If you could open 10 stations in Scotland...

[Bill57p9]

Interesting about Lochwinnoch station, I wonder why they chose to reopen as it isn't a massive settlement.

It was reopened on the day the Kilbirnie loop closed (27 Jun 1966). I therefore presume that the reopening of the Lochside station (as it was named then) was a sweetener / mitigation against the loss of connectivity from the loop closure.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It was reopened on the day the Kilbirnie loop closed (27 Jun 1966). I therefore presume that the reopening of the Lochside station (as it was named then) was a sweetener / mitigation against the loss of connectivity from the loop closure.

Perhaps.

 

[Transilien]

Yes, I did mean Beith North, apologies.
Maybe an extra stop wouldn't be worth it, maybe some line speed improvements could be made to compensate

Line speed is about the maximum possible on the Kilwinning-Johnstone section. More stops on the line would make bunching a bigger problem and therefore negate any improvements from speed without 4 tracking. If money wasn’t an object then I would suggest a new stopping service from Glasgow-Kilwinning or Irvine to let the vast majority of trains to Ayr/Largs be fast. (This would need major infrastructure upgrades of course).

 

[SC318250]

I think there is capacity on Glasgow to Kilwinning line as 2 Ayr services were removed a couple of years ago.
All stops to Kilwinning could even call at Hillington etc and speed up Gourock or Wemyss Bay services.
Kilwinning stopper could either arrive and depart platform 2 or 3 at Kilwinning if times worked or Irvine or Barassie.

 

[Transilien]

I think there is capacity on Glasgow to Kilwinning line as 2 Ayr services were removed a couple of years ago.
All stops to Kilwinning could even call at Hillington etc and speed up Gourock or Wemyss Bay services.
Kilwinning stopper could either arrive and depart platform 2 or 3 at Kilwinning if times worked or Irvine or Barassie.

More stations near Paisley could also be opened for this service to stop at such as Gallowhill and Ferguslie Park.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Line speed is about the maximum possible on the Kilwinning-Johnstone section. More stops on the line would make bunching a bigger problem and therefore negate any improvements from speed without 4 tracking. If money wasn’t an object then I would suggest a new stopping service from Glasgow-Kilwinning or Irvine to let the vast majority of trains to Ayr/Largs be fast. (This would need major infrastructure upgrades of course).

I've suggested before (perhaps here or somewhere else) to close Glasgow (Abbotsinch) for redevelopment as a new town, and make Prestwick the main airport for western Scotland.

In that scenario, I'd envisage heavy rail upgrades to 1) provide an express Glasgow to Prestwick Airport taking 30 mins every 15 mins, calling at Paisley, Kilwinning & Irvine, plus 2) a local Prestwick to Kilmarnock service via Mossblown and Mauchline to connect into Glasgow and South Western Line services.

With your express Glasgow services, you could add some stops to the Ardrossan/Largs, without damaging the overall journey times from the larger settlements like Irvine/Kilwinning into Glasgow too much (e.g. from Ardrossan/Largs line stations, interchange at Kilwinning onto the Prestwick express into Glasgow etc.).

 

[Uncle Buck]

I've suggested before (perhaps here or somewhere else) to close Glasgow (Abbotsinch) for redevelopment as a new town, and make Prestwick the main airport for western Scotland.

In that scenario, I'd envisage heavy rail upgrades to 1) provide an express Glasgow to Prestwick Airport taking 30 mins every 15 mins, calling at Paisley, Kilwinning & Irvine, plus 2) a local Prestwick to Kilmarnock service via Mossblown and Mauchline to connect into Glasgow and South Western Line services.

With your express Glasgow services, you could add some stops to the Ardrossan/Largs, without damaging the overall journey times from the larger settlements like Irvine/Kilwinning into Glasgow too much (e.g. from Ardrossan/Largs line stations, interchange at Kilwinning onto the Prestwick express into Glasgow etc.).

The present Glasgow Airport is highly convenient for most residents of the Greater Glasgow conurbation, whereas Prestwick is thirty-odd miles away. Remember how many people take the taxi to the airport. There is no way this could ever work- charming an airport though Prestwick is (although Glasgow is also a pleasant one IMO).

