Tube trains on Harrogate Line

[jopsuk]

I'm guessing Network Rail and the DfT haven't commented yet as they're still doubled over laughing?

 

[telstarbox]

It also appears that they have little idea about the height of a third rail:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC Report
The power would come from a rail mounted a couple of feet above the track and a "current collector" would run along it, feeding electricity to the trains' motors.

A similar system is already used in the south east of England, on the London Underground and on a large part of Merseyside's commuter network.

I thought that wasn't right when I read it!

 

[Simon Poole]

I thought the goverment or network rail wants to get RID OF 3RD RAIL?

 

[RobDonkey]

Well you never know with this lot.

 

[Class172]

What a stupid idea! Next we will be hearing of a proposal as such that S-stock trains can go on the WCML in order to displace 350s which can be cascaded to Northern! (Now I suppose some of you would like this )

 

[DarloRich]

I'm guessing Network Rail and the DfT haven't commented yet as they're still doubled over laughing?

doubled over? - Lying on the floor pis8ing themselves with laughter more like. Bet Northern are too! :roll: This is total and utter toss written by idiots. It is so stupid as to not even warrent a response!

 

[RobDonkey]

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the line has a fair few level crossings. Are they safe for third rail? I'm sure somebody would stand on it.

 

[tom1649]

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the line has a fair few level crossings. Are they safe for third rail? I'm sure somebody would stand on it.

There would be a gap in the live rail, trains coast over. Doesn't make this project any more the likely though.

 

[ukrob]

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the line has a fair few level crossings. Are they safe for third rail? I'm sure somebody would stand on it.

Of course it is safe - how do you think the hundreds of 3rd rail EMUs south of London and on Merseyside cope?

 

[RobDonkey]

Of course it is safe - how do you think the hundreds of 3rd rail EMUs south of London and on Merseyside cope?

I never go south of London or to Merseyside so I wouldn't know. :P

For all I know it could be a sea of bridges.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the line has a fair few level crossings. Are they safe for third rail? I'm sure somebody would stand on it.

There's level crossings on the 3rd rail electrfied Liverpool Moorfields to Southport line. At some stations the accessible route between the two platforms is via the level crossing.

 

[theblackwatch]

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the line has a fair few level crossings. Are they safe for third rail? I'm sure somebody would stand on it.

Plenty of level crossings on the old Southern Region and Merseyrail network, that shouldn't be seen as a major problem. Not that I think it will happen - there's about as much chance of it as 37408/411 appearing on the 07.58 Knaresborough-Leeds and one of those locos has been scrapped!

 

[RobDonkey]

Plenty of level crossings on the old Southern Region and Merseyrail network, that shouldn't be seen as a major problem. Not that I think it will happen - there's about as much chance of it as 37408/411 appearing on the 07.58 Knaresborough-Leeds and one of those locos has been scrapped!

I used to get that service to school every day before they pulled it. I remember they had 37405 running on it as well.

There is one problem with gaps in the live rail though. Starbeck and Knaresborough stations are on level crossings. Would a train be able to gather enough momentum to coast over the crossing considering they'd only have a few yards from setting off before the live rail ended?

I think it's the same situation at both Cattal and Hammerton too.

 

[ukrob]

I used to get that service to school every day before they pulled it. I remember they had 37405 running on it as well.

There is one problem with gaps in the live rail though. Starbeck and Knaresborough stations are on level crossings. Would a train be able to gather enough momentum to coast over the crossing considering they'd only have a few yards from setting off before the live rail ended?

I think it's the same situation at both Cattal and Hammerton too.

Lots of 3rd rail stations are on level crossings.

There is more than one shoe on each unit, as long as one is in contact with the 3rd rail, the unit has power.

 

[RobDonkey]

Well that's one less problem they'd have to overcome if they were really stupid enough to go ahead with this proposal.

I'd rather they just reinstated twin track between Knaresborough/Cattal and Hammerton/Poppleton and ran a half-hourly service to York. That'd deal with some of the overcrowding on that side of Harrogate.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is an utterly barmy idea. District line stock is tinny and uncomfortable, for a start. And it's already 30 years old!

 

[northwichcat]

This is an utterly barmy idea. District line stock is tinny and uncomfortable, for a start.

Whereas the Pacers and 150s currently used on the line are...

I imagine any stock that did come from LU would get a complete internal overhaul.

My question would be if the Harrogate line does go to ex-LU stock then would we start seeing other services like the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper going the same way?

 

[Metroman62]

According to the article at

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/07/15-district-line-to-harrogate-electrification.html

then quite a bit of research into this has been done, so maybe it is more likely than some think?

 

[Crossover]

As far as I can see, it is an utterly crazy idea. LU stock is fine for...well...the LU, but elsewhere I can see it being horrifically bad! Also, I don't think they have such a high top speed as they are geared for acceleration.

With the third rail being a couple of feet above the track, I think they are making the point it is bottom, rather than top, contact - still way way way off though!

It would also end up with having to 3rd rail some of the Leeds platforms and access roads, but not all, so there is going to be a weird mix of stuff in the area. (and we have already had discussions on another thread about joiint operation of AC overhead and DC 3rd rail being challenging.

