Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Goldfish62]

It depends if the DfT think they can make more money by bringing out contactless fares to a wider area by introducing evening peak fares.

They don't need contactless to introduce evening peak fares.

 

[Benjwri]

They don't need contactless to introduce evening peak fares.

It’s a good guise to good it though, reduces bad PR.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s a good guise to good it though, reduces bad PR.

It would be an odd and very expensive way to increase revenue when the simple method of simply introducing an evening peak fare exists.

I think the point I was making in my earlier past is being fundamentally misunderstood. In order for the DfT to save the money required by the Treasury, in line with most government departments, the axe is being wielded on very worthy and important schemes such as finishing Dawlish sea defences and MML electrification to Sheffield in order to save money. Further extensions of contactless seem to be getting more and non-committal so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the second phase is the last one we will see for the foreseeable future.

 

[Trainbike46]

It would be an odd and very expensive way to increase revenue when the simple method of simply introducing an evening peak fare exists.

I think the point I was making in my earlier past is being fundamentally misunderstood. In order for the DfT to save the money required by the Treasury, in line with most government departments, the axe is being wielded on very worthy and important schemes such as finishing Dawlish sea defences and MML electrification to Sheffield in order to save money. Further extensions of contactless seem to be getting more and non-committal so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the second phase is the last one we will see for the foreseeable future.

But contactless is supposed to increase revenue - so if you're trying to increase DfT financial position, expanding contactless is a good idea.

 

[Goldfish62]

But contactless is supposed to increase revenue - so if you're trying to increase DfT financial position, expanding contactless is a good idea.

It requires capital funding. That is the issue I'm trying (unsuccessfully it appears) to get across.

 

[duffield]

But contactless is supposed to increase revenue - so if you're trying to increase DfT financial position, expanding contactless is a good idea.

I'm pretty sure it makes a lot of people less price-sensitive, when they don't even see the amount before they start their journey, or even at the end. Using contactless on public transport barely feels like spending money at all.

 

[Trainbike46]

It requires capital funding. That is the issue I'm trying (unsuccessfully it appears) to get across.

It's relatively limited capital expenditure, for a decrease in revenue spending that starts very quickly, so I fully understand why you wouldn't cut it (as valuable as the other projects you mention are!)

 

[aron2smith]

It depends if the DfT think they can make more money by bringing out contactless fares to a wider area by introducing evening peak fares.

Why wouldn't contactless make it to Cambridge stations? It's a logical extension and clearly apart of London's commuter area. Ideally all of Thameslink's services would come under a south east's contactless (and yes that includes Peterborough!)

 

[hwl]

Why wouldn't contactless make it to Cambridge stations? It's a logical extension and clearly apart of London's commuter area. Ideally all of Thameslink's services would come under a south east's contactless (and yes that includes Peterborough!)

Cambridge is a two large TOCs problem, hence both operators stopping the roll out short at this stage as they will have to coordinate for the next stage.

 

[jon81uk]

It depends if the DfT think they can make more money by bringing out contactless fares to a wider area by introducing evening peak fares.

I doubt evening peak would change the revenue significantly. Many people commuting are buying anytime day return (if not season ticket holders) so are already paying the peak fare currently.
But for those who then stay out into the evening so return after the evening peak, the cost of the commute on those days will go down.

 

[JonathanH]

I doubt evening peak would change the revenue significantly. Many people commuting are buying anytime day return (if not season ticket holders) so are already paying the peak fare currently.

Yes, the 'need' to maintain revenue from peak / peak passengers is very much more dominant than the 'opportunity' to make more money from off-peak / peak passengers. However, the off-peak / peak passengers 'need' to be charged more to offset the bigger loss from peak / off-peak passengers who no longer pay peak / peak fares.

 

[jon0844]

Why wouldn't contactless make it to Cambridge stations? It's a logical extension and clearly apart of London's commuter area. Ideally all of Thameslink's services would come under a south east's contactless (and yes that includes Peterborough!)

I agree that TL needs contactless to be accepted on its entire route. While IC operations are clearly going to be exceptions given the long distances involved (although arguably as part of any future ticketing simplification, you might potentially have contactless able to cover a single fare even from London to Edinburgh - it's more a case of how the DfT and banks will authorise a potential payment of £100 for a single journey, say, after taking just 10p initially!).

