Andy Burnham wants to take the Bee Network underground by 2050

[wanderingriver]

This morning on X/Twitter (or whatever you want to call it), made a post about wanting to taking the Bee Network underground.

He posted,

GM is growing fast.

We will expand @BeeNetwork over the next decade to meet the needs of our bigger economy.

BUT There’s a limit to what we can do on a congested surface.

It’s why I am asking TfGM to start planning for an underground for GM around a remodelled Piccadilly.

Attached to the post there is a video stating that "By 2050, we will need to go underground with a flagship underground station at Manchester Piccadilly"

Post can be found here: https://x.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1943177046869344432

 

[Snow1964]

BBC article on Andy Burnham speech

A new underground system for trains and trams is being planned for Manchester city centre, the mayor has said.
As he outlined the region's 10-year strategy, Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham said it was "essential" to the city's future economic prosperity that a transport system was built underground.
He said he envisaged two lines in the city - one running from North to South and the other East to West - with Manchester Piccadilly Station at the centre as the "Kings Cross of the north of England".
"This isn't a pipe dream - we will not accept anything else," he said.
He said planning needed to start now for an underground system "as we get towards the 2040s going towards the 2050s".
The mayor said the development would see a new underground station in Manchester Piccadilly alongside the new Liverpool-Manchester railway line.

Mayor announces underground trains and trams plan for Manchester

Mayor Andy Burnham says two new underground lines are "essential" for Manchester's future economy.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where does Andy Burnham expect to be in 25 years time in 2050? Anyone can make statements about what will happen in 25 years time without the knowledge of how the country will look in 2050?

 

[duffield]

It's good to see a politician with a long-term vision. It's true he very probably won't be in a position to oversee this even if it does ever come to fruition.

But these sort of long-term plans will *definitely* never come to pass if you dismiss them as too distant, uncertain and ambitious.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But these sort of long-term plans will *definitely* never come to pass if you dismiss them as too distant, uncertain and ambitious.

That being the case, what finally came of the "Picc-Vic" project in real life terminology.

 

[thejuggler]

Where does Andy Burnham expect to be in 25 years time in 2050? Anyone can make statements about what will happen in 25 years time without the knowledge of how the country will look in 2050?

A visionary is a someone who plants a tree knowing they will never benefit from its shade.

 

[yorksrob]

Newcastle and Liverpool managed it in the 1970's/80's so it should be doable.

 

[465fan]

This morning on X/Twitter (or whatever you want to call it), made a post about wanting to taking the Bee Network underground.

He posted,

Attached to the post there is a video stating that "By 2050, we will need to go underground with a flagship underground station at Manchester Piccadilly"

Post can be found here: https://x.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1943177046869344432

This did intrigue me.

Mostly because it seems to suggest three modes of differing rail-based transport underground. Not a single one (e.g. Metrolink, and Tram Train as may be later on), but a mixture of stuff incorporating heavy rail.

Does anybody have a very broad idea of what he thinks this would be?

 

[The exile]

Newcastle and Liverpool managed it in the 1970's/80's so it should be doable.

IIRC Manchester in the early 70s and Bristol 20 years later are prime examples of what happens when individual politicians/councils are so determined to get their way and not budge an inch from their preferred solution that in the end all that every gets is the satisfaction that “the others” didn’t get their way (because everyone ends up with the worst of C all possible worlds - nothing). At least Manchester got Metrolink - in the West we’re still waiting.

 

[eldomtom2]

Does anybody have a very broad idea of what he thinks this would be?

Seems to me that he's proposing in essence a Manchester S-Bahn.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

IIRC Manchester in the early 70s and Bristol 20 years later are prime examples of what happens when individual politicians/councils are so determined to get their way and not budge an inch from their preferred solution that in the end all that every gets is the satisfaction that “the others” didn’t get their way (because everyone ends up with the worst of C all possible worlds - nothing). At least Manchester got Metrolink - in the West we’re still waiting.

Never make perfect the enemy of good!

There's nothing wrong with a bit of scoping and forward planning. Sometimes ambitious, expensive plans produce something really good like the Elizabeth Line, at other times it's best to adopt a 'half a cake is better than none' approach. Good leaders know when to do which.

