Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The changes REALLY need to be in before end of August so they can at least help with the college students, if not there have lost another years worth of passengers. They just keep on shotting themselves in the foot.

I’m not following your logic on this one. The college is already served and most of the potential users who would go to the college would in theory have free bus passes, no?

 

[overthewater]

I’m not following your logic on this one. The college is already served and most of the potential users who would go to the college would in theory have free bus passes, no?

There has already been public protest about passengers from Armadale and Blackridge, Which was highlighted in this thread. I dare say most of the potential users are fed up with the poor overall service I bet there opting to get cars. The bus passes are only as good as the service provide.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

There has already been public protest about passengers from Armadale and Blackridge, Which was highlighted in this thread. I dare say most of the potential users are fed up with the poor overall service I bet there opting to get cars. The bus passes are only as good as the service provide.

To a point, but surely the hospital and centre links are more important? More money in it. I’m just confused with your theory. Based on that logic the changes should’ve been done now?

A lot of planning goes into service changes. A lot of that us users will never notice. Such a big change is better being standardised across the business as it means everyone is on the same page. Good luck with doing a full service change in the middle of the festival.

Your original point was that if the changes weren’t done by the colleges starting, it would cost them passengers. The simple truth is that that wouldn’t be case. When I was at college which was within the last 5 years or so, people who wanted to use public transport did, and those who didn’t want to and had other options did so. Other markets are more important in this case.

 

[overthewater]

To a point, but surely the hospital and centre links are more important? More money in it. I’m just confused with your theory. Based on that logic the changes should’ve been done now?

A lot of planning goes into service changes. A lot of that us users will never notice. Such a big change is better being standardised across the business as it means everyone is on the same page. Good luck with doing a full service change in the middle of the festival.

Your original point was that if the changes weren’t done by the colleges starting, it would cost them passengers. The simple truth is that that wouldn’t be case. When I was at college which was within the last 5 years or so, people who wanted to use public transport did, and those who didn’t want to and had other options did so. Other markets are more important in this case.

It isn't either or.. its can still be both, especial since there close to each other the Centre, the hospital and the college. All the markets are important, the youth of today are passengers tomorrow and 30 years time, but if using public transport is more hassle than what its worth even when its free its useless...

Why are you saying a big change, its already been made clear that is not going to be the case, they will be additional journeys and what looks like an extra service to operate via Livingston Village but its nothing major overall.
See post #15318

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Why are you saying a big change, its already been made clear that is not going to be the case, they will be additional journeys and what looks like an extra service to operate via Livingston Village but its nothing major overall.
See post #15318

A service change across the whole business is a BIG change. I never specifically mentioned Lothian Country. You did.

You’ve missed my point completely. Most of this we don’t see. But I’m sure to the drivers and operational staff who make it all happen, their shift rotas being changed is a pretty substantial thing to do, no?

 

[buslad1988]

Lothian will make changes to its networks as/when they see fit - they have the status quo in the Edinburgh/Lothians and if passengers switch to cars in the meantime between changes, then so be it.

Changes are usually limited to twice per year; and they’ll try to do all parts of the business at once.

What puts passengers off more though is constant changes… if you reorganise your shifts with employers/family routines around buses and the times/routes are changing every couple of months then this will ultimately be what puts you off using the bus.

Whilst it’s interesting for enthusiasts to be speculating and hoping for regular service changes (even when once one major change has launched) think about those who actually live on the routes - they’re dealing with this day in, day out… not just going off the irregular observation that a service is always late, always packed etc.

 

[overthewater]

A service change across the whole business is a BIG change. I never specifically mentioned Lothian Country. You did.

You’ve missed my point completely. Most of this we don’t see. But I’m sure to the drivers and operational staff who make it all happen, their shift rotas being changed is a pretty substantial thing to do, no?

But surly if its just additional journeys etc, there not going to rip up the existing rota just to add in 3 extra buses with the new staff?

