Tube trains on Harrogate Line

[telstarbox]

Just heard on BBC Look North about proposals to use old District line stock on the Harrogate line. Can't find any sources online - any thoughts?

 

[tom1649]

Just heard on BBC Look North about proposals to use old District line stock on the Harrogate line. Can't find any sources online - any thoughts?

Thinking of third rail electrification are they? I thought any new third rail electrification had to be an extension of an existing system.

I imagine the chances of this happening are virtually zero.

Anyone care to produce a mock up of a D Stock in Northern Rail livery?

 

[Nonsense]

Does seem implausible. Unless they're thinking of dragging them, which doesn't seem plausible either.

 

[tom1649]

The D stock will be pushing 35 years old when they are withdrawn from LUL service.

 

[route:oxford]

Just heard on BBC Look North about proposals to use old District line stock on the Harrogate line. Can't find any sources online - any thoughts?

Story is here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14143032

 

[OuterDistant]

35 years old = brand new on the Isle of Wight!

 

[fgwrich]

Just found the Article on BBC News, think of the words pipe and dream come to mind!

The scheme, if successful, could be running by 2014.

Ah ok, so thats 2 1/2 years to add 3rd and possibly 4th rail from York to Leeds via Knaresborough & Harrogate...

And 2014 start? With the D Stock due for replacement from 2013 till 2016, I very much doubt it!

TfL upgrade plan

From 2013, we'll be introducing 80 new trains. These will be air-conditioned and have walk-through carriages. To improve accessibility, they will also have wider doors and walkways, lower passenger alarms and a smaller gap between the train and platform.

The new trains should all be in service by 2016

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14143032

EDIT : route: oxford Has just beaton me to the link!

 

[Mojo]

*cough* Who posted this exact idea 2 weeks ago... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=728131&postcount=35

Strange. I heard exactly the same proposal being mooted for the Severn Beach line at a meeting at the end of June.

Apparently the idea came from the DfT, the idea being installing bottom contact third rail on a number of lines across the regional network as a low cost solution to both electrification and rolling stock issues.

As the same story has finally reared its head in other parts of the country then perhaps there is some truth in it!

 

[Statto]

35 years old = brand new on the Isle of Wight!

It sounds like a daft idea, a better idea would be cascading some of the 313s ecc if the Harrogate branch was to be electrified than the Tube D Stock, & would the Platforms have to be rebuilt as well to accommodate the low height of the carriages?

 

[GNERman]

Oh dear...

I can only imagine old Tube stock, uncomfortable on jointed track and going over Skelton Junction, dear god...

And the cost of implementing 3rd and 4th rail??? Too much for a small line like that...

I'll stick with my 142's and 150's, cheers...

 

[Mojo]

It sounds like a daft idea, a better idea would be cascading some of the 313s ecc if the Harrogate branch was to be electrified than the Tube D Stock, & would the Platforms have to be rebuilt as well to accommodate the low height of the carriages?

These are sub-surface stock which is taller than Tube stock, and bearing in mind the large step up between the platform and the train I can't imagine this is much of an issue.

 

[GNERman]

Please though, i'd still rather have a crammed 2-car 142 than one of those...

 

[route:oxford]

Oh dear...

I can only imagine old Tube stock, uncomfortable on jointed track and going over Skelton Junction, dear god...

And the cost of implementing 3rd and 4th rail??? Too much for a small line like that...

I'll stick with my 142's and 150's, cheers...

Would they fit in the Merseyrail tunnels?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Please tell me this is some form of joke? how on gods earth do they expect to do this. why when leeds is overhead electrified would you electrify the harrogate line with 3rd/4th rail..... it seems backwards...... electrify harrogate line 25KV AC then hyou have a common fleet of EMU's for leeds area.

If these go ahead i think i may just go and live on ilkley moor for the rest of my life

 

[Statto]

These are sub-surface stock which is taller than Tube stock, and bearing in mind the large step up between the platform and the train I can't imagine this is much of an issue.

Cheers, even wth it's faults i'd still prefer a 142 than a Tube D Stock if i was using this line though.

 

[CheekyBandit]

About 15 weeks too late ....

 

[codenamecuebal]

it's an abomination

 

[tbtc]

Is it really April 1st again?

The Harrogate line needs electrification, but the normal way.

1. It'd allow 225s to run the Harrogate - London train (currently HST run, despite being under wires for 95% of the route)
2. Its electrified at the Leeds end
3. Its electrified at the York end
4. Its almost entirely self-contained, so almost every service on the Harrogate line each week could be converted to EMU (compared to some routes which are more frequent, but long distance routes mean a lot of DMUs still run under the wires)
5. Commuter traffic could certainly justify similar units to the Ilkley line
6. The doubled up 150s which currently run many Harrogate services (all day) could add capacity to a few other Yorkshire lines
7. Scope for London - York - Harrogate - Leeds - London services!

