Future new-build rolling stock at ScotRail

[D365]

This new thread is set up with the proviso that I haven’t seen an existing speculative discussion.

Below is from the Fife Circle Electrification thread:

The most likely outcome just now is that either newly built or already existing Hitachi Class 385 units could be retrofitted with battery cells. This was actually discussed when they were being manufactured as an idea for future stock once battery technology improved. Second most likely will be Stadtler Flirt trains, as they are tri mode, however that is still not fully carbon free.

Makes sense to be fair now I think about it. Maybe speculating about the new traction is a job for a few months down the line.

Indeed I agree that this is speculation

Hitachi would have the capability to supply both an updated AT200 EMU/BEMU fleet, and an AT300 fleet. These would be based on the same mechanical/electrical architecture for commonality. I don’t see the Class 385s being retrofitted - they will be supplemented by the new fleet.

Stadler could deliver a 100mph BEMU variant of the Class 756. Don’t forget that this is one of the options available to Northern for replacement of the Class 769s.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm hoping Scotrail progresses with their procurement tbh - there is a need for more trains, including many BEMUs.

A fully BEMU FLIRT is certainly possible, and if you don't have a diesel engine anymore, there is more space for extra batteries so battery range would be larger.

I'm sure Siemens, Alstom, CAF, and Hitachi would all also offer products for such a procurement.

I don't see why Scotrail would benefit from an AT300 derivative - there is nowhere that could use their higher speed, so why would you accept the compromises made to enable that higher speed, rather than sticking with an AT200 derivative?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm hoping Scotrail progresses with their procurement tbh - there is a need for more trains, including many BEMUs.

A fully BEMU FLIRT is certainly possible, and if you don't have a diesel engine anymore, there is more space for extra batteries so battery range would be larger.

I'm sure Siemens, Alstom, CAF, and Hitachi would all also offer products for such a procurement.

I don't see why Scotrail would benefit from an AT300 derivative - there is nowhere that could use their higher speed, so why would you accept the compromises made to enable that higher speed, rather than sticking with an AT200 derivative?

There were suggestions previously that the Edinburgh to Berwick-upon-Tweed to Newcastle service would've been ScotRail operated IF they had suitable rolling stock.

I believe it was awarded to TPE because they had suitable 125mph rolling stock and Craigentinny maintains 80x as well, so it worked on that basis too.

If ScotRail had 125mph-capable trains, the Edinburgh to Newcastle semi-fast might go to them and thus only Lockerbie would be unserved by ScotRail within Scotland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why Scotrail would benefit from an AT300 derivative - there is nowhere that could use their higher speed, so why would you accept the compromises made to enable that higher speed, rather than sticking with an AT200 derivative?

The upside of the 80x is that it's a proven design. It has its faults of course but largely works.

An AT200 based tri mode with gangways may have benefits, but would be a new design, and that hasn't gone well with the 810.

 

[Trainbike46]

The upside of the 80x is that it's a proven design. It has its faults of course but largely works.

An AT200 based tri mode with gangways may have benefits, but would be a new design, and that hasn't gone well with the 810.

That is an advantage of that specific design yes, but there would still need to be changes to the design (at least one coach with level boarding, for starters). The 80x is also relatively expensive. If Hitachi does offer an 80x variant, I would suspect that one of the other manufacturers would win instead.

 

[Snow1964]

Prior Invitation Notice Tender issued today (9 July)

approx 41 EMUs, 28 BEMUs (69 units)
includes low floor design
deliveries to commence 2030

1 buyer​

• Scotrail Trains Glasgow

Description​

ScotRail Trains Limited (SRT) Market Engagement Notice SRT is launching a market engagement exercise in relation to its proposed procurement for the replacement of some of its aging Diesel and Electric Multiple Units with a new fleet of Electric Multiple Units (EMUs) and Battery Electric Multiple Units (BEMUs). The proposed procurement is planned for 2025-2027, with initial deliveries expected by late 2031, subject to approval from Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government. It is anticipated that under a Manufacturing and Supply Agreement (MSA) the core order will be for approximately 69 units, potentially comprising around 41 EMUs and 28 BEMUs. There may also be a requirement for additional option orders, although this will be clarified as part of any Contract Notice. Additionally, SRT is seeking to engage the market regarding the support elements for the proposed replacement fleet through a Technical Support and Spares Supply Agreement (TSSSA). It is hoped that the new proposed replacement fleet will offer enhanced accessibility, increased provisions for cycles and wheelchairs, family friendly interior layouts and a comfortable journey achieved through good ride quality and seating. It is anticipated that BEMUs will be introduced alongside partial electrification of key Scottish routes by Network Rail. This market engagement exercise is open to all entities capable of supplying rolling stock and technical support and spares. Interested parties must sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) and will be provided with a market engagement questionnaire once the signed NDA has been returned. Follow-up sessions may occur based on responses.