Lothian will make changes to its networks as/when they see fit - they have the status quo in the Edinburgh/Lothians and if passengers switch to cars in the meantime between changes, then so be it.

Changes are usually limited to twice per year; and they’ll try to do all parts of the business at once.

What puts passengers off more though is constant changes… if you reorganise your shifts with employers/family routines around buses and the times/routes are changing every couple of months then this will ultimately be what puts you off using the bus.

Whilst it’s interesting for enthusiasts to be speculating and hoping for regular service changes (even when once one major change has launched) think about those who actually live on the routes - they’re dealing with this day in, day out… not just going off the irregular observation that a service is always late, always packed etc.

We know there a change coming, we also know its not a major change but some minor improvements which will NOT put passengers off since those passengers keep on complaining. However your First Sentence is breath taking.. If passengers are switching then NO it's not alright and shouldn't just be " so be it" there a problem.

Every time there talk trying to get improvements it stonewalling around here in this thread , and all it does is show everyone up to everyone else....

 

[GusB]

But surly if its just additional journeys etc, there not going to rip up the existing rota just to add in 3 extra buses with the new staff?

Adding three extra buses will require an adjustment to the rota, won't it? You're going to have to juggle things around however minor the changes.

We know there a change coming, we also know its not a major change but some minor improvements which will NOT put passengers off since those passengers keep on complaining. However your First Sentence is breath taking.. If passengers are switching then NO it's not alright and should just be " so be it" there a problem.

With the best will in the world, no matter what changes you make to a timetable you're bound to upset somebody. What works for one passenger won't necessarily work for another. Maybe there are some complaints, but perhaps there'd be more complaints by introducing further changes. You simply cannot please everybody and there are some who would still find cause for complaint it you sent a chauffeur-driven Rolls Royce to their house and rolled a red carpet up to the front door.

Every time there talk trying to get improvements it stonewalling around here in this thread , and all it does is show everyone up to everyone else....

It's a discussion forum where people are free disagree with your views, just as you are free to disagree with others. It's hardly stonewalling if others are actually engaging with your posts anyway.

 

[overthewater]

Adding three extra buses will require an adjustment to the rota, won't it? You're going to have to juggle things around however minor the changes.

Not Necessary, if the operations are precarious as were made out to believe then why would rearrange all the existing rotas? Did they rearrange all the rotas when they introduced the pointless X19? We don't know how many extra buses are going to be added but its highly likely it won't be that many, and it's unlikely they will want to cause a lot of extra work, just in case it doesn't work out.

It's a discussion forum where people are free disagree with your views, just as you are free to disagree with others. It's hardly stonewalling if others are actually engaging with your posts anyway.

It does fell like Stonewalling in this thread, mainly because passions run extremely high because some people need to defend Lothian buses plc because they believe it's honor is at steak, and the attacks ( for use of a better word) have no justification.

They said there wasn't the drivers or the buses then we got the X19. Thankfully some people admitted that was a very weird move by the company, and have started to released were not attracting Lothain per say. It doesn't feel like good discussion in this thread and feels like more like a running battle.

Mcgills, west Lothian council, Falkirk council, Edinburgh City council are no angels when it comes current mess, however Lothian started this mess and there could have sorted it out much faster.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not Necessary, if the operations are precarious as were made out to believe then why would rearrange all the existing rotas? Did they rearrange all the rotas when they introduced the pointless X19? We don't know how many extra buses are going to be added but its highly likely it won't be that many, and it's unlikely they will want to cause a lot of extra work, just in case it doesn't work out.

It does fell like Stonewalling in this thread, It's like people need to defend Lothian buses plc because it's honor is at steak, the attacks ( for use of a better word) have no justification. They said there wasn't the driver or the buses then we got the X19 and thankfully some people admitted that was a very weird move by the company. It doesn't feel like good discussion in this thread and feels like more like a running battle.

