Where are the ticket inspectors?

[Hadders]

Sorry, I don't really understand this.
I thought if someone didn't have a valid ticket and couldn't give a good reason for this, then a penalty fare was issued.
The inspector didn't tell them that the phone / card would be blocked for future.
I'm not sure what 'validated' means, is it just that it showed they had means to pay?

I think you misunderstand how contactless and revenue inspections work.

All that happens during the revenue check is the card is touched on the revenue inspection device. The inspector cannot see whether or not the card has been touched in at the start of the journey.

The reconciliation happens overnight in the back office. There are two possible outcomes:

1. The card was touched-in (or validated to use the technical term) before the revenue inspection. If this happens then the revenue inspection is passed.
2. The card wasn't touched-in before the revenue inspection. If this happens the revenue inspection is failed and a maximum fare is charged. The card is blocked from future use on the TfL network

Based on what you've told us these girls will be getting charged maximum fares.

 

[Haywain]

The inspector didn't tell them that the phone / card would be blocked for future.

The inspector has no way of knowing if that will happen.

 

[Essexman]

I think you misunderstand how contactless and revenue inspections work.

All that happens during the revenue check is the card is touched on the revenue inspection device. The inspector cannot see whether or not the card has been touched in at the start of the journey.

The reconciliation happens overnight in the back office. There are two possible outcomes:

1. The card was touched-in (or validated to use the technical term) before the revenue inspection. If this happens then the revenue inspection is passed.
2. The card wasn't touched-in before the revenue inspection. If this happens the revenue inspection is failed and a maximum fare is charged. The card is blocked from future use on the TfL network

Based on what you've told us these girls will be getting charged maximum fares.

Thanks
No I didn't understand that properly.
So as they admitted not having touched in, to both the inspector and to me afterwards, the maximum fare will be taken from their cards and they will be blocked from future use. Fair enough I think, although it will come as a surprise to the girls as they thought they'd got away with it.
And to answer my original question, the revenue inspection wasn't a waste of time.
Thank you for your helpful and interesting answers.

 

[Jack D]

I've seen them once at Welling station, my old haunt and once on the DLR where I had forgotten to tap in. Luckily I was getting off at the next stop anyway.

The only other example I have was on a train from Truro to London Paddington where an inspector asked me for my ticket. I did have my ticket but as this was my first time doing such a big journey (I was about 13/14 at the time) I couldn't find it for ten minutes. Eventually I found my ticket, it was in my top shirt pocket but I remember the man looked ready to throw me off the train!

 

[Hadders]

So as they admitted not having touched in, to both the inspector and to me afterwards, the maximum fare will be taken from their cards and they will be blocked from future use. Fair enough I think, although it will come as a surprise to the girls as they thought they'd got away with it.

Correect! Although there are 'creases' with any system one good thing about the way this system is it takes the conflict away from the train.

And to answer my original question, the revenue inspection wasn't a waste of time.

No, it wasn't a waste of time. TfL will recover its revenue (plus some more).

Thank you for your helpful and interesting answers.

You're welcome!

 

[modernrail]

Correect! Although there are 'creases' with any system one good thing about the way this system is it takes the conflict away from the train.


No, it wasn't a waste of time. TfL will recover its revenue (plus some more).


You're welcome!

Where in the T&C’s do I consent to the railway taking money out of my account without my knowledge and without me being notified?

I had no idea it worked this way at and have been lied to by multiple revenue protection people.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the approach but I am not aware passengers have ever been educated as to how this works. May have missed relevant posters etc. However, assume there is a T&C for this.

 

[Watershed]

Where in the T&C’s do I consent to the railway taking money out of my account without my knowledge and without me being notified?

I had no idea it worked this way at and have been lied to by multiple revenue protection people.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the approach but I am not aware passengers have ever been educated as to how this works. May have missed relevant posters etc. However, assume there is a T&C for this.

It's in the terms and conditions of using contactless payment under the TfL system. That said, I have my doubts about how enforceable the maximum fares etc. are given that you aren't actually signposted to any terms and conditions anywhere when touching in at stations.

 

[Hadders]

Where in the T&C’s do I consent to the railway taking money out of my account without my knowledge and without me being notified?