An interesting contrast with Bristol is Cardiff where a 'half a cake' approach is producing a servicable, if far from perfect, Metro system while Bristol has had to fight for decades to get 1tph to Portishead

 

[The Planner]

Where does Andy Burnham expect to be in 25 years time in 2050? Anyone can make statements about what will happen in 25 years time without the knowledge of how the country will look in 2050?

Best make all the strategic planners within Network Rail redundant then!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Best make all the strategic planners within Network Rail redundant then!

Let us all remember that this thread is on the Speculative Discussion forum, where flights of fancy can take to the wing. 2050 is 25 years in the future and no-one can say what the country will be like then, politically and in general.

 

[The Planner]

Let us all remember that this thread is on the Speculative Discussion forum, where flights of fancy can take to the wing. 2050 is 25 years in the future and no-one can say what the country will be like then, politically and in general.

NR will look that far ahead. Many of the old route studies from a few years back were considering up to 2043.

 

[Zomboid]

There's obviously a fair amount of uncertainty around what 2050 will look like, but you can make reasonable predictions based on reasonable assumptions, and you probably won't be too far wrong.

 

[urbophile]

Catching up with Liverpool at last. But not before time. I don't know if Metrolink is described as a 'rapid transit' system, but if so it's a total misnomer.

 

[aron2smith]

Where does Andy Burnham expect to be in 25 years time in 2050? Anyone can make statements about what will happen in 25 years time without the knowledge of how the country will look in 2050?

How about we create the future for ourselves rather than let the future define us? Greater Manchester should definitely dream big, even if it only ends up creates half of it. I think that city region would really benefit from making its longer Metrolink routes go underground and turn them into commuter rail routes that pass under the city centre a la what we see presently in Glasgow and Birmingham, even compare it to the wonderful Tyne and Wear Metro which is underground itself in Newcastle/ Gateshead. About time we as a country dreamed and aspired for something big for the future. We will need to dream and act big to solve the great problems we will face in the future. The status quo will simply not do!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2025 ==

IIRC Manchester in the early 70s and Bristol 20 years later are prime examples of what happens when individual politicians/councils are so determined to get their way and not budge an inch from their preferred solution that in the end all that every gets is the satisfaction that “the others” didn’t get their way (because everyone ends up with the worst of C all possible worlds - nothing). At least Manchester got Metrolink - in the West we’re still waiting.

The thing with Bristol is it needs the full built up area under one roof. Whilst the northern suburban areas like Filton continue to think they are South Glos and eastern suburbs like Hanham think they are Somerset, Bristol and the wider area around will continue to suffer with a severe lack of transport. Underbounding of cities (even London) appears to be a major problem in this country! Which has major implications for organisation and planning of our cities. Transport being one part of many of this issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

NR will look that far ahead. Many of the old route studies from a few years back were considering up to 2043.

Are you really making comparisons between NR as an organisation with a single personage as a mayor who will not be around for many years to come. As I have already said, I do understand that this is naught but a thread upon the Speculation Discussion forum.

Do you honestly believe that the required funding for one man's railway aspiration will come to fruition when recent Trump-led events that led to an increase to 5% defence spending and all other Government departments who always take preference over that of transport are considered.

 

[The Planner]

Are you really making comparisons between NR as an organisation with a single personage as a mayor who will not be around for many years to come. As I have already said, I do understand that this is naught but a thread upon the Speculation Discussion forum.

Do you honestly believe that the required funding for one man's railway aspiration will come to fruition when recent Trump-led events that led to an increase to 5% defence spending and all other Government departments who always take preference over that of transport are considered.

Yes, as wider transport organisations, councils etc have an input into the work. Whether it is funded or happens or not is a very different thing, but to say you cannot forecast is incorrect. Remember that one man that is of no importance now destroyed any further parts of HS2, so it works both ways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

About time we as a country dreamed and aspired for something big for the future. We will need to dream and act big to solve the great problems we will face in the future. The status quo will simply not do!

The aspirational Y-axis of HS2 north of Birmingham definitely fell into the "dream and aspire for something big for the future" scenario but it is always good to remember that events can overtake even the most heart-felt of aspirations and it needs someone to play the part of Devil's Advocate on speculative threads as this one.

