Why was P3 at Richmond never electrified with fourth rail to enable LU trains to use it? This one has always baffled me. There are five terminus platforms and they only put the fourth rail in four of them. It would hardly cost anything to do P3 as well and it would add extra flexibility during disruption or if some of the other four platforms had to be temporarily closed. Is there any particular reason why P3 never had fourth rail added to enable LU to use it?
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Why does Platform 3 at Richmond not have fourth rail for London Underground trains.
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Dstock7080
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corrected below
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Mcr Warrior
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So, if platform 3 at Richmond is non-electrified, what trains are routinely using it? There look to be several departures from there.
Flange Squeal
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It is electrified - just with third rail, not fourth rail like the other bay platforms are. It’s therefore used by London Overground services but not London Underground.
I think it’s got third rail, just not fourth rail.
Mcr Warrior
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Thanks for the explanation.
The extent to which LO and LU (District) trains stick to their own platforms is always something I find a bit surprising...
When the SR rebuilt the station in the 1930s (?) they provided for four tracks/platforms, with two islands, for their Windsor Line services - there would have been a new down line beyond platform 1, while the platform 3 would have been extended as a through line. But that plan for quadrupling got no further.
I don't think it was. Going back in time, while platforms 4-7 were always 4-rail electrified for LMS/LPTB trains via Gunnersbury, platform 3 was 'Southern' and scarcely used (possibly only for parcels vans) - I'm not even sure whether/when it was electrified. And the station was just as divided for passengers, with seperate barrier lines.
When the SR rebuilt the station in the 1930s (?) they provided for four tracks/platforms, with two islands, for their Windsor Line services - there would have been a new down line beyond platform 1, while the platform 3 would have been extended as a through line. But that plan for quadrupling got no further.
Dstock7080
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Apologies, I was referencing this photo, which is clearly not therefore of Richmond:
https://flic.kr/p/eaXcAh
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In the late-70s, early-80s trains were using a reversed arrangement to now, NLL in 6/7, Districts in 4/5.
(although given the above error, i maybe mis-remembering my career now!)
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Snow1964
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That picture is of Richmond, the unelectrified track is a third one between the other two, a former loco release line or non-electric empty stock stabling (now lifted)
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Correct, it was late 1930s, the next stage was rebuilding Twickenham to the other side of the road bridge, which was started then WW2 stopped the work. That was only finished in 1950s, although the two islands were never fully used to provide cross platform interchange fast/slow as the independent tracks to the Kingston loop were never completed.
A final stage would have been extra track from St Margaret's to Richmond with new river bridge, so centre track could be a reversible fast, leading to 4 through tracks (two island platforms) at Richmond. Would have allowed extra tidal flow commuter trains on the newly (1939) electrified Reading line.
The idea of reviving the widening did get looked at again back in late 1980s or early 1990s when the Overground Network was being looked at with a possible outer circle, extending the Overground line via Kingston loop. But the extra river bridge was deemed too expensive.
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Returning to the original question: that photograph (of Richmond after 1962) does show fourth rail in P3. So it must have been put in earlier and taken out since then.
Dstock7080
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An LU train wouldn't get past the home signal GB17 as the trainstop would remain up.
(as happened on the "Battery Rover" rail tour 2 October 1988!)
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Connection removed around 2020.
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Belperpete
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wasn't that when the through siding connection was removed? I thought the SWR connection to platform 3 went long before that?
Dstock7080
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Yes, it does appear to to around late 2015-early 2016
I remember well the connection between Pl.3 and the Up line. It had been out of use for a long time when it was removed. I think the last time it was used seriously was for the transfer of the 2-EPB trains to the North London Line (I think?). The third rail for the connection bristled with jumper cables and hook switches to facilitate this. I also think the removal of the fourth rail was simply so that there was less to worry about during stock transfers like this and to keep the Southern side of the station tidy, as it were.
It's not uncommon to see them swap platforms however 6 & 7 allow parallel movements in and out at the same time, 4 & 5 do not therefore it makes sense for the more frequent District service to use 6 & 7. Trains leaving 3 have to cross all lines and will therefore be slower hence why it isn't used as much.
One exception is rugby days when the usual Overground & Underground platform working tends to be swapped. This is because 4/5 is a wider platform and more able to handle the additional passenger flow.
Gag Halfrunt
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The SR must have considered that as a long term ambition, because part of the concourse would have to be demolished to turn Platform 3 into a through line. It does explain why there is a separate staircase down to Platform 2, as well as the wide staircase from the ticket hall to the concourse.
File:Richmond station MMB 09 378221.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
(Photo shows the concourse at Richmond station, looking east towards Platform 3.)
File:Richmond station London 2009-03-15.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
(Photo shows the concourse with Platforms 1 and 2 in the background, with Platforms 3 and 4 off to the left.)
Richmond Junction (the junction between the LSWR mainline and the District/NLR route) was eliminated in 1972, but partially reinstated in 1985 as an indirect connection to transfer stock between Platform 3 and the main line. It was finally eliminated for good on 2015.
It (SR Windsor Line quadrupling through Richmond) was, a someone has described ealier in this thread a medium-long term ambition. But it was certainly provided for in the new 1930s station: I don't believe there is any part of the station structure that would obstruct the new up line through platform 3, it would just be a matter of digging out part of the concourse to provide the trackbed.The SR must have considered that as a long term ambition, because part of the concourse would have to be demolished to turn Platform 3 into a through line. It does explain why there is a separate staircase down to Platform 2, as well as the wide staircase from the ticket hall to the concourse.
File:Richmond station MMB 09 378221.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.org
(Photo shows the concourse at Richmond station, looking east towards Platform 3.)
File:Richmond station London 2009-03-15.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
(Photo shows the concourse with Platforms 1 and 2 in the background, with Platforms 3 and 4 off to the left.)
And as I remember it from the 1960s, there was a barrier line (with gate never opened whenever I was there) dividing platforms 2 & 3 from 4 to 7 (to go with booking office segregation between 'Southern Rly.' and 'LMSR and LPTB' lines, as the window signs put it), with the two seperate staircases down from the entrance/booking office level - and requiring an 'up and over' change from up Southern to NLL/District Line services.
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