I had no idea it worked this way at and have been lied to by multiple revenue protection people.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the approach but I am not aware passengers have ever been educated as to how this works. May have missed relevant posters etc. However, assume there is a T&C for this.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tfl-contactless-cards-and-devices-conditions-of-use.pdf

2.8 If you do not touch in and touch out correctly, you may be charged a maximum fare. If you are inspected by our revenue teams and found not to have touched in when using contactless to pay as you go, you may be charged a maximum fare or a revenue inspection charge. You may also be liable to a penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

2.17 When you touch your contactless card or device on a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are authorising TfL to charge the cost of your journey, including any maximum fares or unpaid fares, to your card account.

3.2 You must be prepared to show your contactless card or device on every journey you make with it. You must let an authorised member of staff or a police officer inspect your contactless card or device at any time during your journey if asked to do so. You may be asked to touch your card on their portable card reader as part of their inspection. By touching your card on the portable card reader, you are confirming that it is the card you intend to travel with and that you consent to the fare being charged to your card account.

3.3 If you are found not to have touched in at the start of your journey or if your mobile phone or contactless device has run out of battery and cannot be read, you may be charged a maximum fare, a revenue inspection charge or you may be given a penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

 

[frankmoh]

I wonder when they choose to use the maximum fare (£9 iirc?) and when to use the penalty fare. The TfL website says you can get a penalty fare on Oyster,

If you don't touch in and out correctly using contactless (card or device) or an Oyster card, or you don't have a valid ticket, you may be charged a penalty fare.

but is (a) penalty fare the same as THE penalty fare (the £100 one)?

 

[Haywain]

The TfL website says you can get a penalty fare on Oyster,

It says you may get a Penalty Fare, but it won't be "on Oyster" as Oyster is unlikely to have an appropriate amount of credit. It would be a normal Penalty Fare Notice.

 

[frankmoh]

When I was a kid, I remember one time I didn't tap in at Bromley North or Sundridge Park and did the incredibly short journey for free to go visit my friends.
I know I have made the point on this thread that SE never really has ticket inspectors but I wonder if I would get charged £100 now in 2025 for a one minute journey?

 

[Sonic1234]

I wonder when they choose to use the maximum fare (£9 iirc?) and when to use the penalty fare.

On contactless it will be the maximum fare (£9). A penalty fare would apply on Oyster, because they can see if the card has been touched in or not, or if the contactless card is blocked.

If a contactless card is valid and not been previously blocked by TfL, it will pass the inspection and either nothing further happens (if tapped in) or a max fare charged (if not tapped in).

I know I have made the point on this thread that SE never really has ticket inspectors but I wonder if I would get charged £100 now in 2025 for a one minute journey?

SE metro still doesn't really have ticket inspectors - their assumption seems to be everyone is going to London or the major towns which are gated, and they're not that concerned about short flows between minor stations. If were inspected and you presented a not-tapped-in Oyster card or confessed to no ticket, £100 (or worse). Presented a contactless card, £9.

 

[Hadders]

I can't remember the figure but I'm certain it's more than £9.

 

[modernrail]

Thank you. Ah so this is just TfL? Does that mean if I am inspected on Thameslink at say Tulse Hill I am charged the maximum TfL fare? What if I am inspected on Thameslink outside the TfL area?

I will admit to being a little uncomfortable about how automatic this is. Perhaps also not that effective in producing a deterrent effect if a lot of the time people don’t notice it leave their account as well.

Not that the alternative (paperwork etc) is palatable but I do think much increased education is called for.

 

[frankmoh]

SE metro still doesn't really have ticket inspectors - their assumption seems to be everyone is going to London or the major towns which are gated, and they're not that concerned about short flows between minor stations. If were inspected and you presented a not-tapped-in Oyster card or confessed to no ticket, £100 (or worse). Presented a contactless card, £9.

The vast majority of the time that assumption would be correct, but still that's pretty bad. Hayes-Ladywell is a 7 miles 50 chains (7.62mi) journey and someone with enough gumption could get away with it for quite some time. THere's other metro lines on SE as well that have probably got more ungated stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

Thank you. Ah so this is just TfL? Does that mean if I am inspected on Thameslink at say Tulse Hill I am charged the maximum TfL fare? What if I am inspected on Thameslink outside the TfL area?

