How many TfW services don't go to Wales?

[321362]

Hi all,

I was recently wondering how many TfW services don't serve any stations in Wales. The Crewe-Chester shuttle jumps to mind, are there any others?

 

[Class15]

Crewe-Shrewsbury.

 

[321362]

Crewe-Shrewsbury.

Does that exist, as a standalone service? I thought all of them went on to the Marches line or the HoW.

Edit: have checked and yes, they do!

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[Zomboid]

The Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester service is TfW, isn't it?

 

[WirralLine]

The Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester service is TfW, isn't it?

Indeed it is.

There are also the evening and sunday Chester- Warrington- Manchester services.

 

[321362]

The Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester service is TfW, isn't it?

Yep, that's another one!

I know that TfW used to (do they still?) run services between Crewe and Wolverhampton via Stafford, did any of those start at Chester or Manchester or somewhere?

 

[jfollows]

There are early Crewe-Manchester services, especially on Sunday mornings, and late Manchester-Shrewsbury services.

 

[LowLevel]

There's the odd Wolverhampton/Birmingham to Shrewsbury short working too.

 

[MP393]

Yep, that's another one!

I know that TfW used to (do they still?) run services between Crewe and Wolverhampton via Stafford, did any of those start at Chester or Manchester or somewhere?

It was a very early morning Chester - Birmingham via Crewe & Stafford. It still runs now, but from Crewe it goes via Shrewsbury & Telford.

 

[A S Leib]

I'm sure that there was a post on here at some point looking at other TOCs with routes with unrepresentative names, but I can't find it right now. Off the top of my head, and aware that this isn't what was asked for, I can think of

London Overground: all of the routes are mostly in London and mostly overground, but the Lioness / Watford DC, Weaver / Lea Valley and Windrush / East London lines fail at least one of the two.

Avanti West Coast: the west coast is briefly visible on Scotland and – depending on if you count the northwest English and north Welsh coasts separately – Holyhead services, and Liverpool and Blackpool are west coast locations, but Manchester and Birmingham are not.

Chiltern Railways: Leamington Spa to Stratford and Birmingham services don't go through the Chilterns. Princes Risborough to Aylesbury at least forms part of the AONB / National Landscape border.

EMR: Liverpool to Norwich mostly serves stations outside of the East Midlands, but does at least connect them to Grantham, Nottingham and Chesterfield.

Great Northern: King's Lynn may be in the land of northern folk and Hertford north of London, but definitely not in northern England.

GWR: Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley, North Downs, Basingstoke, Newbury and Didcot / Oxford (excluding Moreton-in-Marsh) services are entirely outside the South West / West Midlands (if almost all still west of London)

LNER: Lincoln definitely isn't the North East; I'd say that Leeds, York and Hull are in eastern northern England, if not in the North East region.

London Northwestern: only Trent Valley stoppers fully serve both areas, with the Abbey and Marston Vale lines doing neither. Birmingham – Liverpool and Stafford – Stoke – Crewe services serve the latter and the remaining Euston services serve London and somewhere to the northwest of London outside the North West.

South Western: only Poole / Weymouth, Exeter and Westbury services enter the south west; as with Great Northern and GWR, it does better if measuring directions in relation to London.

TransPennine Express: I'm fairly sure that Manchester / Liverpool to Scotland via Carlisle services don't go through the Pennines, Newcastle – Edinburgh ones definitely don't, and I'm unsure if Hope Valley ones do.

 

[KN94]

I'm sure that there was a post on here at some point looking at other TOCs with routes with unrepresentative names, but I can't find it right now. Off the top of my head, and aware that this isn't what was asked for, I can think of

The Pennines extend much further than the hills between Manchester - Leeds, they include the North Pennines in Cumbria / Northumberland down to the Peak District. I'd say the only non-"trans" Pennine service TPE run would be the Newcastle - Edinburgh service group.
(Apologies for digressing from the OP's TfW question)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are early Crewe-Manchester services, especially on Sunday mornings, and late Manchester-Shrewsbury services.

Some of these originate at Chester, and are a way to get stock from Chester depot on to the Marches service.
People seem to forget that the TfW operation is officially Wales & Borders, and its remit is not solely to serve Wales.

 

[A S Leib]

Are there any examples during engineering works, such as Gloucester to Cheltenham shuttles?

 

[Harpo]

I know that TfW used to (do they still?) run services between Crewe and Wolverhampton via Stafford, did any of those start at Chester or Manchester or somewhere?

I thought it had been said that there is no longer any TfW route knowledge via Stafford but note that a TfW 67 did a test run between Crewe and Stafford yesterday.

 

[Caaardiff]

Are there any examples during engineering works, such as Gloucester to Cheltenham shuttles?

Not by TFW as there's other operators on that route. It would also mean no maintenance and servicing facilities for TFW.

I thought it had been said that there is no longer any TfW route knowledge via Stafford but note that a TfW 67 did a test run between Crewe and Stafford yesterday.

TFW Drivers don't sign that route any more.

 

[Djgr]

Although it should be remembered that Chester station is less than 3 miles from the border and, indeed, some of its suburbs are in Wales.

 

[amahy]

Some of these originate at Chester, and are a way to get stock from Chester depot on to the Marches service.
People seem to forget that the TfW operation is officially Wales & Borders, and its remit is not solely to serve Wales.

Given the constant bombardment of Welsh announcements and notices on services entirely in England, I’m not surprised!

 

[321362]

It was a very early morning Chester - Birmingham via Crewe & Stafford. It still runs now, but from Crewe it goes via Shrewsbury & Telford.

