Are some trains too long?

[frankmoh]

Same on the Gatwick Express..
Move along a bit!

Was on a 12-car Thameslink train from Gatwick to London last week, the carriages next to the platform entrance stairs were all full, the front and back were pretty much empty. Even worse given how the you can walk through the entire train!

 

[AM9]

Was on a 12-car Thameslink train from Gatwick to London last week, the carriages next to the platform entrance stairs were all full, the front and back were pretty much empty. Even worse given how the you can walk through the entire train!

Gatwick is where most passengers are relatively unfamiliar with both the class 700s and their stopping places, (partly owing to their carrying luggage and maybe tiredness). Try the peak hour services where passengers choose their boarding cars with experience. That's when the long trains are needed to deliver slick operation for the masses.

 

[frankmoh]

Gatwick is where most passengers are relatively unfamiliar with both the class 700s and their stopping places, (partly owing to their carrying luggage and maybe tiredness). Try the peak hour services where passengers choose their boarding cars with experience. That's when the long trains are needed to deliver slick operation for the masses.

I will admit I was in carriage by the stairs for those 2 reasons.

On other, normal lines, passengers mostly have it figured out. You know, sit at the front if you are getting off at a terminus.

 

[AM9]

I will admit I was in carriage by the stairs for those 2 reasons.

On other, normal lines, passengers mostly have it figured out. You know, sit at the front if you are getting off at a terminus.

... and that practice is in itself modified by where seats are likely to be available. With the latest high density trains, (classes 345,7oo, 707, 710 & 717), moving to the optimum exit doors is practicable.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I think a lot of people just don't want to sit next to other people... Seen people standing in vestibules when plenty of seats are clearly visible.

 

[frankmoh]

I think a lot of people just don't want to sit next to other people... Seen people standing in vestibules when plenty of seats are clearly visible.

I've seen this happen many times on the Trams. Probably because of all the strange people or seats with mysterious stains.

 

[AM9]

I've seen this happen many times on the Trams. Probably because of all the strange people or seats with mysterious stains.

Not necessarily, it's the same on trains with clean seats. it's up to them though so long as they don't impede others from passing through the vestibule. They are probably among those whining that there aren't enough seats.

 

[frankmoh]

I will say that regardless of length, northbound Hayes Line trains have passengers heavily biased towards sitting in the front 2-3 carriages because of where the platform entrances are. Clock House is the worst station for this as everyone always seems crowded around the ramp to go up to street level.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Not necessarily, it's the same on trains with clean seats. it's up to them though so long as they don't impede others from passing through the vestibule. They are probably among those whining that there aren't enough seats.

The ones I see always seem to stand in the way and make no attempt to move out of the way of people boaring or trying to disembark.

 

[Silent]

Was on a 12-car Thameslink train from Gatwick to London last week, the carriages next to the platform entrance stairs were all full, the front and back were pretty much empty. Even worse given how the you can walk through the entire train!

I think for me this is nice as a passenger who likes quiet carriages or for someone who suffers from anxiety. I think it's also balanced on passenger experience. Crowded or well used trains are doing the job more efficiently I guess but don't always offer the best passenger experience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

I've seen this happen many times on the Trams. Probably because of all the strange people or seats with mysterious stains.

That's me sometimes, especially more on tube trains.

 

[MattRat]

If OP wishes to experience shorter trains, they are more than welcome to come up north

 

[frankmoh]

If OP wishes to experience shorter trains, they are more than welcome to come up north

I have never understood why most commuter DMUs are usually only 2/3 cars.

 

[JamesT]

I have never understood why most commuter DMUs are usually only 2/3 cars.

If you can justify demand that can’t be met by multiples of 2/3 then it has probably already been electrified. With a self-powered unit having to carry its fuel with it, that encourages optimising the length of your train much more.

 

[Krokodil]

If you can justify demand that can’t be met by multiples of 2/3 then it has probably already been electrified.

Or it hasn't been wired, but should have been years ago and is stuck with the DMUs it's been given.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you can justify demand that can’t be met by multiples of 2/3 then it has probably already been electrified. With a self-powered unit having to carry its fuel with it, that encourages optimising the length of your train much more.

That would be why the Transpennine and Cross-Country routes have already been electrified. Oh hang on...

 

[FrontSideBus]

Probably because in the North, the trains might be really busy near the cities but are pretty much empty when they head out into the sticks.

 

[Krokodil]

Probably because in the North, the trains might be really busy near the cities but are pretty much empty when they head out into the sticks.

Really? You could have fooled me with all of the Control emails coming through to me referencing overcrowding.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Really? You could have fooled me with all of the Control emails coming through to me referencing overcrowding.

I guess I have been imaging it then.

 

[Krokodil]

I guess I have been imaging it then.

