Railcard Prosecution West Midlands Trains

[monad]

Hello my lovely people, hope all is well in the land of...eh rails.

I've recently (today) recieved a letter from West Midland Trains (or rather ITAL) with the intention to persecute unless I pay £189.70 within 14 days (the letter was sent on July 2nd so techincally I need to sort this out in 7 days ) for failure to show a ticket for my journey from Stafford to Birmingham. So here's the scoop leading to this event:

On May 1st, my wife booked 2 return split save tickets from Birmingham New Street to Manchester Picadilly on Trainline (I can produce receipts if needed) and accidentally used the 16-25 railcard on both tickets (she has a valid one herself). I have a valid 26-30 railcard and this is what she meant to put, but alas human error. We weren't aware of the hicup until after we were coming back to New Street trying to get out of the ticket barriers and were stopped by the railway protection agents (or whatever they are called). He informed us of our ticket/railcard issue upon which is when we all pieced together what happened.

After showing him both of our railcards he decided to fine only myself a penalty fare for Stafford to Birmingham New Street (out of sympathy). He advised us to appeal but because we wanted to get it done and over with we just paid the discounted rate on May 7th. Out of relief, I threw away the penalty fare ticket as I thought I was done with this (rookie mistake).


HOWEVER, on June 2nd, I recieved a letter (which my wife has now lost) from WMT telling me I had not paid this penalty, however it was for a different penalty fare reference but for the same day (May 1st) and for the same trip (Stafford to Birmingham New Street) . We were only handed the one penalty fare and there was no mention of another one. I immediately contacted the customer service team at ITAL/IRCAS by phone at first only to realise my money was being eaten and it was all automated. I then emailed them to which they responded about 9 days later asking me if I was travelling alone. However I did not respond back in time due to being on holiday (which quite literally turned into an active warzone so I was trying to get out of the country hence my delay in response), but after 11 days I had no response from them :





After receiving no response, I went on with my merry life and newfound mild PTSD and that leads us today when I received the below letter:


I'm a bit confused with my options, I probably getting nowhere with the customer service email, last time I tried calling the line I was charged an arm and a leg trying to get in touch with a human. I've also just noticed that there's a phone number for ITAL in one of my screenshots so i will try getting in touch tomorrow to see what i can do.
From my standpoint, I have paid my fine as i was the only passenger with what is technically an invalid ticket whereas my wife's stuff is in order and valid (and confirmed by the ticket protection railway enforcer whatever you call the dude that hands out the penalty fare). From Charlotte's mail, it looks like they are assuming it's for 2 people. But I genuinely not sure how to approach this properly given we were only given one penalty fare but it's literally my word against whatever they have.


I would die for my wife. I wouldn't mind taking a criminal record for her too, but I'd really like to avoid that along without paying £189 for something I already paid if possible

 

[furlong]

Did you present your 26-30 railcard?

The first thing is to establish whether the fare paid for was the correct amount or not.

(Historically it was permitted for the holder of a valid 26-30 railcard to purchase a ticket using a 16-25 discount.)

Please confirm the time of the journey and the precise tickets used (including the amount paid).

If it is the case that the amount paid was correct but there was just the mere technicality of the wrong railcard being selected, then you should write back politely, apologising, including evidence of valid railcards and tickets, but asking if they'll drop the matter on this basis and refund what you already paid. If they don't, then go to Transport Focus as this is the sort of case they sometimes take on successfully. There was a recent report making clear that train companies shouldn't be proceeding with action in such circumstances (no financial loss - just a trivial technicality) and suggesting the framework within which they operate ought be updated accordingly to prevent them.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is quite tricky to follow. This is what I think has happened - can you confirm if this is correct?

• On 1st May you and your wife travelled from Manchester to Birmingham New Street. Your wife purchased Advance Splitsave tickets through Trainline (Manchester to Stafford and Stafford to Birmingham New Street). A 16-25 Railcard was applied to all of the tickets.
• You hold a 26-30 Railcard, your wife holds a 16-25 Railcard
• Upon arrival at Birmingham New Street you were issued with a Penalty Fare because you couldn't show the correct railcard
• On 7th May you paid the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate. You threw the Penalty Fare notice away.
• On 2nd June you received a letter from ITAL saying that the Penalty Fare had not been paid. The reference number was for a different Penalty Fare notice (but issued on the same day)
• You wrote to ITAL about this and they asked if you were travelling alone. You didn't reply as you were away on holiday.

