Southampton Ctl to Worthing 'ANY PERMITTED'

[Drsatan]

Hello everyone.


In the next couple of weeks I'll need to travel to London. I've heard a rumour that an anytime day return from Southampton Ctl to Worthing with a Young Person's card(£14.25) is valid via Clapham Junction, where I'd get off and buy an SDR to Waterloo (£3.10) which is a lot cheaper than buying the equivalent fare from Southampton Ctl to London Waterloo (£45.00)

Now, I've looked at the routing points for Worthing using the 'pink pages' of the routing guide, which are Ford and Brighton. However, there's no routing point for Southampton Central, which is part of the 'Southampton Group' of routing points. I find this very confusing since the Routing Guide doesn't adequately explain how to apply the fare check rule when travelling from a station which is its own routing point.

Therefore, I'd be very grateful if someone could show me how to use the fare check rule from such a station, which would help me work out whether the 'ANY PERMITTED' allowance is just that i.e. it allows travel to Clapham Junction.


Thanks in advance.

 

[island]

The fares check rule is only used to determine, given a station, whether the routeing point you choose is appropriate. A station that is a routeing point or member of a group doesn't need a fares check for that end of the journey.

Worthing's routeing points are Brighton Group and Ford Group. Comparing CDS fares, Southampton to Worthing is £14.90 and Southampton to Ford is £13.50, so this is an appropriate routeing point. Southampton to Brighton is £14.90 route BARNHAM and much more route NOT LONDON or ANY PERMITTED. Since this journey proposes not to go via Barnham, Brighton will not be an appropriate routeing point.

From Southampton Group to Ford Group your only route option is CW, which is the sensible way across the south coast via Havant. As such, the journey the OP proposes is invalid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An anytime day return route SOUTHERN ONLY from Southampton Ctl to London Terminals is £29.85 with a railcard if that's any help, and Southern does do advances from £3.30. You may not need an anytime ticket depending on when you travel.

 

[dzug2]

An anytime day return from Southampton to Brighton route not London would appear to be valid via Clapham Junction though. £16.65 with railcard

 

[class377man]

Indeed it is the Brighton ticket that is valid. This a fairly well known trick I believe.

 

[island]

An anytime day return from Southampton to Brighton route not London would appear to be valid via Clapham Junction though. £16.65 with railcard

Yes it is.

 

[LexyBoy]

One wonders for how long though...

Also, no need to get off at CLJ, just buy the CLJ-WAT ticket at Southampton.

 

[wintonian]

One wonders for how long though...

Also, no need to get off at CLJ, just buy the CLJ-WAT ticket at Southampton.

Some might suggest that this is why there aren’t any peak call at Clapham Junction meaning changes at Woking and Surbiton are needed adding an hour to the journey time.

 

[Drsatan]

An anytime day return from Southampton to Brighton route not London would appear to be valid via Clapham Junction though. £16.65 with railcard

Ok, thanks for correcting me!

 

[yorkie]

One wonders for how long though...

It's been well documented, even making mass media. Many people know about it. It's not considered a bizarre and ridiculous route like the ones that get revealed on here (which ATOC then remove). They can't prevent via Clapham being a permitted route, and they can't make Clapham part of London. But what they could potentially do is re-route the ticket, however some people have said for the last 4 years that they are going to do this, yet it never happens. I believe the routeing may well be 'protected'. I suspect the DfT may have to approve the removal of this option.

If there is any hint that they are going to remove it, I suggest anyone who lives in one of the areas affected considers writing to their MP (I am willing to assist with proof reading). I am, however, unaware of any such move at present.

 

[thefab444]

Some might suggest that this is why there aren’t any peak call at Clapham Junction meaning changes at Woking and Surbiton are needed adding an hour to the journey time.

I think the main reason for the lack stops is the pathing issues it creates, especially heading towards London. The extra +LONDON revenue is just an added bonus (for SWT).