I do think there was a lot of political pressure from The City of Edinburgh Council to have this X19 to benefit Kirkliston, alongside the new houses at Winchburgh which had no service.

In terms of rotas, yes they would’ve redone the whole LC network as other changes were also made at that time.

Would the X19 have been my choice? No. But anyone would struggle to say it was a 100% pointless idea. Priorities wrong though, I agree. However Lothian must’ve concluded that there was more commercial viability in it due to the instability of the wider West Lothian network. That tells you a lot of how dire it has become. A company that could easily monopolise itself on that market chose to do something different at that time. Where the mess lies is as much Lothian’s fault as it is all the other stakeholders. I don’t think West Lothian Council are blameless in this as much as First were.

 

[GusB]

Not Necessary, if the operations are precarious as were made out to believe then why would rearrange all the existing rotas? Did they rearrange all the rotas when they introduced the pointless X19? We don't know how many extra buses are going to be added but its highly likely it won't be that many, and it's unlikely they will want to cause a lot of extra work, just in case it doesn't work out.

While I've never been a scheduler in the bus industry, I have had to organise rotas in a different industry and it can be quite difficult to make even minor tweaks to a schedule while using existing resources. There are many factors to consider, such as making sure that staff have appropriate breaks between shifts. I only ever had to make sure that the Working Time Directive was adhered to and that was often quite difficult. When scheduling bus drivers there are other regulations to take into account. I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly sure that those forum members who do have experience as schedulers will be able to better inform you.

Do you have experience in such matters?

Also, if you're unhappy with the way that Lothian is running things, have you made a complaint directly to the company?

It does fell like Stonewalling in this thread, mainly because passions run extremely high because some people need to defend Lothian buses plc because they believe it's honor is at steak, and the attacks ( for use of a better word) have no justification.

They said there wasn't the drivers or the buses then we got the X19. Thankfully some people admitted that was a very weird move by the company, and have started to released were not attracting Lothain per say. It doesn't feel like good discussion in this thread and feels like more like a running battle.

Mcgills, west Lothian council, Falkirk council, Edinburgh City council are no angels when it comes current mess, however Lothian started this mess and there could have sorted it out much faster.

You are not being "stonewalled" and nor are you being "attacked". People are simply disagreeing with what you say. There's absolutely no need to take it so personally!

 

[mb88]

Did they rearrange all the rotas when they introduced the pointless X19?

Yes, they did. Any service change, whether it be minor tweaks to existing services or the introduction of a new one, requires new duties to be made up. Said new duties have to then fit into a rota. So, whenever a service change takes place, the rotas change. If they hadn’t ‘rearranged all the rotas’, there would have been no X19 as no drivers would be scheduled to work it.

 

[buslad1988]

It does fell like Stonewalling in this thread, mainly because passions run extremely high because some people need to defend Lothian buses plc because they believe it's honor is at steak, and the attacks ( for use of a better word) have no justification.

Please don’t take any responses personally; it’s not directed in that way.

However, whilst healthy discussion is good on this forum some realism does have to be projected - otherwise everything on here would be purely fantasy. I’m also sure those who may not necessarily understand the intricate details of running a bus operation appreciate feedback from those in the know.

I’ve worked for multiple bus companies and can tell you now that they are just like any other business. Not all passengers will benefit from changes and you can’t please everyone all the time (as GusB pointed out), but the businesses position on those effected will be simply ‘tough luck’ - yes any valid points can be taken into account and adjusted at a further change, but not all will. Often you’ll also find it’s the inconvenienced few who’ll shout the loudest then blow things out of proportion (eg 26 Tranent).

Lothian Buses, whilst publicly owned, still needs to make a profit and keep its stake holders happy. They’re not fussed if a handful of people now have a longer journey to work or not - whilst that sounds bad, it’s just the way things are. Some bus companies are better at listening to customers than others granted. I’m also not saying Lothian are amazing and can do nothing wrong! They’re a very good bus company, but there’s always room for improvements.