My question would be if the Harrogate line does go to ex-LU stock then would we start seeing other services like the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper going the same way?

Don't give them ideas :P

 

[RobDonkey]

I wonder if this was a bet within the Harrogate Chamber of Commerce.

"£20 says you wouldn't tell the BBC there might be tube stock in Harrogate."
"You're on."

 

[JohnB57]

Not going to happen this is it? The BBC item reads like a journalist who has no clue what they are writing about so I think the idea of a raised third rail is just poor research.

As posted above, D Stock has a top speed of under 60mph and if you factor in wind resistance and voltage drop on the long rural sections, average is likely to be nearer 40mph. Seating is not suited to ths type of commuting, comfort would be appalling and the stock, which will be nearly forty years old on replacement, is not air conditioned and would need conversion from fourth rail anyway, all as mentioned higher up this thread.

Another barmy idea cooked up by someone who should know - or should have found out - better.

The IOW system is of course, as we all know, limited by tunnel loading gauge so they don't have the option of a "proper" railway...

 

[Metrailway]

D78 Stock is in better state than the pacers since it was refurbished recently. Any transfer of stock to the Harrogate line would mean another refurb before operation, which would probably add 15 to 20 years to the lifetime of the stock.

As for the idea itself, highly unlikely for a route of such lenght!

Well the District line is approximately 64km, whilst the Harrogate line is shorter at approximately 62km

It also appears that they have little idea about the height of a third rail:

The power would come from a rail mounted a couple of feet above the track and a "current collector" would run along it, feeding electricity to the trains' motors.

The plan is to convert D78 stock to side conductor rail pickup like the DLR.

As far as I can see, it is an utterly crazy idea. LU stock is fine for...well...the LU, but elsewhere I can see it being horrifically bad! Also, I don't think they have such a high top speed as they are geared for acceleration.

D78s max speed is 60mph and managed to reach 70mph on the D78 Stock Metroliner tour on the Metropolitan Line

This proposal is actually serious, with Mark Leving, former MD of First Hull Trains, being project director: railnews article

 

[deltic]

My understanding is that Network Rail have long term aspirations to convert the Harrogate-Leeds line to tram train in part to relieve long term growth problems at Leeds station

 

[tbtc]

My conspiracy theory is that the posh folk of Harrogate have heard the myth that Pacers can't run on Third Rail, so are going to crazy extremes to try to ensure that their Spa Town doesn't get lumbered with any more 142/144s

the District line is approximately 64km, whilst the Harrogate line is shorter at approximately 62km

The difference is that (apart from the route from Leeds to York via Garforth for direct Leeds-York journeys) there is no alternative on the Harrogate Line. If you travel between Harrogate and York/Leeds then you'd be sat on one of these "underground" trains for a long journey.

Whilst the District line is marginally longer there are fast parallel lines (Piccadilly in West London, National Rail services in East London) meaning that few people are ever going to use the District line for long journeys.

The whole thing looks bizarre - surely it'd be much cheaper to buy a dozen 172s than to electrify the whole line with Third Rail (assuming there's not the funds to electrify it *properly* with overhead wires)?

 

[LE Greys]

Did this story first break on April the 1st? :?

 

[Metrailway]

The whole thing looks bizarre - surely it'd be much cheaper to buy a dozen 172s than to electrify the whole line with Third Rail (assuming there's not the funds to electrify it *properly* with overhead wires)?

The cost is apparently £150m, for electrification and stock (20 6 car D78s with 10 spare). It cost approx £120m for 69 cars of Class 172 for LM services. Each 6 car D78 provides 280 seats. To provide a similar number of seats with a 172, you probably need 4 cars. So 4*20 units = 80 cars, which would probably cost approxmatetly £140m, only £10m less than the D78 proposal

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just heard on BBC Look North about proposals to use old District line stock on the Harrogate line. Can't find any sources online - any thoughts?

I wish that you had not bothered to post this thread in the first place.:roll:

 

[SS4]

The difference is that (apart from the route from Leeds to York via Garforth for direct Leeds-York journeys) there is no alternative on the Harrogate Line. If you travel between Harrogate and York/Leeds then you'd be sat on one of these "underground" trains for a long journey.

Whilst the District line is marginally longer there are fast parallel lines (Piccadilly in West London, National Rail services in East London) meaning that few people are ever going to use the District line for long journeys.

Similarly, in London you have access to built up areas to put substations in (DC is notorious for leakage especially since IIRC it runs at a higher current than the 25kV AC overhead).

I'm not entirely sure what lies between the two destinations but I doubt it's urban sprawl. In addition what effect would the weather have on either the third rail or the train itself, it doesn't exactly look like it's well insulated after all. LU rarely have to deal with poor weather even with outer running on the District

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hehehe - that's a nice parody of the main safety argument against third rail! although you could "extend" the Merseyrail Network with only minimal sections under 25kV wires to Salford Crescent to Stalybridge, (with a possible tee from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge).

Do I take it that you intend the WORLD-FAMOUS Stockport to Stalybridge "once a week on a Friday morning" service to be part of this new supposition? The regulars won't know what to make of it, when your "different" rolling stock appears.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a new security measure. It powers the trains and keeps trespassers off the line too!

They could just hang it all off the lineside fencing...