Total Quantity or Scope​

Notice of Market Engagement by ScotRail Trains Limited (SRT) SRT is announcing an upcoming market engagement in relation to its proposed procurement for the replacement of some of its aging Diesel and Electric Multiple Units. The proposed new fleet will consist of Electric Multiple Units (EMUs) and Battery Electric Multiple Units (BEMUs). It is anticipated that under a Manufacturing and Supply Agreement (MSA) the core order will be for approximately 69 units, consisting of 41 EMUs and 28 BEMUs. There may also be a requirement for additional option orders, which will be confirmed as part of any Contract Notice. Additionally, SRT is looking to engage the market regarding the support elements for the proposed replacement fleet, which is anticipated to be through a Technical Support and Spares Supply Agreement (TSSSA). The procurement process for the MSA and TSSSA is anticipated to occur between 2025 and 2026, with initial unit deliveries expected to begin in late 2030. These timelines are subject to approval from Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government. Additional to replacement of life-expired trains, further benefits are hoped to include a more accessible offering for customers, increased provisions for cycles and wheelchairs, a clear focus on family friendly interior layouts and a comfortable journey achieved through good ride quality and seating. The new trains are anticipated to include a low-floor design to enable level access boarding at external passenger doors where platform conditions meet PRM-NTSN requirements. The introduction of BEMUs is anticipated to coincide with partial electrification of key Scottish routes, which will be undertaken by Network Rail. This market engagement is open to all entities capable of supplying rolling stock, and technical support and spares. Interested entities should self register using the following link: https://scotrail.wax-live.com/S2C/DisplayModules/TradeModules/Negotiations/Oppor... Upon registering, entities will be required to complete and sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) to protect the confidentiality of all commercially sensitive information shared. This agreement will cover communications between you, SRT, Key Stakeholders (Scottish Rail Holdings Limited (SRH), Transport Scotland (TS)), and SRT’s technical advisors (Ove Arup and Partners), who will be managing the market engagement on behalf of SRT. Following the NDA process, participants will receive a market engagement questionnaire for completion. Depending on the responses, there may be opportunities for follow-up sessions, either via Teams or in person.

CPV Codes​

• 34620000 - Rolling stock
• 63711000 - Support services for railway transport
• 50222000 - Repair and maintenance services of rolling stock
• 34300000 - Parts and accessories for vehicles and their engines

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W28/850198847

 

[hux385]

So this is ScotRail putting some feelers out to see what the market can provide?

I assume the 41 EMUs will largely be 318/320 replacements, and the 28 BEMUs will replace some of the 158s? I can't see any info about train lengths or the amount of carriages, but including level boarding is a massive positive.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I'm hoping Scotrail progresses with their procurement tbh - there is a need for more trains, including many BEMUs.

A fully BEMU FLIRT is certainly possible, and if you don't have a diesel engine anymore, there is more space for extra batteries so battery range would be larger.

I'm sure Siemens, Alstom, CAF, and Hitachi would all also offer products for such a procurement.

I don't see why Scotrail would benefit from an AT300 derivative - there is nowhere that could use their higher speed, so why would you accept the compromises made to enable that higher speed, rather than sticking with an AT200 derivative?

Siemens has the Desrio Verve Platform, Alstom has the Adesra Platform which is the replacement for the Aventra platform which Level boarding, CAF does the Civity with level boarding however that is super expensive hence why most TOCs just order the non level boarding version.

AT300s would be an alright replacement for the HSTs as they could have a fleet of 805s which could allow for during electrification line speed upgrades when possible up to 110-125mph.

 

[hexagon789]

So this is ScotRail putting some feelers out to see what the market can provide?

I assume the 41 EMUs will largely be 318/320 replacements, and the 28 BEMUs will replace some of the 158s? I can't see any info about train lengths or the amount of carriages, but including level boarding is a massive positive.