Whilst generally unpopular on here, the X19 would have had a business case and this would have been taken to, and fully considered by the board before approval and launch. Just because the service is utilising X amount of buses and drivers, that doesn’t mean that resource would have been pumped in to prop up the greater country network had the X19 not got the go ahead. Yes, perhaps it might fail long term, but business is about trial and error.

Any rota change however minor involves a lot of things, including consulting unions etc. and will have an impact on scheduling and create work. That’s why often companies will change a series of services at once.

As I’ve mentioned before, since the last change the service 5 duty boards (and rotas - which is every Marine double deck rota) have had all the run in, charging time included in them ready for when the BZL’s get allocated. That’s currently a lot of time and money wasted! However, it’s easier just to leave that in place than have to change everything again.

 

[318266]

Yes, they did. Any service change, whether it be minor tweaks to existing services or the introduction of a new one, requires new duties to be made up. Said new duties have to then fit into a rota. So, whenever a service change takes place, the rotas change. If they hadn’t ‘rearranged all the rotas’, there would have been no X19 as no drivers would be scheduled to work it.

I should note that at the majority of bus companies, the allocation of duties and rotas tend to be the work of specialised computer software, such as Omnibus or Optibus, rather than a team of management.

 

[Auld reekie]

I should note that at the majority of bus companies, the allocation of duties and rotas tend to be the work of specialised computer software, such as Omnibus or Optibus, rather than a team eof management.

Exactly.
The days of rota organising manually are few and far between.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

As I’ve mentioned before, since the last change the service 5 duty boards (and rotas - which is every Marine double deck rota) have had all the run in, charging time included in them ready for when the BZL’s get allocated. That’s currently a lot of time and money wasted! However, it’s easier just to leave that in place than have to change everything again.

Part of me is actually surprised they’ve not moved the 5 to Central and move say the 1 to Marine. Would help standardise the BZL’s to one depot.

Then again, up to 798 shouldn’t be the last we see. I can easily see another 100 or so after that.

 

[buslad1988]

Part of me is actually surprised they’ve not moved the 5 to Central and move say the 1 to Marine. Would help standardise the BZL’s to one depot.

Then again, up to 798 shouldn’t be the last we see. I can easily see another 100 or so after that.

A significant amount of work to electrify Marine is already done and eventually everything will be electric anyway - so makes sense just to crack on now and spread the BZL’s about. It’s also worth noting that capacity will also be reduced at each garage as electric charging takes up more space than simply being able to run a bus through the wash/fuel then park up as tightly as they do now!

Exactly.
The days of rota organising manually are few and far between.

Indeed this. Most systems simply generate the rotas - however errors can still occur. Everything needs checking; which is why the unions also get involved too.

Apologies if I’m teaching anyone to suck eggs… however just incase anyone didn’t realise, the rota’s aren’t simply double deck and single deck. For example at Marine alone the double deck rotas are made up of the following:

4 day mainline
4 day pool (float)
4 day backshift
5 day mainline
5 day pool (float)
5 day backshift
Splits
Loyalty

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A significant amount of work to electrify Marine is already done and eventually everything will be electric anyway - so makes sense just to crack on now and spread the BZL’s about. It’s also worth noting that capacity will also be reduced at each garage as electric charging takes up more space than simply being able to run a bus through the wash/fuel then park up as tightly as they do now!

Yes that’s true. I suppose there’s the potential for running out of space - ie a potential need for a 4th depot, if the city keeps expanding and eventually everything is electric. Marine have plenty of options in terms of routes though. 4, 5, 15, 19, 21, 45 and 49 you’d think.

There’s still the issues with Longstone to sort too. Pity as they have several routes that would be suitable for BZL conversion. 22, 33, 34 and 35 probably from the deckers.

Hopefully some single deck variants come along at somepoint when needed. Only the 46 and 48 out of the city routes would be a potential issue. The rest you’d think would be fine.