 

[Farnborough]

A visionary is a someone who plants a tree knowing they will never benefit from its shade.

The best time to plant a tree was before today.

The second best time is today!

 

[mangad]

Where does Andy Burnham expect to be in 25 years time in 2050? Anyone can make statements about what will happen in 25 years time without the knowledge of how the country will look in 2050?

1974: The London Rail Study recommends the building of an underground line connecting Paddington and Liverpool Street.
2022: trains start running along the line.

It took a ridiculously long time. But you need to have the vision. And someone needs to push that initial vision. To make a case for it. To fight for it. Loudly. London didn't have a mayor like it has now in the 1970s. Maybe if it did, one of the holders of it would have shouted about Crossrail from the rooftops and meant it was built in slightly faster timescale.

By the way, the idea of putting underground is definitely not new. They've been talking about it for a couple of years now. This isn't some idea Andy Burnham's come up after a few pints. This is people looking at the problems that the public transport system in Manchester city centre faces, finding solutions, and the Mayor doing his job and championing it. The reality is that there's only so many roads you can put the trams down before you run out of space. But unless you shout about it, it'll be fifty years before it happens.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2025 ==

Do you honestly believe that the required funding for one man's railway aspiration will come to fruition when recent Trump-led events that led to an increase to 5% defence spending and all other Government departments who always take preference over that of transport are considered.

Those who NEVER ask, NEVER receive.
Those who DO ask, MAY receive.

 

[WAB]

An interesting contrast with Bristol is Cardiff where a 'half a cake' approach is producing a servicable, if far from perfect, Metro system while Bristol has had to fight for decades to get 1tph to Portishead

The Cardiff metro is a prime example of why you need to have vision and a strong campaign. It was seen as ridiculously infeasible but look where it has got to now, and what will emerge in the coming years.

 

[mangad]

I know this is in the Speculative Discussion thread, but I think it's worth pointing out that the idea of a tunnel under Manchester has been with us quite a few years, even ignoring the Picc-Vic tunnel. Nor is this the flight and fantasy of one politician (this is no Bridge to Ireland).

A few I dug up:

• July 2024 - Manchester Evening News: The new plan to blaze a tunnel under Manchester - will it ever happen?
• February 2021 - Business Live: Banning cars, a Metrolink tunnel and 20mph zones: Manchester Council consultation seeks new transport plan.
• September 2020 - Manchester Evening News: A tunnel under the city, bigger Piccadilly Gardens and pedestrianised Deansgate... the six biggest city centre transport ideas being looked at.
• June 2018 - New Civil Engineer: Rail tunnel mooted to run under Manchester
• February 2017 - Modern Railways: Picc-Vic Reborn

Note that the Modern Railways article is about TfGM's ‘Greater Manchester Transport Strategy 2040’, and was published before Andy Burnham was even elected. Like I say, this is stuff people have been thinking about for quite a while.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know this is in the Speculative Discussion thread, but I think it's worth pointing out that the idea of a tunnel under Manchester has been with us quite a few years, even ignoring the Picc-Vic tunnel. Nor is this the flight and fantasy of one politician (this is no Bridge to Ireland).

A few I dug up:

• July 2024 - Manchester Evening News: The new plan to blaze a tunnel under Manchester - will it ever happen?
• February 2021 - Business Live: Banning cars, a Metrolink tunnel and 20mph zones: Manchester Council consultation seeks new transport plan.
• September 2020 - Manchester Evening News: A tunnel under the city, bigger Piccadilly Gardens and pedestrianised Deansgate... the six biggest city centre transport ideas being looked at.
• June 2018 - New Civil Engineer: Rail tunnel mooted to run under Manchester
• February 2017 - Modern Railways: Picc-Vic Reborn

Note that the Modern Railways article is about TfGM's ‘Greater Manchester Transport Strategy 2040’, and was published before Andy Burnham was even elected. Like I say, this is stuff people have been thinking about for quite a while.

Manchester Evening News will never be allowed to forget their totally fallacious front page banner headline of "20 DEAD" during the Strangeways prison riots.