I'd have thought replacing some 156s, such as Anniesland and possibly Kilmarnock or even Kilmarnock/Ayr.

 

[hux385]

I'd have thought replacing some 156s, such as Anniesland and possibly Kilmarnock or even Kilmarnock/Ayr.

That would make sense to get rid of the 156s first as they are older and significantly more tatty (and more polluting I assume?). Would a BEMU make it from Barrhead to Kilmarnock and back without running out of charge?

 

[BerkshireRails]

So this is ScotRail putting some feelers out to see what the market can provide?

I assume the 41 EMUs will largely be 318/320 replacements, and the 28 BEMUs will replace some of the 158s? I can't see any info about train lengths or the amount of carriages, but including level boarding is a massive positive.

Considering the 158s are better for the passenger than the 156s, I would say the BEMUs are replacing the 156s. It might be the 158s get replaced by BEMUs which are then cascaded to West Highland Line and Strainer. Also what would the turbostars do.

 

[hexagon789]

That would make sense to get rid of the 156s first as they are older and significantly more tatty (and more polluting I assume?). Would a BEMU make it from Barrhead to Kilmarnock and back without running out of charge?

It's 16.75mi Barrhead to Kilmarnock, so a round trip should be well within the typical 50-70mi range of battery operation I think.

 

[Snow1964]

I assume the 41 EMUs will largely be 318/320 replacements, and the 28 BEMUs will replace some of the 158s? I can't see any info about train lengths or the amount of carriages, but including level boarding is a massive positive.

There are 53 units of 318, 320 if you include the former 321s

So more likely replacing these and the 156s, although without knowing the number of vehicles in each proposed set, can't be sure.

Of course it might not be discrete vehicles with 2 bogies each, could be shared bogies within sets and shorter vehicles in articulated configuration like some Alstom Coradia stream format.

 

[hux385]

There are 53 units of 318, 320 if you include the former 321s

So more likely replacing these and the 156s, although without knowing the number of vehicles in each proposed set, can't be sure.

But if they are 5x24m carriage EMUs then that is the same as a 6-car 318/320, in which case you would only need half the number of new EMUs to replace the old sets. I'm sure the sums will add up in some way, especially as carriage lengths might need to be shorter to facilitate level boarding (unsure?).

 

[Snow1964]

Siemens has the Desrio Verve Platform, Alstom has the Adesra Platform which is the replacement for the Aventra platform which Level boarding, CAF does the Civity with level boarding however that is super expensive hence why most TOCs just order the non level boarding version.

There are wild cards out there too, guessing approximately 200-220 vehicles, rather than 500+ so could be handled by one of the smaller train builders :
Stadler
Skoda
Hyundai Rotem
and can't rule out Chinese having a look either

 

[tfw756rider]

That would make sense to get rid of the 156s first as they are older and significantly more tatty (and more polluting I assume?). Would a BEMU make it from Barrhead to Kilmarnock and back without running out of charge?

I highly doubt the 156s are any more polluting than the 158s; if anything it may well be the other way round. ScotRail's 158s are all the Cummins version, so have the same basic 14-litre Cummins engines as the 156s, but with fancier turbo setups and higher power ratings (surely that means they actually pollute more?)

 

[Transilien]

An EMU that was specialised to Glasgow Inner-Suburban operations would be good. Level boarding and a high capacity layout much like the class 777 or 701 would be good for improving North Clyde, Argyle and Cathcart Circle routes which have been neglected since basically the 1980s.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I'm not sure if it's connected but a ScotRail delegation was visiting TFW depots in the Cardiff area last week.

 

[tfw756rider]

I'm not sure if it's connected but a ScotRail delegation was visiting TFW depots in the Cardiff area last week.

Could well be, maybe they want some 756s

 

[BerkshireRails]

Could well be, maybe they want some 756s

The 756s might be a bit slow for Scotrail considering all of there EMU fleet can do at least 90mph and the 756s can only do 65mph.

 

[Trainbike46]

The 756s might be a bit slow for Scotrail considering all of there EMU fleet can do at least 90mph and the 756s can only do 65mph.

Of course, the 756 is very similar to the 755, just some diesel engines replaced with batteries and a different interior.

And the 755 is a 100 mph design, so a 100 mph FLIRT BEMU is certainly feasible.