The £100 penalty fare applies to everywhere in England outside of the Oyster Card Zones. Well actually I think it's anywhere outside of Zone 9 because a trip from Victoria to Gatwick costs £15 or something even in the off peak.

 

[Essexman]

Where in the T&C’s do I consent to the railway taking money out of my account without my knowledge and without me being notified?

I had no idea it worked this way at and have been lied to by multiple revenue protection people.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the approach but I am not aware passengers have ever been educated as to how this works. May have missed relevant posters etc. However, assume there is a T&C for this.

The girls on the Upminster train were told by the inspector there wouldn’t be any money taken when they handed over their phones. True none was taken at the time but it seems it will be later. They may feel that they’ve been misled. Not that I have a lot of sympathy as they had boarded with no intention of paying and the alternative was a more expensive penalty fare.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you. Ah so this is just TfL? Does that mean if I am inspected on Thameslink at say Tulse Hill I am charged the maximum TfL fare? What if I am inspected on Thameslink outside the TfL area?

I will admit to being a little uncomfortable about how automatic this is. Perhaps also not that effective in producing a deterrent effect if a lot of the time people don’t notice it leave their account as well.

Not that the alternative (paperwork etc) is palatable but I do think much increased education is called for.

It applies across the South East contactless zone, which is administered by TfL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

The £100 penalty fare applies to everywhere in England outside of the Oyster Card Zones. Well actually I think it's anywhere outside of Zone 9 because a trip from Victoria to Gatwick costs £15 or something even in the off peak.

Penalty Fares on TfL are £100. Penalty Fares on National Rail are £100 plus the appropriate fare. Both are discounted if paid within 21-days.

Penalty Fares and maximum fares are different things.

 

[Haywain]

The £100 penalty fare applies to everywhere in England outside of the Oyster Card Zones. Well actually I think it's anywhere outside of Zone 9 because a trip from Victoria to Gatwick costs £15 or something even in the off peak.

It applies to everywhere, including within the London zones, where the train company (this includes TfL) operates a Penalty Fare scheme. The price of travelling from Victoria to Gatwick has no bearing on whether a Penalty Fare may be issued or not.

 

[allbarbarry]

I’ve noticed Southern On-Board Supervisors have become a lot more interested in checking tickets as of late - however this is often met with hostility from the usual undesirables. Just this evening, in the same coach I was sat in, an OBS was assaulted and spat on during a ticket check. Fare evasion is rife without the necessary support of staff and the backup of the BTP.

 

[Kilopylae]

I have never encountered a ticket inspector on the London commuter operators, Thameslink, Southern, Southeastern, Greater Anglia. However, when I'm travelling on GWR, CrossCountry, and Chiltern (also arguably a commuter operator, but I'm talking about further out), I encounter them upwards of 80% of the time on both local and intercity journeys. So the unofficial impression I have is that they're not really "a thing" on the London commuter circuit but still ubiquitous elsewhere.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't remember the figure but I'm certain it's more than £9.

The standard maximum fare is £10.40 peak and £7.00 off-peak. The term revenue inspection charge seems to potentially suggest that there may be a higher charge for failing an inspection. It's one I'm looking to take up in the future.

Well actually I think it's anywhere outside of Zone 9 because a trip from Victoria to Gatwick costs £15 or something even in the off peak.

I'm not sure whether you're suggesting Gatwick is in zone 9 or not, but it isn't. Oyster is accepted at a number of places beyond the 9 London zones.

 

[frankmoh]

The standard maximum fare is £10.40 peak and £7.00 off-peak. The term revenue inspection charge seems to potentially suggest that there may be a higher charge for failing an inspection. It's one I'm looking to take up in the future.

I'm not sure whether you're suggesting Gatwick is in zone 9 or not, but it isn't. Oyster is accepted at a number of places beyond the 9 London zones.

Gatwick is outside of Zone 9, but still in the Oyster Zones (14). I assume the £10.40 peak fare applies only to Zone 1-9 since a trip from Zone 1 to 14 costs more.

 

[MikeWh]

Gatwick is outside of Zone 9, but still in the Oyster Zones (14). I assume the £10.40 peak fare applies only to Zone 1-9 since a trip from Zone 1 to 14 costs more.