Please can you tell us if what I have summarised above is correct. Can you also tell us:

• Did your wife have a 16-25 Railcard
• Were both your wife's railcard and your railcard in date on 1st May and were they in your possession when you made the journey?
• Was your wife issued with a Penalty Fare?
• You said the PF reference number in ITAL's letter was different to the PF tat you paid. How do you know this is you threw away the Penalty Fare notice?
• Did you get a receipt for the Penalty Fare that you paid? Have you still got it?

Firstly, the Penalty Fare that was issued to you. At the time I'd have said there was a good chance of a successful appeal but unfortunately an appeal has to be submitted within 21-days and your now well beyond that time. So I don't think there's anything you can do about that.

Next, the 'second' Penalty Fare. You need to find out more about this. Based on what you've told us there shouldn't be another Penalty Fare so I think you need to write a short, concise letter to ITAL explaining what happed and asking for more information on the second Penalty Fare. Given the timescale involved it needs to be send quickly. It's important that what you say to ITAL is worded correctly so feel free to pop a draft in this thread and forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[monad]

Did you present your 26-30 railcard?

The first thing is to establish whether the fare paid for was the correct amount or not.

(Historically it was permitted for the holder of a valid 26-30 railcard to purchase a ticket using a 16-25 discount.)

Please confirm the time of the journey and the precise tickets used (including the amount paid).

If it is the case that the amount paid was correct but there was just the mere technicality of the wrong railcard being selected, then you should write back politely, apologising, including evidence of valid railcards and tickets, but asking if they'll drop the matter on this basis and refund what you already paid. If they don't, then go to Transport Focus as this is the sort of case they sometimes take on successfully. There was a recent report making clear that train companies shouldn't be proceeding with action in such circumstances (no financial loss - just a trivial technicality) and suggesting the framework within which they operate ought be updated accordingly to prevent them.

I presented my railcard after explaining/figuring out the situation, the man even agreed there was no price difference but still fined me due to the incorrect railcard.

Ive attached both receipts here which were Advance Single standard, without the trainline booking fee both tickets were £32.80 each. Also timings attached, it would have been the 11:03-12:33 train from Manchester Piccadilly

I’ll take your advice and write to them even if I can get in touch with them on the phone so there’s a paper trail. If not Transport Focus seems to be the way to go! Thank you so much for the advice !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

Welcome to the forum!

This is quite tricky to follow. This is what I think has happened - can you confirm if this is correct?

• On 1st May you and your wife travelled from Manchester to Birmingham New Street. Your wife purchased Advance Splitsave tickets through Trainline (Manchester to Stafford and Stafford to Birmingham New Street). A 16-25 Railcard was applied to all of the tickets.
• You hold a 26-30 Railcard, your wife holds a 16-25 Railcard
• Upon arrival at Birmingham New Street you were issued with a Penalty Fare because you couldn't show the correct railcard
• On 7th May you paid the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate. You threw the Penalty Fare notice away.
• On 2nd June you received a letter from ITAL saying that the Penalty Fare had not been paid. The reference number was for a different Penalty Fare notice (but issued on the same day)
• You wrote to ITAL about this and they asked if you were travelling alone. You didn't reply as you were away on holiday.

Please can you tell us if what I have summarised above is correct. Can you also tell us:

• Did your wife have a 16-25 Railcard
• Were both your wife's railcard and your railcard in date on 1st May and were they in your possession when you made the journey?
• Was your wife issued with a Penalty Fare?
• You said the PF reference number in ITAL's letter was different to the PF tat you paid. How do you know this is you threw away the Penalty Fare notice?
• Did you get a receipt for the Penalty Fare that you paid? Have you still got it?

Firstly, the Penalty Fare that was issued to you. At the time I'd have said there was a good chance of a successful appeal but unfortunately an appeal has to be submitted within 21-days and your now well beyond that time. So I don't think there's anything you can do about that.

Next, the 'second' Penalty Fare. You need to find out more about this. Based on what you've told us there shouldn't be another Penalty Fare so I think you need to write a short, concise letter to ITAL explaining what happed and asking for more information on the second Penalty Fare. Given the timescale involved it needs to be send quickly. It's important that what you say to ITAL is worded correctly so feel free to pop a draft in this thread and forum members will proof read it for you.

Yup thats more or less correct, regarding your questions:

- Wifey did have a 16-25 railcard
-Both our railcards were in date and are still valid. Both railcards were presented and acknowledged
-Nope only I was issued with a penalty date as she had the correct railcard for her ticket
-I know this was a different penalty because the penalty fare reference on my payment receipt (the email is in my original post but i crossed it because i didn’t know if that counts as personal data) did not match the one they were talking about
-Yes as per above

I will certainly take your advice and up on your advice, watch this space. Many thanks!

