GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[Woods]

If I may act to quash the speculation. 230001 is very definitely going to go into passenger service this summer, on the Greenford branch. That is why all the drivers are being trained and the 3-car Stop Markers have been put up on the branch. This week there has been some good media coverage but also some inaccuracies and misconceptions have crept in, one of the worst offenders being the GWR media team itself, who today put out the Instagram post, "Sorry Spotters. No, we’re not going to see underground trains replacing current trains on the mainline – but this one has done a great job acting as the testbed for proving our fast-charge battery technology". What I think they were trying to convey in a joking sort of way was that (former) Underground trains (Class 230) are not going to be replacing mainline trains any time soon, i.e. the 800s, 802s, 387s etc. Well yeah, obviously. But the little joke backfired. It was an unfortunate turn of phrase. But anyway, it can't be revealed exactly when the train is going to come into passenger service this summer, there are still some issues to address, such as the aircon being less than satisfactory. The train is returning to Reading for two weeks to have that seen to, but the work might extend a little beyond that. Watch this space though. No doubt, when an Entry into Service date is confirmed, the GWR media team will be out in force again....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

As in, the GWR one might go to Transport for Wales to be a spare for the ones there after GWR have finished testing, since those are the only other Class 230s currently in use, though of a different type, and they would need the fast-charging equipment installed there as well for the GWR one to be used in service there? I don’t know if the GWR one’s batteries are the same as the ones in the TfW ones.

No, this won't happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

Does the DfT think that training drivers on it would cost too much money?

Drivers are already being trained on it, please see above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

If they have definitely decided that there will be no more conversions it would be a bit of a waste of money.

It hasn't definitely been decided, but it seems unlikely at this time of very limited funding for transport. Plus GWR are pursuing a new train fleet under "Project Churchward", now renamed "Green Railways for Growth", because nobody other than railway enthusiasts and engineers knew who Mr Churchward was

 

[The exile]

230001 has, in its existence thus far, only ever acted as a demonstrator unit. So I’m not sure what your ”waste of money” statement is in reference to - the unit is only doing what it was built to do.

It would be a waste of money training the crews needed to operate it in service. Would be different if there were going to be more of them.

 

[Woods]

It would be a waste of money training the crews needed to operate it in service. Would be different if there were going to be more of them.

Why is it a waste of money to train drivers to drive the battery train? Surely it would be a greater waste of money to trial the battery train for a year but then lay it up because no drivers were trained to use it?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Greenford is not “the mainline” so it may well still enter service, but without expansion.

Based on the research in their report, I can see it being expanded to only the Henley, Marlow and Windsor Branches in the London Thames Valley, as well as some branches in Devon and Cornwall.

 

[martin butler]

I still think the 230 battery units might be a cost-effective means to replace the old DMU's on the Cornish branches,
Most of those are self-contained branches, so the charging rail could be quite easy to set up, even with a ten - 15-year life span, that would give the industry time to perfect the next version of battery technology servicing could be either at Plymouth, or Penzance

 

[BerkshireRails]

I still think the 230 battery units might be a cost-effective means to replace the old DMU's on the Cornish branches,
Most of those are self-contained branches, so the charging rail could be quite easy to set up, even with a ten - 15-year life span, that would give the industry time to perfect the next version of battery technology servicing could be either at Plymouth, or Penzance

In the GWR report, they mentioned Falmouth, Looe, Newquay and Gunnislake branches for the 230s battery trains.

 

[sad1e]

In the GWR report, they mentioned Falmouth, Looe, Newquay and Gunnislake branches for the 230s battery trains.

How are they gonna manage all those branches with a single 230.

They would very much so need to build more units which i dont think they will.

 

[BerkshireRails]

How are they gonna manage all those branches with a single 230.

They would very much so need to build more units which i dont think they will.

They have 67 D-Stock Cars left to convert, plus you have the ex-LNR units as well. GWR could buy the two pop-up Metro units.

 

[FenMan]

Think the DfR GBR policy would be to go for new leased trains (with batteries) to eventually replace the DMUs with low upfront costs and a 30-40 year life, rather than a high upfront cost of conversion (where money is tight) with a limited say 10 year life.

But we will see, Porterbrook still seems to want to provide converted trains on a leased basis?

I agree. It may turn out to be moonshine, but both .gov and the operator see where the North Downs Line is heading. Both are praying a battery/3rd rail concept is viable, otherwise it's shutdown the line or order new DMUs. Either choice would be problematic, to say the least.

 

[Anonymous10]

In the GWR report, they mentioned Falmouth, Looe, Newquay and Gunnislake branches for the 230s battery trains.

Surprised st Ives isn't, reasonably short length and appears flat.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surprised st Ives isn't, reasonably short length and appears flat.

It’s expected to get five carriage trains at some point as its absolutely ridiculously crowded in summer - to the point of queuing systems at both ends. Work has just been done to accommodate it. You’d need to couple two three carriage 230s together to not drop from the capacity of a five carriage Sprinter.

 

[Woods]

How are they gonna manage all those branches with a single 230.