 

[AlastairFraser]

The present Glasgow Airport is highly convenient for most residents of the Greater Glasgow conurbation, whereas Prestwick is thirty-odd miles away. Remember how many people take the taxi to the airport. There is no way this could ever work- charming an airport though Prestwick is (although Glasgow is also a pleasant one IMO).

It may be convenient, but Prestwick does have the runway and preexisting public transport connection advantage, and there's a fair bit of deprivation on that part of the Ayrshire coast. It would definitely need an express link and some minor road improvements to make Prestwick viable.

 

[Transilien]

I've suggested before (perhaps here or somewhere else) to close Glasgow (Abbotsinch) for redevelopment as a new town, and make Prestwick the main airport for western Scotland.

In that scenario, I'd envisage heavy rail upgrades to 1) provide an express Glasgow to Prestwick Airport taking 30 mins every 15 mins, calling at Paisley, Kilwinning & Irvine, plus 2) a local Prestwick to Kilmarnock service via Mossblown and Mauchline to connect into Glasgow and South Western Line services.

With your express Glasgow services, you could add some stops to the Ardrossan/Largs, without damaging the overall journey times from the larger settlements like Irvine/Kilwinning into Glasgow too much (e.g. from Ardrossan/Largs line stations, interchange at Kilwinning onto the Prestwick express into Glasgow etc.).

Edinburgh airport would probably take all air traffic from the Glasgow area as it is about the same distance from Glasgow as Prestwick is.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Edinburgh airport would probably take all air traffic from the Glasgow area as it is about the same distance from Glasgow as Prestwick is.

Edinburgh is congested though. I'm not saying that Prestwick is perfect, but it does have a lot of potential with pre-existing facilities it has.

 

[Uncle Buck]

It may be convenient, but Prestwick does have the runway and preexisting public transport connection advantage, and there's a fair bit of deprivation on that part of the Ayrshire coast. It would definitely need an express link and some minor road improvements to make Prestwick viable.

I don’t want to be negative Nelly here, but moving the west of Scotland’s main airport to somewhere significantly less convenient because it has a railway station is a case of the tail wagging the dog. If you want better public transport at the region’s main airport, don’t move the airport to Prestwick, build a rail link to Glasgow Airport. But then again, I’m not sure Glasgow Airport is effectively Glasgow’s main airport either, because…

Edinburgh airport would probably take all air traffic from the Glasgow area as it is about the same distance from Glasgow as Prestwick is.

Exactly. Whereas in the past it felt like Glasgow and Edinburgh were equals as airports, nowadays I (in Glasgow) find myself using Edinburgh more often- it is not very far away (indeed, as you say, is about as far as Prestwick is) and has a much better range of destinations. The real objective should be a station at Edinburgh Airport, which has the further advantage of being sited next to the main railway lines in Scotland.

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Edinburgh is congested though. I'm not saying that Prestwick is perfect, but it does have a lot of potential with pre-existing facilities it has.

Simply being a good site in physical geographical terms does not give Prestwick potential- it is, comparatively, in the middle of nowhere. A few years ago I flew to Italy from Prestwick, in the height of school holidays, and I was one of five flights that day. To me, it is a quaint, rather nice airport, but it is a complete backwater.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don’t want to be negative Nelly here, but moving the west of Scotland’s main airport to somewhere significantly less convenient because it has a railway station is a case of the tail wagging the dog. If you want better public transport at the region’s main airport, don’t move the airport to Prestwick, build a rail link to Glasgow Airport. But then again, I’m not sure Glasgow Airport is effectively Glasgow’s main airport either, because…

I agree that they should build a rail/light rail link to Glasgow Airport (probably that Clyde Metro plan via Renfrew and Braehead), but I'm not sure the airport has a future as an airport, and Scotland will probably continue to have a decently high rate of population growth, so more housing will be needed, especially close to cities.

Simply being a good site in physical geographical terms does not give Prestwick potential- it is, comparatively, in the middle of nowhere. A few years ago I flew to Italy from Prestwick, in the height of school holidays, and I was one of five flights that day. To me, it is a quaint, rather nice airport, but it is a complete backwater.