Or you are selecting from a very small sample. Because there are a lot of busy trains away from cities.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Isn't that the point though? It's not economical viable to put more than two coaches onto a service that does get quite busy, often with people jammed in standing, but for only a few stations with the majority of the route being almost empty.
You can't put long trains on everything.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Isn't that the point though? It's not economical viable to put more than two coaches onto a service that does get quite busy, often with people jammed in standing, but for only a few stations with the majority of the route being almost empty.
You can't put long trains on everything.

Are there any routes like that? I can certainly think of lots of routes where the train is very lightly loaded at one end, and gradually fills up en route until it's totally rammed at the terminus: Lots of peak-time trains into London are like that (ironically for this discussion, usually run with 8-10 coach trains). But off the top of my head I can't think of any route that is almost empty for most of the route and then jammed for a couple of stations. And if there was a service like that, the obvious solution would be to run more trains and improve frequencies just over the crowded section.

 

[AM9]

Are there any routes like that? I can certainly think of lots of routes where the train is very lightly loaded at one end, and gradually fills up en route until it's totally rammed at the terminus: Lots of peak-time trains into London are like that (ironically for this discussion, usually run with 8-10 coach trains). But off the top of my head I can't think of any route that is almost empty for most of the route and then jammed for a couple of stations. And if there was a service like that, the obvious solution would be to run more trains and improve frequencies just over the crowded section.

That is precisely the design of many London suburban services, - run fast from central London terminals, (or core stations) to key distributor hubs, (e.g. Stratford/Shenfield, East Croydon, Watford Junction), then turn into stoppers to a home county town or railhead, Southend o S, Brighton, Tring/MK. The bulk of passengers alight at stops beyond the hubs, having been carried in a full train over the busiest tracks out Central London. Despite the overall capacity inefficiency of commuter services, it does make maximum use of the high capital costs already incurred.
How this scales to other UK cities varies where major hubs away from the centre but within the metropolitan area may not exist.

 

[sjm77]

The big problem in this country is that too many trains are too short, not that a small number might be too long. END OF DISCUSSION

 

[AM9]

The big problem in this country is that too many trains are too short, not that a small number might be too long. END OF DISCUSSION

You may not have anything to contribute but others here do so the discussion will inevitably continue. As long as the media broadcasts uninformed comments from disrupted passengers who call for the ubiquitous 'extra carriage' for their comfort.

 

[Cambrian359]

The big problem in this country is that too many trains are too short, not that a small number might be too long. END OF DISCUSSION

Indeed, you won’t hear a platform full of people sigh out loud when a full length train pulls in. But you will hear a collective sigh out loud when a 2 car special pulls into a busy platform already full and standing!

 

[Krokodil]

You may not have anything to contribute but others here do so the discussion will inevitably continue. As long as the media broadcasts uninformed comments from disrupted passengers who call for the ubiquitous 'extra carriage' for their comfort.

What do you mean that there's an empty carriage at the back? That's no good, we need an extra one at the front!

 

[AM9]

What do you mean that there's an empty carriage at the back? That's no good, we need an extra one at the front!

But an extra carriage at the front will mean that those passengers who regularly cut it too fine will miss the train, - better at the back making it easier for them.
Seriously though, assuming you mean what the interviewee meant. I don't know but it is an oft quoted comment from random members of the public and blindly repeated by the lay press who seem to think that adding carriage(s) is a simple option whenever trains get overcrowded. That 'ship sailed' way back in the last century on virtually all NR routes in the UK.
Of course, it's sometimes possible to attach an extra Multiple Unit to cover exceptional peak demands provided the stations stopped at can accommodate the additional length, but fleets are sized for the planned services and timetables crafted with the most economical diagramming using the available stock.
However, it appears that tacking a 2-car DMU on the end of a 2-car service is frequently done up north, if there are any working ones available!

 

[Killingworth]

What do you mean that there's an empty carriage at the back? That's no good, we need an extra one at the front!

Depends on stations. Travelling up to London from Burgess Hill the front coach is a natural choice. From London it's probably best to be in the last.

 

[Krokodil]

Depends on stations. Travelling up to London from Burgess Hill the front coach is a natural choice. From London it's probably best to be in the last.

In the case I have in mind it was Manchester Piccadilly, I think a Hadfield service. Some woman complaining that there should be another carriage in front (because she and everyone else crams into the front coach in order to be first to the gateline).

 

[frankmoh]

In the case I have in mind it was Manchester Piccadilly, I think a Hadfield service. Some woman complaining that there should be another carriage in front (because she and everyone else crams into the front coach in order to be first to the gateline).

Clearly what we need is a evolution of slip coaches, this time with EMUs!.

Let's imagine a consist of a 466 at the front and a 465 behind. When going into Victoria or Charing Cross, uncouple the 466 at the front and let the driver make it go towards a platform. Have someone else sitting in the 465's seat to drive it towards a different platform. This ingenious solution allows for 4 "front 2" coaches from a single train.

Sadly, Southeastern is DOO with the Networkers so this plan will never come to fruition. Among other reasons. /s