 

[stevenedin]

I do feel like it would make sense to open a depot in Midlothian for routes which operate there. Possibly in East Coast Buses branding which should allow them to convert some routes over to that brand. Obviously the pay issue would need to be resolved before that happened but it would free up some space at Longstone and Central.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I do feel like it would make sense to open a depot in Midlothian for routes which operate there. Possibly in East Coast Buses branding which should allow them to convert some routes over to that brand. Obviously the pay issue would need to be resolved before that happened but it would free up some space at Longstone and Central.

It would allow them to focus the diesel stuff into one depot until electric products can manage that work. Typically the diesel buses work further out. Somewhere on the southern extremities wouldn’t be bad.

 

[Bus9120UK]

There was long rumours of Lothian opening a 'mega-depot' in the Queen Margaret University area to replace Marine, Seafield and Musselburgh. No idea how much truth there was to this, probably very little, but a big argument for it was the Seafield developments the council are looking at which would likely see Marine and Seafield both demolished. With new developments at QMU progressing it seems unrealistic now that there would be a depot placed there, however it would be interesting to see where Lothian would consider opening a garage to replace Marine/Seafield should they have to. Any new garage incorporating East Coast buses would be fantastic for increasing capacity with how constrained Musselburgh is.

 

[VioletEclipse]

There was long rumours of Lothian opening a 'mega-depot' in the Queen Margaret University area to replace Marine, Seafield and Musselburgh. No idea how much truth there was to this, probably very little, but a big argument for it was the Seafield developments the council are looking at which would likely see Marine and Seafield both demolished. With new developments at QMU progressing it seems unrealistic now that there would be a depot placed there, however it would be interesting to see where Lothian would consider opening a garage to replace Marine/Seafield should they have to. Any new garage incorporating East Coast buses would be fantastic for increasing capacity with how constrained Musselburgh is.

The Seafield redevelopment plan seems to be progressing very slowly if at all these days, so it could yet be a while off before they have to move out for redevelopment. Honestly something I think might become more of an issue with Marine and Seafield is winter storms and the fact that sea defences there have been damaged in a number of storms in recent years which isn't promising with severe winter storms likely to be more frequent in future.

 

[InOban]

The land on the QMU side of the A1 is largely spoken for, but there's plenty of space between the A1 and Millerhill train depot

 

[computerSaysNo]

There currently look to be buses operating a route "GX1" between Longniddry and Gullane; is this open to the public? Or do they check and let on golfers only?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I do feel like it would make sense to open a depot in Midlothian for routes which operate there. Possibly in East Coast Buses branding which should allow them to convert some routes over to that brand. Obviously the pay issue would need to be resolved before that happened but it would free up some space at Longstone and Central.

and Marine for the 46/48

 

[bonnyrigglad1]

There currently look to be buses operating a route "GX1" between Longniddry and Gullane; is this open to the public? Or do they check and let on golfers only?

it is for those travelling to the golf from Longniddry train station, and then doing the return journeys at the day goes on

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'm currently on a 124 which:

• Is 25 minutes late because every group of people getting on is asking the driver the same questions about tickets and where to get off for x/y and "why is this bus only going as far as Musselburgh? I want to go to Edinburgh?"
• Has multiple free seats but people have their bags on them or people are sitting in the isle seat so nobody can sit in the window seat.
• Has had to turn people away because everyone who is standing is crowding at the very front and at the bottom of the staircase meaning nobody else can get passed to get on.

Is it reasonable to be disappointed that people are not aware of their surroundings enough or care enough to clear the free seats next to them so they can be occupied?
Would it not be reasonable for the driver to check for free seats upstairs and downstairs and ask that people use them so that people don't get left behind at bus stops?

