London to Leicester (via Nuneaton)

[Kite159]

Afternoon all

Am I misremembering something or at one point was a standard off-peak return from London to Leicester valid via Nuneaton (so Euston - Nuneaton - Leicester)?

Seems looking at the guide the only option these days is direct from St Pancras to Leicester via Market Harbrough and via Corby. Or was it just an easement for when the Midland Main Line was closed for engineering works to allow passengers to use the WCML

 

[Watershed]

It's not a mapped route, but it is the shortest route to Euston and there is nothing in the restrictions that says that Euston isn't a valid London Terminal. Accordingly it's valid - though booking sites don't offer it (not sure whether they are using a different mileage calculation perhaps).

Avanti & LNR are really keen for people not to know about this, of course!

 

[Kite159]

It's not a mapped route, but it is the shortest route to Euston and there is nothing in the restrictions that says that Euston isn't a valid London Terminal. Accordingly it's valid - though booking sites don't offer it (not sure whether they are using a different mileage calculation perhaps).

Avanti & LNR are really keen for people not to know about this, of course!

I would have imagined it would probably be more XC not wanting people to know about it, considering how short their trains are (considering London - Leicester is more expensive than London - Nuneaton). I would imagine the booking sites are doing something bonkers like randomly involving reversals with the freight links (via the former Primrose Hill station & the connection to the Midland Main Line with the Gospel Oak - Barking line)

 

[OscarH]

It's not a mapped route, but it is the shortest route to Euston and there is nothing in the restrictions that says that Euston isn't a valid London Terminal. Accordingly it's valid - though booking sites don't offer it (not sure whether they are using a different mileage calculation perhaps).

Avanti & LNR are really keen for people not to know about this, of course!

I believe it isn't, but is only 2.91 miles more so within the 3 mile rule. Can't immediately see an easement barring it, I'll see if I can work out why it isn't being surfaced

 

[CyrusWuff]

According to the electronic National Rail Timetable mileage file:

St Pancras to Leicester is 99.25 miles

Euston to Nuneaton is 97 miles
Nuneaton to Leicester is 18.5 miles
Giving a total of 115.5 miles

 

[Watershed]

According to the electronic National Rail Timetable mileage file:

St Pancras to Leicester is 99.25 miles

Euston to Nuneaton is 97 miles
Nuneaton to Leicester is 18.5 miles
Giving a total of 115.5 miles

Indeed but the comparison isn't to closest London Terminal (St Pancras), it's to the London Terminal you're travelling to (Euston).

 

[Kite159]

Unless the data is somehow using London Overground from Euston to Willesden Junction then to West Hampstead walking to West Hampstead Thameslink for a Thameslink northbound changing onto EMR at Luton/Bedford?

 

[OscarH]

Unless the data is somehow using London Overground from Euston to Willesden Junction then to West Hampstead walking to West Hampstead Thameslink for a Thameslink northbound changing onto EMR at Luton/Bedford?

No, the shortest route using the data is via the Marston Vale, 2.91 miles shorter than via Nuneaton

 

[Watershed]

No, the shortest route using the data is via the Marston Vale, 2.91 miles shorter than via Nuneaton

Yep, fair point although within 3 miles is still permitted.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yep, fair point although within 3 miles is still permitted.

Having now checked this in Fujitsu Journey Planner, Euston - Nuneaton - Leicester is shown as being a valid route. I suspect there may be fake "mandatory" reservations in play.


Image shows an extract from Fujitsu Journey Planner confirming a London - Leicester ticket is valid via Nuneaton.

 

[kieron]

Accordingly it's valid - though booking sites don't offer it (not sure whether they are using a different mileage calculation perhaps).

For what it's worth, nre.co.uk currently shows London-Nuneaton-Leicester as being valid with an "any permitted" ticket (link*), and I had no trouble clicking through to EMR..

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for the link to open correctly.

 

[35B]

Indeed but the comparison isn't to closest London Terminal (St Pancras), it's to the London Terminal you're travelling to (Euston).

Can you elaborate on how that one works? I ask because, at face value, if I said that I was travelling to London Waterloo, that would justify me travelling a very roundabout route to get to Waterloo which would be a) perverse and b) a lot further than 3 miles further than a direct journey.

I suspect there are some points I've misunderstood, but would be grateful for clarification.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately the LU mileage data was removed by RDG a few years ago.

This data is crucial to avoiding ridiculous anomalies, however the proportion of passengers who would attempt to do ridiculous things is tiny, so it hasn't become a major issue.

However, the more people try to push it, and the more it gets mentioned on here, the more likely it is that the data will be fixed.

This would result in Leicester to London not being deemed valid via Nuneaton by any booking sites, unless the maps are changed.

 

[35B]

Unfortunately the LU mileage data was removed by RDG a few years ago.

This data is crucial to avoiding ridiculous anomalies, however the proportion of passengers who would attempt to do ridiculous things is tiny, so it hasn't become a major issue.

However, the more people try to push it, and the more it gets mentioned on here, the more likely it is that the data will be fixed.

This would result in Leicester to London not being deemed valid via Nuneaton by any booking sites, unless the maps are changed.