If you board a suburban train, I think it's fair to assume you can pay with a card to/from any station the train calls at. But there are clear issues that need to be addressed (as stated above) for things like services to Kings Lynn, down to places like Dover and Margate etc. All are doable of course. Heck, you could do every station in the country if you found a way to ensure people aren't going to be unable to pay the fare when it's charged overnight and leaves users overdrawn OR the DfT doesn't get paid.

One issue might be that people are going to find ways to avoid payments, by getting virtual cards or pre-paid cards that don't have sufficient credit and getting free trips. It must already be an issue, but I assume banks do pay the DfT/TfL even if a user doesn't on the current arrangement - but would they when contactless expands ever further?

 

[Sonic1234]

I'm pretty sure it makes a lot of people less price-sensitive, when they don't even see the amount before they start their journey, or even at the end. Using contactless on public transport barely feels like spending money at all.

And there we have the reason behind Oval. It's about obfuscation of the fares.

Seeing a price on a screen when buying a ticket, or handing over cash at a ticket office makes people very aware of what a journey costs - leading onto the question of "is it worth it?" Contactless is tap the magic card and off you go, yes you can register on TfL and see a breakdown but for most people it's just an aggregated (daily, weekly?) charge on a bank statement which they never check.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why wouldn't contactless make it to Cambridge stations? It's a logical extension and clearly apart of London's commuter area. Ideally all of Thameslink's services would come under a south east's contactless (and yes that includes Peterborough!)

Peterborugh would be very expensive to implemnet , it would need a whole new gateline.

 

[jon0844]

And there we have the reason behind Oval. It's about obfuscation of the fares.

Seeing a price on a screen when buying a ticket, or handing over cash at a ticket office makes people very aware of what a journey costs - leading onto the question of "is it worth it?" Contactless is tap the magic card and off you go, yes you can register on TfL and see a breakdown but for most people it's just an aggregated (daily, weekly?) charge on a bank statement which they never check.

To be fair, people happily do this all over the world and trust the system to work things out properly - not thinking it's some deep state evil plot. I used my first tap in, tap out, bus not that long ago and I just trusted it. I go abroad and tap to travel without needing to use ticket machines or look up fares and ticket types that might not be obvious by their naming and restrictions, and I just assume it's the best price. Maybe there are cheaper options, but it is very convenient.

 

[MikeWh]

Peterborugh would be very expensive to implemnet , it would need a whole new gateline.

Why? Is Peterborough not gated? Is "The Key" valid from there?

 

[johncrossley]

Why? Is Peterborough not gated? Is "The Key" valid from there?

The KeyGo pay-as-you-go scheme only goes as far as Huntingdon, presumably to avoid complications at Peterborough.

 

[Watershed]

Why? Is Peterborough not gated? Is "The Key" valid from there?

KeyGo isn't valid. Pre-purchased tickets loaded to smartcard are. I think what @Wallsendmag is alluding to, in his usual oblique manner , is that you need Cubic gates to support TfL PAYG. Other manufacturers like Vix (?) support PAYG but Cubic presumably won't allow them to interface with their system.

 

[Haywain]

Other manufacturers like Vix (?) support PAYG

S&B gates at Peterborough, IIRC.

 

[Sonic1234]

To be fair, people happily do this all over the world and trust the system to work things out properly - not thinking it's some deep state evil plot.

The point, in my opinion, of Oval is not a deep state plot but obscuring information from passengers. If I want to go into London from Reading and use the tube, it will cost £35.40. With a paper ticket, I will clearly see that price in bold letters on a screen (or rarely these days, counting out that money at a ticket office) and printed on the ticket. Knowing the price leads to the question of is it worth it - do I value this journey at £35.40 or not? For some people, the answer will be no (or just this once but I'm not paying that again).

With contactless, I just tap a card and go. No idea that my days travel may cost £35.40 (or less, or more). While it can be found out what the cost is, most people won't bother. Nor are most people going through bank statements with a fine tooth comb. So the question of is it worth it doesn't arise for the majority. It makes the railway more like car travel, where each journey has a cost but it's hard to calculate so the cost is underestimated or ignored.