 

[embers25]

Off peak SWT could easily also stop more inbound at Clapham instead of queuing trains between Vauxhall and Waterloo without any time penalty but they are too greedy revenue wise. Also the time penalty for stopping given the very low thru line speed is not much again calling into question the lack of paths argument.

 

[wintonian]

I think the main reason for the lack stops is the pathing issues it creates, especially heading towards London. The extra +LONDON revenue is just an added bonus (for SWT).

I agree that is a very real and valid issue.

I am however rather unsure whether SWT are 'flying a flag of convenience', or not.

 

[thefab444]

Off peak SWT could easily also stop more inbound at Clapham instead of queuing trains between Vauxhall and Waterloo without any time penalty but they are too greedy revenue wise. Also the time penalty for stopping given the very low thru line speed is not much again calling into question the lack of paths argument.

Southbound, a Clapham Junction call adds about two minutes to the timing, the speed limit quickly increases from 50mph to 75mph after passing the station. Northbound it is more like three minutes as trains have to slow down for the approach controlled access to platform 7, whereas the through line speed is 40mph.

However, what you say about off-peak timings is very true, many trains have adequate time for a Clapham stop notably the xx09, xx23, xx42 and xx50 departures from Waterloo.

 

[paul1609]

It's been well documented, even making mass media. Many people know about it. It's not considered a bizarre and ridiculous route like the ones that get revealed on here (which ATOC then remove). They can't prevent via Clapham being a permitted route, and they can't make Clapham part of London. But what they could potentially do is re-route the ticket, however some people have said for the last 4 years that they are going to do this, yet it never happens. I believe the routeing may well be 'protected'. I suspect the DfT may have to approve the removal of this option.

If there is any hint that they are going to remove it, I suggest anyone who lives in one of the areas affected considers writing to their MP (I am willing to assist with proof reading). I am, however, unaware of any such move at present.

The Southampton Central to Brighton not London ticket is a classic case of ticketing not keeping up with the current service patterns.
Apart from a few extreme off peak sce1narios theres no way that any normal would choose a longer route via Clapham Junction with usually 2 changes over a faster hourly direct service via Barnham with a one same platform change on the other half hour. .

Southern recognised this a few years ago when the new west coastway was introduced by introducing a route Barnham ticket.
With this level of service the ORCAT distribution was such that Southern receive nearly all the revenue from the Not London ticket a flow which they own.
SWT own the London ticket which is the protected route. Obviously the use of the not london ticket on SWT doesnt greatly affect Southern.
Im sure that SWT would love for the ticket to be removed but I understand that Southern under the terms of their franchise are obliged to object to any other operators proposals which cause revenue extraction.

They are also in dispute with network Rail about paths for the Brighton service to go via Southampton Airport which is a franchise obligation.

I reckon this one could run for years!

 

[John @ home]

SWT own the London ticket which is the protected route.

Thanks. This is interesting, paul1609.

I'm familiar with the the concept of a protected fare. But can you point me to any document which indicates that, if appropriate fares of the appropriate type between two stations by two different routes existed on the relevant date, then only one of them can be the protected fare between those two stations?

I would have expected that fares by both routes would be protected.

 

[paul1609]

Thanks. This is interesting, paul1609.

I'm familiar with the the concept of a protected fare. But can you point me to any document which indicates that, if appropriate fares of the appropriate type between two stations by two different routes existed on the relevant date, then only one of them can be the protected fare between those two stations?

I would have expected that fares by both routes would be protected.

Im not saying that the Not London ticket isnt protected but it is a fact that many routes in SWT land have been ammended since privatisation.
Portsmouth Area tickets to the north used to be any permitted but became + London wiping out dual availability on xc services via Reading, Tickets from Southern stations on the west coastway are still any permitted allowing travel via Southampton Central.There are many other examples.

 

[embers25]

There is not that big a difference between the direct service and the one via Clapham for much of the day despite the earlier post.