 

[NCT]

I look forward to see the next version of Places for Everyone (GM's spatial planning strategy). The current one is nowhere near producing Underground numbers and falls well short of meeting the government's housing targets. It also allocates homes to the wrong locations - too much emphasis on houses on greenfield sites and almost silent on redeveloping town centre big box retail sites to mixed-use continental densities.

That said there are some promising proposals in the pipeline. Much of Trafford, Stretford and Sale does have densitification proposals, Altrincham has had some densification lately. We need to see current plans come to fruition and more proposed and delivered for places like Prestwich, Whitefield, Radcliffe and Bury. At the same time efforts at reducing car use into Central Manchester need to be much more aggresive. There needs to be a credible trajectory of public transport tripling from current levels for an underground solution to start to be viable.

The first underground line needs to be cheap. A simple, short-ish twin bore tunnel with a limited number of cut-and-cover stations. No junctions, no mixed modes. Any such scheme also needs to be able to directly release existing network capacity.

Altrincham - Bury is the best performing transport corridor today and has the biggest potential to generate metro numbers. Underneath Deansgate is the most straightforward alignment for the first Manchester tunnelled metro. Put Altrincham - Bury into a tunnel between Old Trafford and Queen's Road, then you are able to double the capacity for the Trafford Centre / Media City - Oldham direction, which happen to be the next best corridor to support capacity expansion.

 

[aron2smith]

I know this is in the Speculative Discussion thread, but I think it's worth pointing out that the idea of a tunnel under Manchester has been with us quite a few years, even ignoring the Picc-Vic tunnel. Nor is this the flight and fantasy of one politician (this is no Bridge to Ireland).

I wish someone could find a way of building a bridge or tunnel to Ireland, it would either force Ryanair out of business or actually be a decent airline!

And funnily enough when visiting Liverpool and Manchester. I thought to myself Liverpool needs trams alongside its tunnelled Merseyrail stations, whilst Manchester needs at least a couple underground stations to connect services out of Piccadilly and Victoria a lot better to add to the more local Metrolink. Piccadilly could do with a few more through platforms for sure, above ground or under ground.

 

[mangad]

I look forward to see the next version of Places for Everyone (GM's spatial planning strategy). The current one is nowhere near producing Underground numbers and falls well short of meeting the government's housing targets. It also allocates homes to the wrong locations - too much emphasis on houses on greenfield sites and almost silent on redeveloping town centre big box retail sites to mixed-use continental densities.

There's "Underground" and there's "underground". I don't see Metrolink going up to every 70 seconds in frequency any time soon - nice as it would be.

That said there are some promising proposals in the pipeline. Much of Trafford, Stretford and Sale does have densitification proposals, Altrincham has had some densification lately. We need to see current plans come to fruition and more proposed and delivered for places like Prestwich, Whitefield, Radcliffe and Bury. At the same time efforts at reducing car use into Central Manchester need to be much more aggresive. There needs to be a credible trajectory of public transport tripling from current levels for an underground solution to start to be viable.

The first underground line needs to be cheap. A simple, short-ish twin bore tunnel with a limited number of cut-and-cover stations. No junctions, no mixed modes. Any such scheme also needs to be able to directly release existing network capacity.

Whilst I doubt they've gone as far as thinking about how stations would be built, what's being spoken about for some years now is an underground city centre tunnel to take (at least some) trams off the streets. I doubt you can do it without junctions - they'll want to connect Piccadilly in somehow. But I doubt they'll do much more beyond the city centre zone - subject to where they can build the tunnel entrances. Which no doubt will be close to the existing lines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Underneath Deansgate is the most straightforward alignment for the first Manchester tunnelled metro. Put Altrincham - Bury into a tunnel between Old Trafford and Queen's Road, then you are able to double the capacity for the Trafford Centre / Media City - Oldham direction, which happen to be the next best corridor to support capacity expansion.

Is there not a plan for a Sandhills tram stop, to serve a large new residential development plan, that is said to be situated just outside the northern portals of the existing Collyhurst tunnel, which would be within the tunnel area referred to?

 

[NCT]

Is there not a plan for a Sandhills tram stop, to serve a large new residential development plan, that is said to be situated just outside the northern portals of the existing Collyhurst tunnel, which would be within the tunnel area referred to?

Surely such a Sandhills stop would still be on the existing route to Oldham?