They would very much so need to build more units which i dont think they will.

No I think the idea is that they would build more 230s for the Devon/Cornwall branches, if that was sanctioned as a medium-term solution. But longer term they are looking at a single, homogeneous, fleet of new trains, to replace all their regional DMUs (150, 158, 165, 166). And these would be battery bi-modes capable of being powered by OHLE (where available) and batteries (where OHLE not available), serving secondary routes / branch lines over the full 'patch' right from the Thames Valley down to Cornwall. Where the West Ealing-style Fast Charge system fits into this, is anybody's guess at the moment. They'd have to convince a train manufacturer to adopt it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

It’s expected to get five carriage trains at some point as its absolutely ridiculously crowded in summer - to the point of queuing systems at both ends. Work has just been done to accommodate it. You’d need to couple two three carriage 230s together to not drop from the capacity of a five carriage Sprinter.

Best thing in my opinion would be to build 7 or 8 new 3-car 230s (56m long), all to a common configuration, which could serve as many branch lines as possible, but could also be coupled together into 6-car units for the busy season on certain routes e.g. St Ives and Henley Regatta, where platform lengths allow.

 

[RPI]

Surprised st Ives isn't, reasonably short length and appears flat.

Definitely not flat, quite a climb out of st ives at around 1 in 60, then there is quite a long climb to go from near sea level at Lelant up to the cliff tops at Carbis Bay, I can't put my eyes on a gradient profile right now, but that is a good 1.5-2 mile climb at around 1 in 80 (I'm sure I'll be corrected shortly as to the exact gradients), but fair to say definitely not flat.

 

[martin butler]

Short term, theres the units already built, they could be converted to battery mode, and the demonstrator made fit for service use, so thats 3 units, that could be readied for service quite quickly, as isnt everything traction wise self contained and in effect plug and play? that would enable the Brentford branch, and possibly one other to be turned over to 230 traction, and in the meanwhile the remaining stocks, get overhauled, and rebuilt your be talking 5 , units, that could then be introduced onto the Cornish, and Devon branches,

Those could be strengthened over time, when the first 3 sets can be replaced by a new OHL/ battery design, meaning the entire class can be concentrated on devon and Cornish routes, with servicing done, either at Plymouth, or Penzance.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Surprised st Ives isn't, reasonably short length and appears flat.

Doesn't the St Ives line have infamously tight turnarounds with the ~12 minute journey time running every half hour, would there be enough time to consistently charge the battery with the 4 or so minute turn around (especailly in the face of crowds causing delays)?

Although it is only 4 and a bit miles each way, so well below a full charge.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Short term, theres the units already built, they could be converted to battery mode, and the demonstrator made fit for service use, so thats 3 units,

Confused now. Do you mean 230001 (the GWR battery unit) and 230002 and 011 (the pop up metro units, also battery powered, and now in America)?

230003-5 are the Marston Vale units
230006-10 are the TfL units
484001-5 are the IoW units

 

[RPI]

Doesn't the St Ives line have infamously tight turnarounds with the ~12 minute journey time running every half hour, would there be enough time to consistently charge the battery with the 4 or so minute turn around (especailly in the face of crowds causing delays)?

Although it is only 4 and a bit miles each way, so well below a full charge.

Yes, 3 minute turn arounds at each end all day, St Ives would probably be the worst line to put them on, all of the Devon and Cornwall branches are way too intensive in my humble opinion, even Looe has relatively tight timings in order to maintain the near clockface Hourly service. Gunnislake and Newquay have probably the most slack, but with Newquay going to be interworked with the Falmouth then that may throw some slack out.

 

[martin butler]

Confused now. Do you mean 230001 (the GWR battery unit) and 230002 and 011 (the pop up metro units, also battery powered, and now in America)?

230003-5 are the Marston Vale units
230006-10 are the TfL units
484001-5 are the IoW units

230003 and 5 aren't these stored? those along with 230001 could be made ready, in a lot shorter time, to operate Brentford, services whilst the remaining D78 stocks are rebuilt.

 

[Anonymous10]

It’s expected to get five carriage trains at some point as its absolutely ridiculously crowded in summer - to the point of queuing systems at both ends. Work has just been done to accommodate it. You’d need to couple two three carriage 230s together to not drop from the capacity of a five carriage Sprinter.

Granted, but possibly an option as how do you get a 5 carriage sprinter from a overstretched fleet of 2 carriage units.

 

[Class15]

230003 and 5 aren't these stored? those along with 230001 could be made ready, in a lot shorter time, to operate Brentford, services whilst the remaining D78 stocks are rebuilt.

Now that’s an interesting idea!