 

[WesternLancer]

I presented my railcard after explaining/figuring out the situation, the man even agreed there was no price difference but still fined me due to the incorrect railcard.

Ive attached both receipts here which were Advance Single standard, without the trainline booking fee both tickets were £32.80 each. Also timings attached, it would have been the 11:03-12:33 train from Manchester Piccadilly

I’ll take your advice and write to them even if I can get in touch with them on the phone so there’s a paper trail. If not Transport Focus seems to be the way to go! Thank you so much for the advice !

I think it would probably help if you could answer the bullet point questions one by one that hadders has asked - that will help inform precisely what you need to write to ITAL don't waste time ringing them. ITAL are difficult to deal with at the best of times so what you need to put to them must be crystal clear if there is any hope of getting them to drop this IMHO)
EDITED as resolved whilst this was posted

But you certainly have my sympathy.

 

[monad]

LMAOOOOO talk about timing, as I was responding to Haders and furlong I get this email:



I’m still going to double check tomorrow but looks like this matter is closed. Thank you all for your help and assistance, you guys rock!

 

[Hadders]

That's a good result. What are the chances!

I wonder if Charlotte has read this thread.....

 

[WesternLancer]

LMAOOOOO talk about timing, as I was responding to Haders and furlong I get this email:

View attachment 183448

I’m still going to double check tomorrow but looks like this matter is closed. Thank you all for your help and assistance, you guys rock!

Good news - keep copies of everything!

 

[furlong]

I think you should reply again and invite them to refund the original penalty fare, which similarly ought not to have been issued.

You should reference:

Independent review of train operators’ revenue protection practices
A report to the Secretary of State for Transport
Published on 4 June 2025

The box under paragraph 14

A passenger was threatened with prosecution for accidentally selecting a 16-25
railcard discount when they had a 26-30 railcard. Both railcards provide the same
discount. So, although the ticket was technically invalid, there was no difference in
the fare and therefore no net loss to industry. The case was eventually dropped after
their MP became involved.

and invite them to similarly refund what you paid. (Attach the evidence of your ticket and railcard and explain, as you did here, that you presented them and what you were told in response.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2025 ==

Of course if you do have to involve your M.P. (or, as I originally suggested, Transport Focus), one of the questions they might want to delve into is how this erroneous prosecution threat ever occurred. There deserves to be an external investigation into how this penalty came to be "issued incorrectly" leading to this prosecution letter and the tardiness in dealing with your replies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2025 ==

Keep the first request brief, but if they resist, you can follow up by quoting from Recommendation 2. If they've any sense, they'll just refund this one quickly now, rather than risk escalation and more bad press for the industry ignoring the ORR's work. As the document I refer to was published AFTER your particular incident, they do have an easy way to climb down if they choose to take it.

 

[monad]

Just would like to provide an update (i haven’t forgotten you!)

I took @furlong ‘s advice and replied to the customer service. Still yet to shear a response back.

However after this I received shortly, not one but 2 letters about the prosecution. I managed to find a prosecution email and emailed them confirming if they still wanted to go ahead and they have appeared to double down on the matter asking for a out of court settlement for the incorrectly issued penalty fare and if not then to court we go. Ive just asked them to confirm the penalty fare reference because:
1. Penalty fare already paid
2. Other penalty issued by accident

I don’t think they communicate that well between departments so I’m just going to wait it out and see if they realize their mistake. But just to cover my back I’m getting Transport Focus involved.

Anyways until next time

 

[enyoueffsea]

So they are still threatening to prosecute you for the second penalty fare which you have already received acknowledgement has been cancelled and was issued incorrectly in the first place?

WMT with another blinder here.

 

[MotCO]

If you want to be proactive, do you want to send them a copy of their email confirming the penalty fare was issued in error and has been cancelled?

 

[monad]

If you want to be proactive, do you want to send them a copy of their email confirming the penalty fare was issued in error and has been cancelled?

You would think they communicate with each other before letting it get to this stage? Anyways I have already done this, just a waiting game for the response now. I was just getting them to confirm which PF it was for (the issued in error one) before giving them proof.

So they are still threatening to prosecute you for the second penalty fare which you have already received acknowledgement has been cancelled and was issued incorrectly in the first place?

WMT with another blinder here.

Tell me about