Yes, generally the basic maximum fare only applies in zones 1-9. Once you get further out it becomes more complicated.

 

[modernrail]

It applies across the South East contactless zone, which is administered by TfL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==


Penalty Fares on TfL are £100. Penalty Fares on National Rail are £100 plus the appropriate fare. Both are discounted if paid within 21-days.

Penalty Fares and maximum fares are different things.

What is the South Eastern contactless zone?

Is it zoned, with a different maximum fare applying in each zone?

 

[Krokodil]

I’ve noticed Southern On-Board Supervisors have become a lot more interested in checking tickets as of late - however this is often met with hostility from the usual undesirables. Just this evening, in the same coach I was sat in, an OBS was assaulted and spat on during a ticket check. Fare evasion is rife without the necessary support of staff and the backup of the BTP.

Having such a long period with sporadic checks doesn't help. Scallies get used to getting away with it, and it takes a hard crackdown to bring them in line.

The term revenue inspection charge seems to potentially suggest that there may be a higher charge for failing an inspection. It's one I'm looking to take up in the future.

Sounds more like a £0.00 or £0.01 test transaction that is used to 'prove' the card without any money actually being deducted. A bit like when you book accommodation without paying upfront, they still check your card

 

[Hadders]

What is the South Eastern contactless zone?

The routes in south-east England where contactless cards can be used to pay for travel. The area is being expanded, see discussions elsewhere on Project Oval.

Is it zoned, with a different maximum fare applying in each zone?

I've no idea now maximum fares are determined but as the contactless area expands then potentially the maximum fare needs to increase.

 

[frankmoh]

What is the South Eastern contactless zone?

Is it zoned, with a different maximum fare applying in each zone?

On Southeastern's map, Sevenoaks is outside of both the Oyster fare zones and contactless (shown with the dotted line) zones.

However, on the Govia Thameslink Railway map, Sevenoaks is shown in the contactless zone but NOT the Oyster card zones.

It's confusing and I could not tell you exactly what it is.

 

[Essexman]

I have never encountered a ticket inspector on the London commuter operators, Thameslink, Southern, Southeastern, Greater Anglia. However, when I'm travelling on GWR, CrossCountry, and Chiltern (also arguably a commuter operator, but I'm talking about further out), I encounter them upwards of 80% of the time on both local and intercity journeys. So the unofficial impression I have is that they're not really "a thing" on the London commuter circuit but still ubiquitous elsewhere.

I encounter ticket inspectors and checks on Greater Anglia more than with any other operator.
Very common to see two or three revenue people board, particularly at Shenfield. Travelling yesterday my ticket was checked twice by inspectors and once by the guard - who are generally very active on Harwich, Clacton & Walton lines.
(In addition to TFL check on Romford - Upminster).

 

[modernrail]

View attachment 183309
On Southeastern's map, Sevenoaks is outside of both the Oyster fare zones and contactless (shown with the dotted line) zones.
View attachment 183310
However, on the Govia Thameslink Railway map, Sevenoaks is shown in the contactless zone but NOT the Oyster card zones.

It's confusing and I could not tell you exactly what it is.

It is not really very satisfactory is it.

If charges are going to be automatic with no notification other than your bank statement passengers should be able to find out very easily and should be educated on:

- what might happen after you are inspected
- what the consequences will be in terms of maximum/penalty fare
- how to appeal in some form or other if you have made a mistake in presenting the wrong card etc, or at least be really clear about the consequences of getting that wrong.

I am sure there are many like me who currently assume if there is a problem it will be flagged to me upon inspection

There are also lots of easy mistakes that could happen here, for example:

- passenger scans through barrier with ticket barcode but presents card
- passenger presents wrong card by accident
- passenger has paper ticket but presents card

There is a certain amount of automatic pilot that creeps in with contactless. For instance I am forever buying an e-tickets for journeys down to south coast then forgetting to use the barcode and just tapping my phone on the reader instead the force of habit. Then I realise after I have gone through and have no idea what the best thing to do is.

 

[frankmoh]

I don't actually know what's going on with Sevenoaks. Can you use contactless on Thameslink trains but not Southeastern?