Mishandled Penalty Fare

[RPI]

As others have pointed out, the ticket has to be available for inspection at all times during your journey, unfortunately, one of the most common excuses I encounter these days when asking for a ticket is "my phone's broken mate", unfortunately it appears that the op is a genuine case, but it's important to add some context as to why the PF may have been issued.

I'd certainly go to a third appeal and hope for the best, if you fail at that hurdle then the best bet would be to pay at the reduced rate and then maybe contact EMR and appeal to the better nature of their customer service team to see if you can get any form of goodwill gesture from them, if you get to this stage though I'd certainly just take a deep breath, bite your tongue and do a bit of grovelling explaining the whole situation.

 

[Beaver42]

So much confusion!

Firstly, did you post the whole notice or is there a bit missing? There MUST be a sentence saying you are entitled to a receipt if you pay. If that's missing, the regulations require an appeal to succeed.

Secondly, did you ASK for the penalty to be issued all the way to Leicester? By default it MUST be issued to the next station unless YOU request otherwise and the inspector agrees to such a request. Again, mandatory grounds for an appeal to succeed (though can be hard to explain).

Thirdly, you MUST explain in your appeal - right at the start - what you were told at the time, namely that if you produced the ticket the PF would be cancelled. The company (through the inspector) was not required to make you that offer but you can certainly expect to hold it to it (and it seems firmly in line with what parliament appears to have intended). It can be argued that this offer should be handled outside the appeals system and so, while you might naturally rely on the appeals system in the first instance, if all three appeals fail, you should write to the company directly about this, and if need be seek the assistance of Transport Focus. (You can also reference the analogy of a lost ticket mentioned originally in parliament: your case is more clear cut as your lost ticket was subsequently found.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==


1) Yes, sometimes via formal appeal, sometimes via contact with the company.
2) Debatable. (I'd argue not.)
3) Unlikely. Transport Focus is a better bet.

The underlying key point is that nobody can have intended that the train company be paid TWICE over for a journey IF it can be proved with reasonable certainty that this is the case.

Hey, that is indeed the complete penalty fare, the part omitted are my personal details.

I did not ask for the Penalty to be issued all the way to Leicester, it was never discussed for it to be issued to the next station nor was it requested, by the ticket inspector.

I will definitetly explain in the appeal what I was told at the time, and will write to the company directly should all three appeals fail, thank you that is helpful!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

The notice appears compliant, assuming it was issued on the 1402 departure from St Pancras, first stop Leicester.

Therefore you'll have to rely on "compelling reasons" as I see no reason that it does not comply with the Regulations.

The first stop was not Leicester.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The first stop was not Leicester.

Sorry if I’ve missed it in an earlier post, but what train were you on?

 

[Beaver42]

Sorry if I’ve missed it in an earlier post, but what train were you on?

The EMR train from St Pancras to Nottingham, my scheduled destination was Leicester, however, the PF was issued 10-15 minutes shortly after departing from St Pancras, whereby the next stops included Kettering and Market Harborough.

 

[WesternLancer]

The EMR train from St Pancras to Nottingham, my scheduled destination was Leicester, however, the PF was issued 10-15 minutes shortly after departing from St Pancras, whereby the next stops included Kettering and Market Harborough.

What train means what was the scheduled departure time of the train from St Pancras I suspect.

 

[Beaver42]

What train means what was the scheduled departure time of the train from St Pancras I suspect.

14:05 train (25/06/25)

 

[saismee]

As others have pointed out, the ticket has to be available for inspection at all times during your journey, unfortunately, one of the most common excuses I encounter these days when asking for a ticket is "my phone's broken mate", unfortunately it appears that the op is a genuine case, but it's important to add some context as to why the PF may have been issued.

And people are unfortunately insistent on "my phone has died" to the point of fake crying! It's very difficult to tell an honest person and a fare evader apart because most evaders have no morals. We once had a lady come to the gates asking to be let through because her phone had died. We told her no and she started crying and saying that she needed to pick up her kid and X, Y and Z. Told her to go to the ticket office as they may have a charger she can use. What did she do? She went outside (direction of ticket office) and smoked for 30 minutes before coming back in and playing it up again. Some people ruin trust for everyone.