 

[MikeWh]

The point, in my opinion, of Oval is not a deep state plot but obscuring information from passengers.

And this is my biggest bugbear about the whole system. You can find out what individual fares are, and caps too, but make a journey from outside London to outside London the other side and there is no way of knowing what you'll be charged. There needs to be so much more transparency, and I'm trying my hardest to get that released, one stage at a time. Keep watching my site because the section relating to SE Rail PAYG will be getting much bigger over the coming weeks.

 

[jon0844]

The point, in my opinion, of Oval is not a deep state plot but obscuring information from passengers. If I want to go into London from Reading and use the tube, it will cost £35.40. With a paper ticket, I will clearly see that price in bold letters on a screen (or rarely these days, counting out that money at a ticket office) and printed on the ticket. Knowing the price leads to the question of is it worth it - do I value this journey at £35.40 or not? For some people, the answer will be no (or just this once but I'm not paying that again).

With contactless, I just tap a card and go. No idea that my days travel may cost £35.40 (or less, or more). While it can be found out what the cost is, most people won't bother. Nor are most people going through bank statements with a fine tooth comb. So the question of is it worth it doesn't arise for the majority. It makes the railway more like car travel, where each journey has a cost but it's hard to calculate so the cost is underestimated or ignored.

People seem happy to do it - even if there are cheaper super off peak tickets (and railcard discounts), but I agree that it's nice to know the cost before.

I am disappointed it's STILL not possible to associate a railcard with a payment card though. That's long overdue.

 

[aron2smith]

Peterborugh would be very expensive to implemnet , it would need a whole new gateline.

I don't understand why would it be any different to how Reading is now. Loads of different routes meet there, only 1 route accepts contactless. And surely if coming from Paddington, contactless and gates don't care if you took the Elizabeth Line, a slow GWR or a fast GWR Intercity train. Surely the same would apply at Peterborough, whether you took Thameslink or LNER Intercity? I guess we will find out soon in a way as Stevenage is one of the next 49 stations to get contactless and of course served by both Commuter and Intercity services.

We better get an update soon though. This is taking way too long. I just want my contactless to Harlow and Stansted already!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2025 ==

I agree that TL needs contactless to be accepted on its entire route. While IC operations are clearly going to be exceptions given the long distances involved (although arguably as part of any future ticketing simplification, you might potentially have contactless able to cover a single fare even from London to Edinburgh - it's more a case of how the DfT and banks will authorise a potential payment of £100 for a single journey, say, after taking just 10p initially!).

If you board a suburban train, I think it's fair to assume you can pay with a card to/from any station the train calls at. But there are clear issues that need to be addressed (as stated above) for things like services to Kings Lynn, down to places like Dover and Margate etc. All are doable of course. Heck, you could do every station in the country if you found a way to ensure people aren't going to be unable to pay the fare when it's charged overnight and leaves users overdrawn OR the DfT doesn't get paid.

One issue might be that people are going to find ways to avoid payments, by getting virtual cards or pre-paid cards that don't have sufficient credit and getting free trips. It must already be an issue, but I assume banks do pay the DfT/TfL even if a user doesn't on the current arrangement - but would they when contactless expands ever further?

I think given the complex nature of our railways, I wouldn't ever expect a nationwide contactless system but I would expect all of the Passenger Transport Executive Areas to have contactless and ideally place train and bus under the same system for capping and hopper fares. Just London's would be much much bigger than the rest, covering all of the South East/ Home Counties and Most of the East. Thameslink just happens to give a good indicator of how big this area would be. Whether that means a contactless journey that starts in a London and South East zone but ends in a West Midlands zone, why couldn't it be possible some day?

I would expect a range of extension tickets similar to boundary zone 6 to be readily available as this system develops too. It would all be much simpler if we moved to a distance/ zonal fares system though.