 

[stevenedin]

I'm currently on a 124 which:

• Is 25 minutes late because every group of people getting on is asking the driver the same questions about tickets and where to get off for x/y and "why is this bus only going as far as Musselburgh? I want to go to Edinburgh?"
• Has multiple free seats but people have their bags on them or people are sitting in the isle seat so nobody can sit in the window seat.
• Has had to turn people away because everyone who is standing is crowding at the very front and at the bottom of the staircase meaning nobody else can get passed to get on.

Is it reasonable to be disappointed that people are not aware of their surroundings enough or care enough to clear the free seats next to them so they can be occupied?
Would it not be reasonable for the driver to check for free seats upstairs and downstairs and ask that people use them so that people don't get left behind at bus stops?

This seems to be normal behaviour on buses recently unfortunately. I always hate this thing with people standing when there are free seats unless they are only one one or two stops. Also I dont understand why people create a bottleneck when standing. They should fill the wheelchair and buggy spaces first if they are free then go to the back and stand instead of at the bottom of the stairs.

 

[alexf380]

I'm currently on a 124 which:

• Is 25 minutes late because every group of people getting on is asking the driver the same questions about tickets and where to get off for x/y and "why is this bus only going as far as Musselburgh? I want to go to Edinburgh?"
• Has multiple free seats but people have their bags on them or people are sitting in the isle seat so nobody can sit in the window seat.
• Has had to turn people away because everyone who is standing is crowding at the very front and at the bottom of the staircase meaning nobody else can get passed to get on.

Is it reasonable to be disappointed that people are not aware of their surroundings enough or care enough to clear the free seats next to them so they can be occupied?
Would it not be reasonable for the driver to check for free seats upstairs and downstairs and ask that people use them so that people don't get left behind at bus stops?

This route is incredibly popular with tourists at time of year and questions about various destinations are to be expected. Quite often people will attempt to board with a ridacard having not been challenged on the way out, but it has to then be explained that it's not valid this far out and they'll need to pay a fare.

Yes, it would be reasonable for the driver to check for free seats and ask people to use them, but that would only add to the already quite considerable delay. Considering it's only going to Musselburgh, I'd hazard a guess the driver will be finishing and just wants to get down the road. That's not an excuse for leaving people behind by any stretch, however a couple more minutes late running could be the difference between breaching driving hours or not.
It's alarming how little spacial awareness people have when travelling. Either that, or it's selfishness.

 

[computerSaysNo]

This seems to be normal behaviour on buses recently unfortunately. I always hate this thing with people standing when there are free seats unless they are only one one or two stops. Also I dont understand why people create a bottleneck when standing. They should fill the wheelchair and buggy spaces first if they are free then go to the back and stand instead of at the bottom of the stairs.

I've noticed it on every bus which is busy, even single deckers.

This route is incredibly popular with tourists at time of year and questions about various destinations are to be expected. Quite often people will attempt to board with a ridacard having not been challenged on the way out, but it has to then be explained that it's not valid this far out and they'll need to pay a fare.

Ah, thanks for explaining, I hadn't considered ridacard issues.

Yes, it would be reasonable for the driver to check for free seats and ask people to use them, but that would only add to the already quite considerable delay. Considering it's only going to Musselburgh, I'd hazard a guess the driver will be finishing and just wants to get down the road. That's not an excuse for leaving people behind by any stretch, however a couple more minutes late running could be the difference between breaching driving hours or not.

If the driver were running short on driving time, would the regulations allow for the service to officially be cancelled (driver sets screen to "not in service") but the existing passengers remain on board and the bus operates as set-down only for the rest of the route? As the next 124 was less than 10 minutes behind and would likely be fairly quiet (as by 25 minutes late you're effectively taking passengers for both your service and that of the one behind).

It's alarming how little spacial awareness people have when travelling. Either that, or it's selfishness.

I've been on a single decker before which was full and all the people were bunched up standing at the front. Driver was having to leave people behind at every stop. He tried talking/talking loudly to people to move further down at there was plenty of room, but even then nobody apart from me was moving (this wasn't in Edinburgh).