I wonder if paying the penalty fare and seeking some kind of reimbursement would amount to anything. Is the TOC going to argue that OP used both the penalty fare and their "invalid" ticket for the same journey?

I still think this would be the best idea if the third appeal fails - paying immediately allows you to get the reduced penalty and prevents any escalation. I don't think scanning a ticket at a gate could be considered using the ticket, as someone may decide to leave and come back at another time.

Given the phone appears to be at fault here, I'm surprised no-one has suggested complaining to the phone manufacturer.

Possibly the retailer too if it was their app that froze?

 

[OneOfThe48]

Secondly, did you ASK for the penalty to be issued all the way to Leicester? By default it MUST be issued to the next station unless YOU request otherwise and the inspector agrees to such a request. Again, mandatory grounds for an appeal to succeed (though can be hard to explain).

Why would they have to ask for it to be issued all the way to Leicester? Regulations say it would authorise them to travel to a station the train calls at that the customer specifies (if the inspector considers it 'reasonable'), or the next station if not.

I suspect the conversation was 'What station are you travelling to today?' 'I'm travelling to Leicester'. Not Kettering.

 

[Starmill]

By default it MUST be issued to the next station unless YOU request otherwise and the inspector agrees to such a request.

Perhaps OP can clarify if Leicester was the next stop the train was making when they were asked for a ticket.

EDIT: actually post 64 appears to answer this. If that's the case I suggest a second line appeal be made on this ground.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

I suspect the conversation was 'What station are you travelling to today?' 'I'm travelling to Leicester'. Not Kettering.

I'd have thought it would be fairly obvious as to why this doesn't fall into the circumstances you point out in the first part of your post.

The customer is entitled to purchase a new ticket at the correct price for the part of their journey after the next station to their destination, and further subsequent travel, if they wish to, without being charged for that under the Penalty Fare rules.

 

[phoenix743]

You failed to show a valid ticket when asked so correctly a PFN was issued. You appeal may not succeed as how do the company know you were travelling alone ? You may have been travelling with others and the ticket you send in may belong to a friend or family member. That’s why PFN are issued for genuine mistakes or mishaps as this was.

 

[John R]

Had the OP been offered a PF to Kettering and then purchased a ticket from Kettering to Leicester it would have been slightly cheaper for them.

London to Leicester: 78.50
London to Kettering: 60.50
Kettering to Leicester:17.40

So they were denied the opportunity to save 60p. Not much, but enough to demonstrate that charging a PF to Leicester was not in the OP's interest as the cheapest way for them to complete their journey.

Edited to add "not" having missed the crucial word! Apologies.

 

[transportphoto]

I fear the much simpler outcome here would have been for the OP to have been reported for prosecution.

The strict liability offence contrary Railway Byelaw 18(2) would be complete. The OP would be guilty of the criminal offence; mitigation would be heard for the decision of sentencing.

 

[Foxcover]

To the OP - do be aware that the discount clock starts ticking again once each appeal is rejected, and only stops again when you submit the next stage. If you’re taking advice, eg here, a few days between rejection and submission can quickly eat up the discount period. I nearly got caught out by this helping a friend on a Merseyrail penalty fare appeal that went to three stages.

 

[Starmill]

Had the OP been offered a PF to Kettering and then purchased a ticket from Kettering to Leicester it would have been slightly cheaper for them.

London to Leicester: 78.50
London to Kettering: 60.50
Kettering to Leicester:17.40

So they were denied the opportunity to save 60p. Not much, but enough to demonstrate that charging a PF to Leicester was in the OP's interest as the cheapest way for them to complete their journey.

Yes the rules are fairly clear it's not permitted to vary the destination from whatever the next stop is if it's not wanted by the customer. It would be difficult to make a case that the OP said they wanted that here...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

To the OP - do be aware that the discount clock starts ticking again once each appeal is rejected, and only stops again when you submit the next stage. If you’re taking advice, eg here, a few days between rejection and submission can quickly eat up the discount period. I nearly got caught out by this helping a friend on a Merseyrail penalty fare appeal that went to three stages.