For example this applies hourly:

Brighton 1119
Clapham 1202
Clapham 1212
Soton 1322

vs

Brighton 1133
Soton 1319

Also the Clapham route is usually more likely to be on time and Wessie+444 is by far preferable to a 377. Also the slow crawl along the coast is very very boring compared to speeding up to Clapham and back down.

 

[paul1609]

In that direction its 20 mins longer with a change of train, in the other its 45 mins longer with a 30 mins wait at Clapham Junction.
I stand by my statement that most normals will take the direct service.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, most people will go by the quickest route (ATOC deny this, claiming they wish to take the shortest... hmm, we'll agree to disagree there) however that does not mean we should be forced to. Also, if I just missed the direct train I'd be heading to Clapham as there are regular trains, booked connections may stand for nothing when you have delays and there is always the possibility of making tight connections. If you miss a direct train then going via Clapham seems sensible.

York to Sheffield wouldn't be done via Huddersfield very often, but it is valid and certainly should be, after all you may have a relative there and want to visit en-route.

 

[Drsatan]

In that direction its 20 mins longer with a change of train, in the other its 45 mins longer with a 30 mins wait at Clapham Junction.
I stand by my statement that most normals will take the direct service.

That's true because most 'normals' will assume a Brighton - Southampton ticket is only valid via the most direct route (in this case, via Barnham) and not valid via any other route, even if the ticket is marked 'NOT LONDON'.

Since I'll need to travel to London on Thursday, I'll purchase a Southampton Central - Brighton Anytime Day Return (route: NOT LONDON) and an anytime day return from Clapham Junction to London Waterloo.

However, I'm slightly worried about what the guard on the train will say when he sees such a ticket. Assuming the guard doesn't believe anything I say about travelling via Clapham being a permitted route in the ATOC Routeing Guide, and he tries to sell me an anytime day return from Southampton Central to London Waterloo, and I refuse, what are my courses of action?

I'm assuming I can ask for an UPFN if he's not budging, but what if he says he'll ask BTP to wait for the train at the next stop? I'm assuming there's a difference between deliberately refusing to pay and refusing to pay because the guard is attempting to sell you the wrong ticket.

 

[island]

You can ask the guard to look up the Routeing Guide or call control to verify it. And if it's an authorised collector you'll be looking at a penalty fare rather than a UPFN.

Do make sure the train you're on calls at Clapham Junction of course, otherwise you're genuinely into penalty fare territory.

 

[yorkie]

You cannot be issued a PF for being off-route! So the worse they can do is ask for HALF the difference between the fare paid and, the appropriate (ie, in this case, Off Peak) Any Permitted fare, with Railcard discount. Which is incorrect so you can obtain an unpaid fare notice and appeal.

You cannot be expected to carry any spare cash around just in case the guard makes up his/her own version of the Routeing Guide, so do not feel the need to be intimidated/bullied into paying anything.

In fact I don't think I'd even accept an unpaid fare notice, I'd say "call BTP if you want" if they threatened that, I'd ask the guard to look up the Routeing Guide. And if he has not heard of it, I would ask him what the Conditions of Carriage says about "the route you can take"!

 

[paul1609]

Yes, most people will go by the quickest route (ATOC deny this, claiming they wish to take the shortest... hmm, we'll agree to disagree there) however that does not mean we should be forced to. Also, if I just missed the direct train I'd be heading to Clapham as there are regular trains, booked connections may stand for nothing when you have delays and there is always the possibility of making tight connections. If you miss a direct train then going via Clapham seems sensible.

York to Sheffield wouldn't be done via Huddersfield very often, but it is valid and certainly should be, after all you may have a relative there and want to visit en-route.

In the Brighton to Southampton or vice versa case it actaually doesnt make sense since in 30 mins there will be a quicker service with one same platform change at Barnham. Clapham Junction only has 1 direct fast train to Southampton (via Woking) per hour (there is a stopper but this takes 1 hr 30 and arrives just in front of the next fast),