(why muck this up with Underground trains suitable for short distance travel, but expect people to sit on them for much longer times/distances?)

 

[yorksrob]

Is it really April 1st again?

The Harrogate line needs electrification, but the normal way.

1. It'd allow 225s to run the Harrogate - London train (currently HST run, despite being under wires for 95% of the route)
2. Its electrified at the Leeds end
3. Its electrified at the York end
4. Its almost entirely self-contained, so almost every service on the Harrogate line each week could be converted to EMU (compared to some routes which are more frequent, but long distance routes mean a lot of DMUs still run under the wires)
5. Commuter traffic could certainly justify similar units to the Ilkley line
6. The doubled up 150s which currently run many Harrogate services (all day) could add capacity to a few other Yorkshire lines
7. Scope for London - York - Harrogate - Leeds - London services!

(why muck this up with Underground trains suitable for short distance travel, but expect people to sit on them for much longer times/distances?)

Absolutely spot on.

There's a ready made electric network into which the Harrogate line would fit easily. Plenty of flexibility with rolling stock and train movements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it's an abomination

Looks good in Northern colours though

 

[ainsworth74]

The Harrogate line needs electrification, but the normal way.

1. It'd allow 225s to run the Harrogate - London train (currently HST run, despite being under wires for 95% of the route)
2. Continues with loads more good ideas...

tbtc go wash your keyboard out with soap for typing such good ideas. You know that isn't allowed!

 

[N Levers]

Wern't they thinking of using LU stock on Paddington - Cardiff services to free up HST's...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note the report quotes business leaders on this project. Not a single word is stated about the cost of the project to provide 3rd rail electrification and the distance from Leeds - Harrogate - York is not a short line. This is remarkable in itself from business leaders who can normally be expected to produce detailed costings for most things at the drop of a hat.

There is not one single comment quoted by a member of any rail organisation with regard to technical matters.

The Bramhope Tunnel is on this line. I would refer any forum member to the Infrastructure Forum to a thread called "Tunnel Drainage" on 20/6/2011, and in particular to posting # 3 by Ploughman which is very well detailed and does mention the Bramhope Tunnel in this posting,

 

[ukrob]

Wouldn't their width make them out of gauge anyway? Think they are a bit wider than anything running on NR metals?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It also appears that they have little idea about the height of a third rail:

The power would come from a rail mounted a couple of feet above the track and a "current collector" would run along it, feeding electricity to the trains' motors.

A similar system is already used in the south east of England, on the London Underground and on a large part of Merseyside's commuter network.

 

[jon0844]

It's a new security measure. It powers the trains and keeps trespassers off the line too!

 

[fgwrich]

it's an abomination

Have to admit, the D Stock are pretty solidly built and have a good few years of life left in them - but for any move out of london, i would certainly expect them to go through a slightly more thorough overhaul and replacement of the original light clusters with something more akin to the Merseyrail 507/508s, possible addition of air con, possible bogie / traction motor replacement, replacement of doors & for thurther out use - like the York to Leeds idea, a addition of a toilet & possible corridors!

As for the idea itself, highly unlikely for a route of such lenght! Though the D Stock dosent look too bad in Northern & First Group liveries!



Or you could have it in Southern Livery!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alternativerailways/5179340516/in/photostream

 

[Jonny]

It's a new security measure. It powers the trains and keeps trespassers off the line too!

Hehehe - that's a nice parody of the main safety argument against third rail! although you could "extend" the Merseyrail Network with only minimal sections under 25kV wires:

Hunts Cross (Merseyside) to Deansgate (Manchester)
Deansgate to Salford Crescent
Salford Crescent to Stalybridge, then Leeds (with a possible tee from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge).
Then Leeds-Harrogate-York.

Then you could also run to Huddersfield and across the Pennines etc... and TPE could piggy-back with dual-voltage units (it would then be easier to justify electrifying Neville Hill (Leeds) to Colton Junction (nr. York) with either form) as long as the slight problem of a neutral section near a certain TPE-served station on the ECML can be solved!!!

 

[RobDonkey]

I live in Harrogate so I was amazed to see this had actually been proposed.

I had a long discussion about this with a Knaresborough resident and the list of problems we managed to come up with was rediculous. It strikes me as an idea somebody threw onto the table at a meeting and somebody took it too seriously.

I think the MP will need to have his ear chewed about this considering he claims to be an advocate of railways.

 

[185]

Mind the Gap. And the Cow.

Tis a silly idea as the electrification would cost a fortune, and funding would be unlikely.

 

[gazthomas]

Obsolete technology known not to be as reliable as AC with old stock and an isolated network. Bizarre