I understand that broader point. The question that I'm still confused about is what determines which London Terminal(s) I may travel to from a given starting point. The answer above, which provoked my ridiculous great circle proposal (and I agree with you on the vanishingly small number who might use it), suggested that the "3 mile" rule applies from the chosen London Terminal. But that leaves open the question of which should be valid terminals to travel to from a particular starting point.

 

[yorkie]

I understand that broader point. The question that I'm still confused about is what determines which London Terminal(s) I may travel to from a given starting point. The answer above, which provoked my ridiculous great circle proposal (and I agree with you on the vanishingly small number who might use it), suggested that the "3 mile" rule applies from the chosen London Terminal. But that leaves open the question of which should be valid terminals to travel to from a particular starting point.

If it's a mapped route or within 3 miles of the shortest route, it's valid.

Traditionally the LU mileages were included, which meant convoluted routes were not permitted. Obviously, a route involving LU requires LU validity, hence some terminals require a zonal ticket to be issued.

However, until the data is fixed, some unintended routes will be deemed valid.

The more attention it gets, the more likely it will be fixed. Once fixed, Leicester to London will no longer be valid via Nuneaton, unless the maps are altered.

 

[35B]

If it's a mapped route or within 3 miles of the shortest route, it's valid.

Traditionally the LU mileages were included, which meant convoluted routes were not permitted. Obviously, a route involving LU requires LU validity, hence some terminals require a zonal ticket to be issued.

Thank you - that answers my question on the point of principle, and explains why travel to Waterloo via Bletchley and Oxford would not be permissible

 

[Haywain]

Thank you - that answers my question on the point of principle, and explains why travel to Waterloo via Bletchley and Oxford would not be permissible

The shortest route from Leicester to Waterloo would be via City Thameslink and Liondon Bridge to Waterloo East, I think. Or via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction. Oxford would be way off course.

 

[Watershed]

Can you elaborate on how that one works? I ask because, at face value, if I said that I was travelling to London Waterloo, that would justify me travelling a very roundabout route to get to Waterloo which would be a) perverse and b) a lot further than 3 miles further than a direct journey.

I suspect there are some points I've misunderstood, but would be grateful for clarification.

Well, it's a fair question. The thing is that at the moment there isn't anything authoritative which tells you which London Terminals you can choose to calculate the mileage to or from. In the absence of an authoritative source I would suggest that any London Terminal is fair game, provided the other routing/ticket validity rules are obeyed in getting there.

There is a data feed which provides a list of London Terminals you can use, which is used by booking sites to define what London Terminals means for your journey. But this isn't an exhaustive or authoritative list; it isn't referred to in the NRCoT or Routeing Guide for example.

Most circuitous 'shortest' routes are ruled out by the fact that you would have to enter and then leave the London Terminals fares group, e.g. via Farringdon to get to Waterloo, which would not be permitted because your ticket would have expired when you reach St Pancras. Those that are not, but which present perceived loopholes, are generally excluded by means of a negative easement.

 

[35B]

The shortest route from Leicester to Waterloo would be via City Thameslink and Liondon Bridge to Waterloo East, I think. Or via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction. Oxford would be way off course.

Which is why I asked about the specifics of London Terminals, knowing that via Oxford would be almost incredible if permissible - but seeing an answer that didn't give me a clear "why" answer. @Watershed has given me a very useful elaboration which, with the answer from @yorkie, will stop me trying something stupid!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2025 ==

Well, it's a fair question. The thing is that at the moment there isn't anything authoritative which tells you which London Terminals you can choose to calculate the mileage to or from. In the absence of an authoritative source I would suggest that any London Terminal is fair game, provided the other routing/ticket validity rules are obeyed in getting there.

There is a data feed which provides a list of London Terminals you can use, which is used by booking sites to define what London Terminals means for your journey. But this isn't an exhaustive or authoritative list; it isn't referred to in the NRCoT or Routeing Guide for example.

Most circuitous 'shortest' routes are ruled out by the fact that you would have to enter and then leave the London Terminals fares group, e.g. via Farringdon to get to Waterloo, which would not be permitted because your ticket would have expired when you reach St Pancras. Those that are not, but which present perceived loopholes, are generally excluded by means of a negative easement.

Thank you - that satisfies my curiosity (for Grantham, Liverpool Street being valid has always struck me as odd but occasionally very useful), but also explains why I couldn't use those rules to get across to the WCML before heading south.

 

[yorkie]

The shortest route from Euston to Leicester should be Euston - King's Cross St Pancras - Leicester, and this was the case before RDG deleted the LU mileage. (Obviously, such a ticket would need to be issued from Zone Ux London to be valid on the tube).

Going via Nuneaton isn't within 3 miles of that, so would need to be a mapped route (which Grantham to Liverpool Street is) to be permitted.

In the absence of that data, Euston to Leicester becomes permitted via Nuneaton.

The data was removed around 6/7 years ago.

In a way, it's a good thing that the data remains unfixed because it allows some very sensible journeys that really should be permitted, such as Leicester to London via Nuneaton.

However, if anyone is caught doing a route that is completely bonkers, then it's likely to be brought to the attention of someone who may realise the data is missing, and fix the problem.

The more it's talked about on here, the more chance it gets fixed, and that would prevent people doing London to Leicester via Nuneaton in future (unless a mapped route is created to enable this).

 

[Markuk]

I may be imagining it but I'm sure it was once the case that WCML-land to London Terminals was valid to Vauxhall, going via Olympia.