 

[SynthD]

Knowing the price leads to the question of is it worth it

Journey planners such as Citymapper tell the user the price, but give no way of paying, as it's likely in this contactless area. This disconnect between planning and paying reduces the times your point is valid, as does standard commuting. And then there are caps, so I'm interested in what Mike has, or suggestions anyone has on how caps can be transparent enough. The fact that a journey at the end of a day is not consistently charged at the same rate is a good thing. The most I've planned ahead in regard to this is to have a vague idea of what it would cost without a cap, and know it could be less than that.

 

[A S Leib]

Surely the same would apply at Peterborough, whether you took Thameslink or LNER Intercity? I guess we will find out soon in a way as Stevenage is one of the next 49 stations to get contactless and of course served by both Commuter and Intercity services.

LNER is the cheaper option from Stevenage to London, at least in some cases; £22.80 for an any permitted off-peak day return to King's Cross or £21.20 for two LNER only off-peak singles. LNER's the main fare setter for Peterborough to London and the fare difference is big enough that it might justify surviving into GBR (£51.10 any permitted vs £38.30 Thameslink / Great Northern).

Somewhere where there's a gap of fifteen miles between stations also seems a logical place for a barrier if one has to be set.

 

[JonathanH]

People seem happy to do it - even if there are cheaper super off peak tickets (and railcard discounts), but I agree that it's nice to know the cost before.

I am disappointed it's STILL not possible to associate a railcard with a payment card though. That's long overdue.

As you note, people are happy to forgo discounts for the convenience. That applies as much to railcards as it does to super off peak tickets. Discussion in the thread has ranged from the idea that a solution for railcards on Contactless will be found, to the idea that a separate smartcard will be needed and railcards will never be possible on Contactless.

And surely if coming from Paddington, contactless and gates don't care if you took the Elizabeth Line, a slow GWR or a fast GWR Intercity train. Surely the same would apply at Peterborough, whether you took Thameslink or LNER Intercity?

There is no difference in GWR and Elizabeth Line fares between Paddington and Reading (although there are some different peak easements). In contrast, the Peterborough fares for LNER and Thameslink are somewhat different (and it is over double the distance from London).

Whether that means a contactless journey that starts in a London and South East zone but ends in a West Midlands zone, why couldn't it be possible some day?

The London and South East zone is being set up by TfL / Cubic as an extension of the pre-existing London Contactless implementation. It would be odd if the West Midlands zone implementation is also set up by TfL (and to the extent Contactless is already available on transport in the West Midlands it has been set up by other parties).

 

[MikeWh]

The London and South East zone is being set up by TfL / Cubic as an extension of the pre-existing London Contactless implementation. It would be odd if the West Midlands zone implementation is also set up by TfL (and to the extent Contactless is already available on transport in the West Midlands it has been set up by other parties).

I don't see any way different contactless PAYG systems can overlap. If you touch in at a dual station, how do you know which system to go with, especially if there then isn't a corresponding touch out. It's one reason why I'm skeptical that the London/South East system will actually get to Brighton. There would be a lot of sense in setting up a South Coast system up to Horsham/Haywards Heath in my view. TfL might be able to work with Brighton centred caps, but I'd be surprised if they'd also include buses down there.

 

[sad1e]

I don't see any way different contactless PAYG systems can overlap. If you touch in at a dual station, how do you know which system to go with, especially if there then isn't a corresponding touch out. It's one reason why I'm skeptical that the London/South East system will actually get to Brighton. There would be a lot of sense in setting up a South Coast system up to Horsham/Haywards Heath in my view. TfL might be able to work with Brighton centred caps, but I'd be surprised if they'd also include buses down there.

If contactless gets to that point the only solution I see is creating a national contactless transport system, it's gonna happen eventually to be honest.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I don't see any way different contactless PAYG systems can overlap. If you touch in at a dual station, how do you know which system to go with, especially if there then isn't a corresponding touch out. It's one reason why I'm skeptical that the London/South East system will actually get to Brighton. There would be a lot of sense in setting up a South Coast system up to Horsham/Haywards Heath in my view. TfL might be able to work with Brighton centred caps, but I'd be surprised if they'd also include buses down there.

Aha you haven't heard of the Tap Converter then?

 

[MikeWh]

Aha you haven't heard of the Tap Converter then?

No, I haven't. Are you able to enlighten me?