 

[Invincible]

If I may act to quash the speculation. 230001 is very definitely going to go into passenger service this summer, on the Greenford branch. That is why all the drivers are being trained and the 3-car Stop Markers have been put up on the branch. This week there has been some good media coverage but also some inaccuracies and misconceptions have crept in, one of the worst offenders being the GWR media team itself, who today put out the Instagram post, "Sorry Spotters. No, we’re not going to see underground trains replacing current trains on the mainline – but this one has done a great job acting as the testbed for proving our fast-charge battery technology". What I think they were trying to convey in a joking sort of way was that (former) Underground trains (Class 230) are not going to be replacing mainline trains any time soon, i.e. the 800s, 802s, 387s etc. Well yeah, obviously. But the little joke backfired. It was an unfortunate turn of phrase. But anyway, it can't be revealed exactly when the train is going to come into passenger service this summer, there are still some issues to address, such as the aircon being less than satisfactory. The train is returning to Reading for two weeks to have that seen to, but the work might extend a little beyond that. Watch this space though. No doubt, when an Entry into Service date is confirmed, the GWR media team will be out in force again....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==


No, this won't happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==


Drivers are already being trained on it, please see above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==


It hasn't definitely been decided, but it seems unlikely at this time of very limited funding for transport. Plus GWR are pursuing a new train fleet under "Project Churchward", now renamed "Green Railways for Growth", because nobody other than railway enthusiasts and engineers knew who Mr Churchward was

Good News about the Greenford branch.

Interesting comment about the GWR media team!
Will have to wait for more details on "Green Railways for growth", but I expect discussions with potential shortlisted manufacturers have begun?.

 

[AdamWW]

Doesn't the St Ives line have infamously tight turnarounds with the ~12 minute journey time running every half hour, would there be enough time to consistently charge the battery with the 4 or so minute turn around (especailly in the face of crowds causing delays)?

Although it is only 4 and a bit miles each way, so well below a full charge.

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I thought the whole point of the fast charging scheme was that it could recharge the batteries in the time it takes to turn round the train.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I thought the whole point of the fast charging scheme was that it could recharge the batteries in the time it takes to turn round the train.

Yes, but I dont remember the exact figure, it's probably in their paper somewhere and I think with how fast it is it should be able to recharge the 8.3 mile round trip in the few minutes at St Erth.

 

[RUK]

230002 and 011 (the pop up metro units, also battery powered, and now in America)?

I guess it was too expensive for GWR to re-import these, otherwise presumably they would have done so, since they bought everything else which was available to do with the D-Train project?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Confused now. Do you mean 230001 (the GWR battery unit) and 230002 and 011 (the pop up metro units, also battery powered, and now in America)?

230003-5 are the Marston Vale units
230006-10 are the TfL units
484001-5 are the IoW units

When did Transport for London get 230006-230010?

Short term, theres the units already built, they could be converted to battery mode, and the demonstrator made fit for service use, so thats 3 units, that could be readied for service quite quickly, as isnt everything traction wise self contained and in effect plug and play? that would enable the Brentford branch, and possibly one other to be turned over to 230 traction, and in the meanwhile the remaining stocks, get overhauled, and rebuilt your be talking 5 , units, that could then be introduced onto the Cornish, and Devon branches,

Those could be strengthened over time, when the first 3 sets can be replaced by a new OHL/ battery design, meaning the entire class can be concentrated on devon and Cornish routes, with servicing done, either at Plymouth, or Penzance.

GWR could get between 12-14 3-car 230s. 2 units would come from the US, 4 would come from GWR's current fleet, and the rest would come from the 67 D78 Stock vehicles.

 

[DelW]

When did Transport for London get 230006-230010?

I think there were a few posters on the now-closed "Transport for Wales class 230s" thread who would have taken any chance to send them back to their original home

 

[Invincible]

When did Transport for London get 230006-230010?

GWR could get between 12-14 3-car 230s. 2 units would come from the US, 4 would come from GWR's current fleet, and the rest would come from the 67 D78 Stock vehicles.

TfW!
Think the "Green Railways for growth" project team at DfT/ GBR will be looking at the costs with manufacturers and leasing companies about the total cost over several years. It may work out cheaper long term to build purpose built new trains, rather than rebuild 230s

 

[DavidGrain]

230002 and 011 are in America and surely not worth the expense of purchasing them from whoever now owns them and repatriating them.
230003/4/5 are diesel operated and for them to be brought back into service would probably require them to be upgraded to the same standard that TfW now have their units or converted to battery making use of all the work that GWR have done to date.

Remember that that all decisions are now being made by civil servants because GWR know that their contract will not be renewed so they are not going to incur capital expenditure without DfT funding.

 

[meld3]

Remember that that all decisions are now being made by civil servants

The newly created £5bn gov black hole will have to be filled from somewhere, and politically far more likely taken from transport projects than say NHS / Defence / Education / Social Security etc. I can't see any new Transport projects getting authorised for a while, much easier to kick the can down the road a bit longer, like the SE train replacement project.

 

[Invincible]

Remember that that all decisions are now being made by civil servants because GWR know that their contract will not be renewed so they are not going to incur capital expenditure without DfT funding.

Shadow GBR is currently being set up

West Midlands Combined Authority CEO Laura Shoaf steps down

Laura Shoaf will remain in post until 17 June, when deputy Ed Cox will step up as interim chief.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hope representations of the various TOC will be involved in the various tendering processes.