Hopefully it was negated by the third appeal being successful in that case!

It's also sometimes a good option to pay the Penalty Fare in advance. This doesn't have any effect on the appeals process. At least the penalty value from a PF is returned if an appeal is subsequently allowed.

 

[furlong]

So read the amended regulations yourself.
Look at 5(2) for the receipt.
5(5A) for the 'next station'. You did not specify that you would like it to be considered issuing the penalty to a further station, and indeed it would have been against your interests to have done so so the inspector would have been wrong to tell you of the option, and so it had to be issued to the next station,
Accordingly it was not issued in accordance with the regulations - 16(3)(a) under 18(2)(b) for a final appeal with 18(4). Throw in 16(3)(d) to cover the statement from the company that if you produced the ticket later the PF wouldn't be enforced, throwing in the argument that it can't have been intended to charge twice over where subsequent proof is provided (and it was always envisaged appeals were the right way to cover these situations).

Other quick points - discussion of offences isn't relevant to the situation at present; and nobody is arguing a PF shouldn't have been issued (unless you take the line of argument that the signage doesn't comply).

 

[Idiotic]

If the penalty fare is successfully appealed. Would the outstanding fare still be owed as they still weren’t able to show a valid ticket on demand?

 

[Beaver42]

If the penalty fare is successfully appealed. Would the outstanding fare still be owed as they still weren’t able to show a valid ticket on demand?

No because I paid for a valid ticket and was not offered to pay for a new one whilst on board

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, the 14.02 ex St Pancras is a Sheffield, first stop Leicester. The 14.05 ex St Pancras calls at Kettering, Market Harborough then Leicester. It gets fun if trains that close together are from the same platform.....even more so if they board at the same time. As you look down the platform, it looks like a 10 coach train....but they are not coupled.

 

[saismee]

If the penalty fare is successfully appealed. Would the outstanding fare still be owed as they still weren’t able to show a valid ticket on demand?

The outstanding fare is included in the price of the penalty fare (Ticket Price + Penalty).
Edit: Fully misread that message. Could've sworn it said "If the penalty fare is paid"!

 

[transportphoto]

Other quick points - discussion of offences isn't relevant to the situation at present; and nobody is arguing a PF shouldn't have been issued (unless you take the line of argument that the signage doesn't comply).

Absolutely agreed - there is however a need for the OP to realise that the actus reus of a strict liability criminal offence was there. They therefore need to take some ownership of the situation rather than blaming the railway. We can support with points of appeal for the penalty fare; you’ve suggested a couple.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the penalty fare is successfully appealed. Would the outstanding fare still be owed as they still weren’t able to show a valid ticket on demand?

Usually, yes, although the circumstances of this case are slightly unusual.

discussion of offences isn't relevant to the situation at present

Although the OP should bear the offences in mind should his third appeal be declined. If he doesn’t cough up he could be prosecuted.

 

[Beaver42]

Absolutely agreed - there is however a need for the OP to realise that the actus reus of a strict liability criminal offence was there. They therefore need to take some ownership of the situation rather than blaming the railway. We can support with points of appeal for the penalty fare; you’ve suggested a couple.

Yes please that would be incredibly
helpful

 

[transportphoto]

Yes please that would be incredibly
helpful

See the points in @furlong’s post - you’d be looking to demonstrate any ways in which the penalty fare has not been issued in accordance/does not comply with The Railways (Penalty Fare) Regulations 2018.

 

[Royston Vasey]

No because I paid for a valid ticket and was not offered to pay for a new one whilst on board

With respect, the question was not addressed to you; your answer is only your opinion.

 

[AlterEgo]

With respect, the question was not addressed to you; your answer is only your opinion.

(It’s also incorrect; the penalty element may be refunded or waived on successful appeal but the fare may still be demanded - it isn’t always, but it can be demanded if the panel say it is due in the circumstances)