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Off peak tickets where there are no full price trains

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a_c_skinner

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Arnside to Penrith as an example but I've found others. Off peak return is any train to depart after 0415. Which is all of them. Why sell anytime returns when the off peak is valid for all trains?
 
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jfollows

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You might want to stay overnight in Lancaster on the outbound leg. Theoretically I can invent a use case.
 

NorthOxonian

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There are some even less restricted off peak fares - Holyhead to Cardiff is the first example which springs to mind but Arnside to Oxenholme is actually much the same. In both cases the only restriction imposed by the off peak ticket is that you are unable to break your journey on the outward leg.

Surprisingly, this doesn't even seem to be the case for Arnside to Penrith (or indeed other destinations, for instance Glasgow). The most immediate difference is that an anytime ticket offers five days of outward validity whereas an off peak ticket offers less. There may be others (for instance, certain railcards have conditions relating to when off peak tickets are valid - perhaps that could apply here)?
 

Watershed

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The only real reason for the existence of the Anytime Return, apart from the increased validity of the outward portion, is to provide an effective 'penalty' that can be levied for onboard purchases (where ticketing facilities were available at the starting station).
 

Haywain

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Some discounts, such as those for wheelchair users without railcards, only apply to Anytime tickets so may represent better value than undiscounted Off-Peak tickets.
 
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Belperpete

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There are some even less restricted off peak fares - Holyhead to Cardiff is the first example which springs to mind but Arnside to Oxenholme is actually much the same. In both cases the only restriction imposed by the off peak ticket is that you are unable to break your journey on the outward leg.
According to National Rail, restriction 8A "Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities." appears to apply to both outward and return legs.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/8a/

BRfares seems ambiguous. Under the ticket validity, this restriction is shown against the outward journey only, but then under restriction 8A it appears to apply to both outward and return legs.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=HHD&dest=CDF&rte=1000&tkt=SVR
 

NorthOxonian

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According to National Rail, restriction 8A "Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities." appears to apply to both outward and return legs.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/8a/

BRfares seems ambiguous. Under the ticket validity, this restriction is shown against the outward journey only, but then under restriction 8A it appears to apply to both outward and return legs.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=HHD&dest=CDF&rte=1000&tkt=SVR
Well spotted - I'd looked at the validity section in BRFares but hadn't read through the text further on. It hadn't occured to me there'd be this sort of inconsistency.

I do believe there are some off peak restrictions which have different break of journey rules between outward and return, though clearly not this one.
 

yorkie

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Arnside to Penrith as an example but I've found others. Off peak return is any train to depart after 0415. Which is all of them. Why sell anytime returns when the off peak is valid for all trains?
The Anytime Return is the "full" fare charged on board, where the ticket office was open and the passenger chose not to use it.

The outward journey can be broken and resumed within a period of 5 days, which is far more generous than an Off Peak Return, which in this particular case can't be broken at all.
 

a_c_skinner

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Thanks. I'd not found the no break condition (where is it?). Mind you Lancaster is an open station and who wants to stop off in Oxenholme?

Levity aside I'd not thought of the full fare being needed for "penalty" purposes.
 

furlong

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The Anytime Return is the "full" fare charged on board, where the ticket office was open and the passenger chose not to use it.

A careful reading of the current NRCoT shows it no longer appears to provide any authority to charge this. (The wording got downgraded to a mere assertion that some unreferenced law may permit this to happen, but what law is that?)
(Is it a lawyerly trick to encourage existing practice to continue for as long as the industry can get away with it, while accepting that it might nowadays be deemed an unenforceable penalty clause?)
 

Watershed

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Thanks. I'd not found the no break condition (where is it?). Mind you Lancaster is an open station and who wants to stop off in Oxenholme?

Levity aside I'd not thought of the full fare being needed for "penalty" purposes.
It's in the text of restriction code 8A.

In practical terms I doubt any guards are going to know about this even being a rule since it's otherwise so rare for tickets around the north/northwest.
 

janb

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Arnside to Penrith as an example but I've found others. Off peak return is any train to depart after 0415. Which is all of them. Why sell anytime returns when the off peak is valid for all trains?

The outward journey can be broken and resumed within a period of 5 days, which is far more generous than an Off Peak Return, which in this particular case can't be broken at all.

Thanks. I'd not found the no break condition (where is it?). Mind you Lancaster is an open station and who wants to stop off in Oxenholme?

Levity aside I'd not thought of the full fare being needed for "penalty" purposes.

It's in the text of restriction code 8A.

Arnside to Penrith is 2T not 8A.
 

janb

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Arnside to Penrith yes, as that's set by Avanti. But Arnside to Oxenholme is 8A as it's a former TPE-set fare that Northern took over when they took control of the Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere services.

Indeed but the series of quotes I laid out in my post I hoped better painted a picture (perhaps too subtly) of the conversational flow of Arnside to Penrith, hence the surprise of the OP at the claim there was a BoJ restriction when there isn't.
 

Watershed

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Indeed but the series of quotes I laid out in my post I hoped better painted a picture (perhaps too subtly) of the conversational flow of Arnside to Penrith, hence the surprise of the OP at the claim there was a BoJ restriction when there isn't.
There was also a mention of Oxenholme, which is where the reference to the BoJ restriction came from.
 

a_c_skinner

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Can I say thanks to everyone, the real use of full fare returns seems for passengers not complying with the rules. I'd not thought of that.

All of this does make the point of how complex the fare structure is and ripe for simplification. We should all be glad that such a Herculean task is someone else's!

I do like the Via Lancaster admonition, though via Carlisle would be, ahem, a little crazy.
 

Hadders

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Can I say thanks to everyone, the real use of full fare returns seems for passengers not complying with the rules. I'd not thought of that.

All of this does make the point of how complex the fare structure is and ripe for simplification. We should all be glad that such a Herculean task is someone else's!

I do like the Via Lancaster admonition, though via Carlisle would be, ahem, a little crazy.
Simplification is likely to result in something like a not before 09:30 restriction on the off peak return so I'd be very careful what you wish for....
 

Belperpete

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Simplification is likely to result in something like a not before 09:30 restriction on the off peak return so I'd be very careful what you wish for....
It depends on whose version of simplification you are talking about. TfW version where the off peak is valid all day, and advances can be bought up to time of travel, I can support. LNER version I am totally opposed to.
 

Hadders

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TfW version where the off peak is valid all day, and advances can be bought up to time of travel
There is absolutely no way simplification is going to result in off-peak tickets being valid all day.
 

Hadders

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It has already resulted in that, in much of Wales at least.
It hasn't. That's a legacy going back to BR days. Simplification is likely to result in one 'simple' restriction like 09:30 across the whole network, possibly with afternoon restriction as well.

Do I want that - no! But DfT/RDG/TOCs/GBR want to raise revenue and reduce the subsidy given to the railway.

As I've said, be careful what you wish for....
 
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