It's a backwater because of somewhat underdeveloped transport links, and a small terminal. It doesn't have to be.
Anyway, let's not drag this thread off course first.
My message inbox should be open if you wish to discuss this further.

 

[EMU303]

Re Glasgow and Edinburgh airports…

would it make sense to build a driverless elevated train between Paisley Gilmour St and Glasgow airport? PGS has about 7 trains per hour to Central and Ayrshire and Inverclyde.

For Edinburgh airport, it always strikes me as a convoluted train/tram journey when coming from the west. You can clearly see the airport control tower as the train speeds along close to the A8 near Ingleston through unbuilt land. Could a station be placed there and a similar driverless elevated train into the airport? It would be quicker than getting off at Haymarket and effectively retracing your steps back towards the airport.

 

[Transilien]

For Edinburgh airport, it always strikes me as a convoluted train/tram journey when coming from the west. You can clearly see the airport control tower as the train speeds along close to the A8 near Ingleston through unbuilt land. Could a station be placed there and a similar driverless elevated train into the airport? It would be quicker than getting off at Haymarket and effectively retracing your steps back towards the airport.

I think that diverting the Glasgow-Edinburgh mainline in a tunnel under Edinburgh airport with a station would be the best and provide both Glasgow and Edinburgh with a high capacity fast connection to Edinburgh Airport.

 

[och aye]

Given the ever increasing passenger numbers at EDI, I do wonder if some new form of EARL will come back to the drawing board in the 2030s/early 2040s?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Edinburgh is congested though. I'm not saying that Prestwick is perfect, but it does have a lot of potential with pre-existing facilities it has.

Getting the Edinburgh-London and Glasgow-London passengers onto high speed trains would go a long way to easing congestion.

You might get Glasgow and Ayrshire passengers to use Prestwick, but the rest of Central Scotland would gravitate to Edinburgh.

You can clearly see the airport control tower as the train speeds along close to the A8 near Ingleston through unbuilt land. Could a station be placed there and a similar driverless elevated train into the airport?

The settlement through which one travels immediately after crossing the M9 is suggestively named 'Ratho Station', and an obvious alignment suggests itself for an extension of the tram system which could also serve the Royal Highland Showground.

Given the ever increasing passenger numbers at EDI, I do wonder if some new form of EARL will come back to the drawing board in the 2030s/early 2040s?

I think something along those lines has to be inevitable. The full EARL approach seemed unnecessarily complex, but a heavy rail station serving lines in the directions of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Fife seems essential to serve air traffic.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Getting the Edinburgh-London and Glasgow-London passengers onto high speed trains would go a long way to easing congestion.

You might get Glasgow and Ayrshire passengers to use Prestwick, but the rest of Central Scotland would gravitate to Edinburgh.

Sure....
If we can get HS2 to Golborne, 4 WCML tracks to Preston and high speed bypasses of places like Lancaster + perhaps a few M6/M74 corridor area high speed bypasses, the high speed journey time becomes viable.
I can see a pig flying too!

 

[Dennyboy]

Assuming two things to be true, that we aren't allowed to propose new track infrastructure (no new lines) and that we aren't allowed to propose new services (that each station opened has to fit into an existing service pattern) then the list is actually very easy.

1. Winchburgh.

This station has a formal design already agreed, and the mechanisms for funding it exist, but haven't yet been triggered. Slot it into the Dunblane services for an easy 2tph off the bat, with extra calls in the peak time Edinburgh to Glasgows. It's about as easy an opening as you can get.

2-7, in any order.

Abronhill
Bannockburn/Stirling South.
Bonnybridge
Bucksburn or Hilton (Aberdeen North)
Cove
Dysart

These all have a service that could be easily stopped, giving a minimum of 2tph right off the bat. They all exist on lines with a relative degree of timetable flexibility, meaning that you could slow down those services and add in an extra stop in each direction without scuffing turnaround times or needing an extra unit.

The first three all have had planning processes started and paused, meaning they've at least proven to be technically feasible, although not necessarily economically so.

Cove, Dysart and Bucksburn are somewhat reliant on future electrification allowing journey time improvements, so you don't slow down end to end journey times by too much, but they're all possible without.