Ah that makes sense. Was it withdrawn for any particular reason, or was it just seen as unnecessary?

Some of these originate at Chester, and are a way to get stock from Chester depot on to the Marches service.
People seem to forget that the TfW operation is officially Wales & Borders, and its remit is not solely to serve Wales.

That's true. It's not like ScotRail, who only serve one station outside of Scotland (Carlisle).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah that makes sense. Was it withdrawn for any particular reason, or was it just seen as unnecessary?

Holyhead-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham was in BR days a main RRNW service (hourly to Crewe, 2-hourly on to Brum).
Under WG/ATW this was diverted via Wrexham and Shrewsbury, with the odd early/late one retained for route knowledge (Virgin also had one train a day Birmingham-Holyhead via Stafford). Crewe-Chester became a shuttle.
ATW/TfW also ran Crewe-Shrewsbury via Stafford and Telford during engineering works.
TfW now seem to have dropped via Stafford completely, but Avanti still run their early/late Birmingham-Holyhead this way.
Through passengers still grumble about the changes at Crewe and the longer journey time via Shrewsbury.

During engineering works I once did a Chester-Shrewsbury grand tour, on Virgin to Crewe via Middlewich, then ATW on to Shrewsbury via Stafford and Telford.

 

[cle]

Although it should be remembered that Chester station is less than 3 miles from the border and, indeed, some of its suburbs are in Wales.

Indeed. Ostensibly it’s the main city for North Wales (ducks!)

 

[Class 170101]

I know that TfW used to (do they still?) run services between Crewe and Wolverhampton via Stafford, did any of those start at Chester or Manchester or somewhere?

This train went to and from Birmingham (New Street) but as noted above no longer runs as TfW no longer sign via Stafford.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Holyhead-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham was in BR days a main RRNW service (hourly to Crewe, 2-hourly on to Brum).

That isn’t correct. In BR days it was an hourly Bangor-Crewe service with several extensions to Holyhead at key times to meet various ferries. Of these Holyhead trains, there was one very early morning that went through to Birmingham, returning mid-morning. There was also an early evening service to Birmingham that returned later that night. (The ‘Emerald Isle Express’ if I recall correctly.)

The 2-hourly Birminghams were a creation of First North Western around 1998-9 mainly as an ORCATS raid on Central Trains and Virgin for the Crewe-Birmingham traffic. By 2001-2 the 37s had been replaced by stopgap 47s and ex-FGW air-cons, and 158s, until the 175 fleet made it into traffic. When Wales & Borders was subsequently created the Birmingham-Holyhead route was remapped via Shrewsbury as an integral part of the Birmingham-Aberystwyth diagrams.

 

[321362]

Indeed. Ostensibly it’s the main city for North Wales (ducks!)

Bangor..?

 

[Djgr]

Bangor..?

From a retail viewpoint, if not Chester then Llandudno

 

[6Gman]

The capital city of North Wales is Liverpool.

The regional daily newspaper most read in North Wales is the Liverpool Daily Post.

And there are two (not one, two) National Eisteddfod Chairs on display at Liverpool Town Hall.

 

[Djgr]

The capital city of North Wales is Liverpool.

The regional daily newspaper most read in North Wales is the Liverpool Daily Post.

And there are two (not one, two) National Eisteddfod Chairs on display at Liverpool Town Hall.

which makes you wonder why there is only one direct train a day from Liverpool to Wales, whereas Manchester has about 25.

 

[TheSmiths82]

which makes you wonder why there is only one direct train a day from Liverpool to Wales, whereas Manchester has about 25.

Possibly because of the very frequent Mersey Rail services to Chester making it connections to Wales very easy.

 

[Jez]

The majority of services that dont serve Wales are just shorter journeys at the start/end of the day on routes that do serve Wales -e.g Crewe to Manchester.

There are also those that sometimes (or will eventually) extend into Wales like Liverpool-Chester and Crewe-Chester.

The Crewe-Chester shuttle is an interesting one as its just a short journey with no calling points in between the 2 stations. However I guess it makes sense for TFW to operate this given they have train crew in both Chester and Crewe. It would likely extend into North Wales like it does on a Sunday if it wasnt for the fact there are already services to North Wales from Manchester and from Birmingham/Cardiff via Wrexham.

It worth noting that the majority of the Cardiff-Manchester route is within England with just Abergavenny-Cardiff in Wales.

 

[Harpo]

The Crewe-Chester shuttle is an interesting one as its just a short journey with no calling points in between the 2 stations.

An orphan of political dogma, its trains stripped out to feed TfWs slower journies via Wrexham.

 

[321362]

The majority of services that dont serve Wales are just shorter journeys at the start/end of the day on routes that do serve Wales -e.g Crewe to Manchester.

There are also those that sometimes (or will eventually) extend into Wales like Liverpool-Chester and Crewe-Chester.

The Crewe-Chester shuttle is an interesting one as its just a short journey with no calling points in between the 2 stations. However I guess it makes sense for TFW to operate this given they have train crew in both Chester and Crewe. It would likely extend into North Wales like it does on a Sunday if it wasnt for the fact there are already services to North Wales from Manchester and from Birmingham/Cardiff via Wrexham.

It worth noting that the majority of the Cardiff-Manchester route is within England with just Abergavenny-Cardiff in Wales.

I was wondering, during engineering works, do any Manchester to Cardiff services get turned at Hereford, therefore having that whole journey in England?