extending (at a later stage) it Bromley south such a ridiculous idea - it’s a quite big built up area for more ridership, isn’t it?

Because you have high frequency tube trains sharing the same tracks with fast mainline trains. I’m pretty sure TfL have no plans to go beyond Beckenham Junction, Bromley South is only shown as an example of onward connections

 

[Stephen42]

Because you have high frequency tube trains sharing the same tracks with fast mainline trains. I’m pretty sure TfL have no plans to go beyond Beckenham Junction, Bromley South is only shown as an example of onward connections

During option consideration there was one to Bromley Town Centre, it was a further tunnelled section as no workable way to reuse the lines. It's sensible to consider that extra catchment, the Beckenham Junction option was preferred due to high cost of the further extension mostly paralleling an existing route.

 

[465fan]

How’s extending (at a later stage) it Bromley south such a ridiculous idea - it’s a quite big built up area for more ridership, isn’t it?

To attempt to find a modern solution, acceptable to ORR (especially in signalling and platform height senses - see stepping up out of Bakerloo trains north of Queens Park), and also to try and fit all those extra trains in through Shortlands to what would have to be a bay platform at Bromley South, would be ludicrous. Especially if a number of trains operate between Beckenham Junction and Bromley; and people coming from the London direction could have equally bailed out at Catford Bridge and got something from Catford to save some time.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

If we are going to make progress in the future, Herne Hill will be rebuilt, and you can make the entire corridor from Victoria to Bromley South a 'bit more Metro'. Stop the trains that are running 'fast' at both Herne Hill and Beckenham, so that a web of faster connections starts to open up, including for Blackfriars, South London, a Bakerloo Line extension and such.

Of course, I would be the first to say that they could remodel Herne Hill and you should then run the services from Victoria via Brixton down then to Tulse Hill, and into South London (lack of direct trains frequently from places like Brixton to the likes of Streatham is criminal), and then the services from Blackfriars just go to Orpington. Given that would just mean the Catford Loop and Penge East stopping trains are all Thameslink and homogenous 700, would just be another benefit.

No-one’s going to pay for that remodelling, unfortunately - Herne Hill is going to stay as-is.

 

[465fan]

No-one’s going to pay for that remodelling, unfortunately - Herne Hill is going to stay as-is.

Even without the remodelling, there is a performance gain as, in the up direction, you can simultaneously bring in and depart a train from Tulse Hill to Vic and Penge East to Blackfriars. There is also a marginal performance gain if a train from Victoria to deepest Kent is being followed by a 'stopper' out of Herne Hill and not from Victoria, so you'd have an extra 90 seconds to play with before Shortlands Junction.

 

[I'm here now]

To attempt to find a modern solution, acceptable to ORR (especially in signalling and platform height senses - see stepping up out of Bakerloo trains north of Queens Park), and also to try and fit all those extra trains in through Shortlands to what would have to be a bay platform at Bromley South, would be ludicrous. Especially if a number of trains operate between Beckenham Junction and Bromley; and people coming from the London direction could have equally bailed out at Catford Bridge and got something from Catford to save some time.

Right, I see…

 

[frankmoh]

How’s extending (at a later stage) it Bromley south such a ridiculous idea - it’s a quite big built up area for more ridership, isn’t it?

Main line trains from Beckenham Junction already go to Bromley South, so TfL can save money by terminating at BJ and expecting riders to change platforms.

There is also the option of going from Lewisham and down the line to Grove Park and therefore Bromley North.

 

[Zomboid]

Seems that there are plenty of interchange options for getting to Bromley South.
Beckenham Junction does seem like a good idea for the Bakerloo extension though, I don't think there's another direct to the Chatham line option.

 

[465fan]

Main line trains from Beckenham Junction already go to Bromley South, so TfL can save money by terminating at BJ and expecting riders to change platforms.

There is also the option of going from Lewisham and down the line to Grove Park and therefore Bromley North.

I don't think Lewisham and staying in tunnel to Grove Park, with the sole intention of going to Bromley North, does much. The need to open up around Catford, New Beckenham / Junction, Elmers End and down through to Hayes is too great.