They're all in economically underproductive areas, which buys you points in the economic growth category. They're all less than thirty minutes journey time from the nearest major city centre station, meaning that they get you points in the connectivity category. They're all in areas with poor to moderate public transport provisions, again boosting connectivity.

The exact ordering is probably inconsequential, but again I'd think it likely that reopening stations on electrified lines is altogether better, as you can reduce journey times at the same time as increasing capacity, so I reckon that Cove and Bucksburn would be the last to happen of the bunch (additionally Aberdeen council are generally seen as being unsupportive of rail infrastructure)

8-10

After those six it gets a bit more nebulous.

Cumnock isn't a terrible site for a station, but any station would be underserved with 1tp2h in each direction. Cumnock itself as a fair old way from Glasgow, and Carlisle just doesn't offer the same economic pull. You run very quickly into the fact that economically, any station would be a basket case, even if it would have very positive scores for connectivity and deprivation.

Grangemouth would be a great place for a station, but it's a terrible site for a station. The infrastructure isn't there in the way it would need to be, with the services going to Glasgow and not Edinburgh. Any services to Glasgow would be significantly slower than just driving to Polmont. The station would be in a terrible site for the town, and you'd need more of an infrastructure intervention than just a simple platform.

Cambus would tick a few boxes, get an even 2tph, but it's not that far to Stirling, and there's not much there to connect with a station.

Newtonhill, north of Stonehaven, would be helpful, and 1tph in each direction would be a good boost to the town, but it's a small place.

Mossend/Ravenscraig would fit nicely in the Glasgow suburban network, but it's a bit uncertain what you'd be building it to serve. Maybe if and when the Ravenscraig redevelopment comes online you could get a station through developer contribution funding, but again it's a bit of a long way from Glasgow.

Portobello would be a nice to have, but seems entirely unnecessary given the patching constraints on the ECML out to Drem. Brunstane, although underutilised, is only fifteen minutes walk away, and it's not like Edinburgh doesn't have an amazing, if slow, bus network. You'd probably only be stopping the North Berwick services there as well, which is still only 1tph because of those same capacity constraints, and 1tph for what would be a city station wouldn't compete with buses to any degree.

Blindwells with a big car park would prove to be busy, but again those same pathing constraints make it difficult, and it's not that far to walk to Prestonpans.

A WCML parkway station at Moffat would again be a nice to have, but you run into pathing constraints and service provision issues very quickly. 1tp2h to each of Edinburgh and Glasgow, if you stopped all TPE trains there, would struggle to make a business case.


Ultimately, my 8-10 would be Cambus, Newtonhill and Mossend/Ravenscraig, simply because they're the easiest to reopen, most likely to not be an economic basket case, and easiest to serve.

Could a minimally relocated Abronhill (albeit campaigned for) Station also near-serve Allandale. In common with that of a competing campaign ie Bonnybridge, the siting of either station would provide connectivity with two near-parallel alignments.

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Whitecross between Linlithgow and Polmont.

A station at Mossend's main rail junction, or better still a northeast chord, to enable connectivity between east-west and north-south movements.

 

[waverley47]

Could a minimally relocated Abronhill (albeit campaigned for) Station also near-serve Allandale. In common with that of a competing campaign ie Bonnybridge, the siting of either station would provide connectivity with two near-parallel alignments

There's nothing in Allandale, and there's no point building a four platform station straddling the two lines where the Cumbernauld lines dive under, because nobody would use it. Abronhill and Bonnybridge would support stations in their own right, so you site those stations for maximum benefit for the communities they serve (Abronhill near the Forest Rd overbridge, and Bonnybridge at the Broomhill Rd underbridge)

A station at Mossend's main rail junction, or better still a northeast chord, to enable connectivity between east-west and north-south movements.

Unless something has changed since yesterday morning, there is already a north to east chord at Mossend. There are no services on it because the North Lanarkshire rail network is optimised about capacity and journey times into Glasgow. The only services you'd run that way would be from the Shotts line, via Whifflet into the Glasgow network, but that's an extra twenty minutes on journey times if you divert current services, and if you tried to run a new service, you'd find that nobody used it.

If you meant a north to west chord, the formation is long gone.

A four platform transfer station at the junction, where the lines cross may have some merit, but honestly a station south of Mossend South Junction would be better.