 

[stevieinselby]

I don’t see the Class 385s being retrofitted - they will be supplemented by the new fleet.

Agreed that there would be no point in retrofitting the 385s when they still have a need for the full fleet of 385s to run the services they are currently running. If they retrofitted batteries or generators to them and pulled them off onto partially or wholly unelectrified routes, they would then need to get new EMUs to replace them, which would completely defeat the point of the process.

I assume the 41 EMUs will largely be 318/320 replacements, and the 28 BEMUs will replace some of the 158s?

The EMUs will also include replacements for the 156s running on East Kilbride services and to strengthen the fleet after Barrhead switched to EMUs.

The BEMUs will probably cascade vehicles rather than necessarily being a direct replacement for end-of-life vehicles – the most likely routes for them to be used on are the Borders and Fife lines, where they will be displacing a mix of mostly 170s and some 158s. If delivery isn't expected until 2031/32 then that could be pushing the 158s towards end-of-life, and could be pushing the 156s well past end-of-life if they are relying on cascaded vehicles released by the new BEMUs to replace them.

 

[Trainbike46]

Agreed that there would be no point in retrofitting the 385s when they still have a need for the full fleet of 385s to run the services they are currently running. If they retrofitted batteries or generators to them and pulled them off onto partially or wholly unelectrified routes, they would then need to get new EMUs to replace them, which would completely defeat the point of the process.

The EMUs will also include replacements for the 156s running on East Kilbride services and to strengthen the fleet after Barrhead switched to EMUs.

The BEMUs will probably cascade vehicles rather than necessarily being a direct replacement for end-of-life vehicles – the most likely routes for them to be used on are the Borders and Fife lines, where they will be displacing a mix of mostly 170s and some 158s. If delivery isn't expected until 2031/32 then that could be pushing the 158s towards end-of-life, and could be pushing the 156s well past end-of-life if they are relying on cascaded vehicles released by the new BEMUs to replace them.

Some of the remaining diesel routes in Glasgow would be BEMU candidates as well - the extension beyond Barrhead, for example.

 

[hexagon789]

Some of the remaining diesel routes in Glasgow would be BEMU candidates as well - the extension beyond Barrhead, for example.

Maryhill line would seem another ripe candidate (Queen Street HL to Anniesland), must be barely 4 miles unelectrified, but ISTR a tunnel under the canal precludes easy electrification hence it's still diesel worked.

 

[SC318250]

So at least 6 years for 318/320 replacement. 320 will need a C6/TBox within 2 years woyld have thought and the Class 318 2 years later… so will the 320 be stood down before the 318?

 

[positron]

The 756s might be a bit slow for Scotrail considering all of there EMU fleet can do at least 90mph and the 756s can only do 65mph.

That's purely down to gearing, the 231s can do 90mph for example and they're basically the same train (no panto attached yet and the batteries replaced with diesel engines).

Flirts as a platform are the safe bet if they want level boarding and seem quite versatile so I'm sure they could get a design that worked for them. Everything else would be new and inevitably have teething issues.

 

[Snow1964]

Unless they are looking at 5 or 6car trains (which is a possibility) it doesn't look like they are replacing all the oldest trains (and I am assuming HSTs are separate replacement by 222s etc)

The 318s date from 1985-86 (so in 2030 will be 44-45 years old)
The 156s date from 1987-89 (so in 2030 will be 41-43 years old)
The 320s (& ex 321) date from 1989-91(so in 2030 39-41 years old)
The 158s date from 1989-90 (so in 2030 will be 40-41 years old)

So in total 320-330 vehicles

Then there is decade age gap, with the 334s and 170s, where there are another 220 vehicles, although if 222s join would be about 350 vehicles at 40 years old around year 2040

 

[Falcon1200]

It's 16.75mi Barrhead to Kilmarnock, so a round trip should be well within the typical 50-70mi range of battery operation I think.

If the Kilmarnock terminators were extended to Ayr they could recharge between Barassie Junction and Ayr! (and then continue to Girvan and back?)

 

[SC318250]

I take it the Class 334 are not being replaced at this stage?

Makes you wonder why not? With the length of time 334004 has been at Wolverton for welding works (coming up for a year) it must be costing a fortune. Not sure how bad the corrosion has been

 

[Alfie1014]

Alstom has an almost UK gauge level floor MU family entering service in Dublin as Dart+ https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-fleet testing is underway.