Any Permitted Tickets not valid on LNER from 2nd August???

[10-Car-Fan]

Any permitted tickets are not available to purchase on LNER trains from 2nd August. A couple of screenshots attached show them available on Hull Trains services (e.g. the £63.60 SSS at DON and the £73.80 CDR at GRA), but nothing for LNER.

Anyone got any ideas why? Is it a move to remove the Super-off-peak/Off-peak products and just have anytime/70-minute flex on the whole route, like Edinburgh/Newcastle, from August? But the Anytime Single is also not available in the screenshot for Doncaster. Strange?

 

[mikeg]

They've probably messed up the fake compulsory reservations system. GC did this a few months ago. My understanding is they'd have to accept it whether they like it or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNER offer booking further in advance than normal, but only Advance fares, no quotas are released for walk-ups*. This isn't a new thing. If you search for August on their app a pop-up appears explaining it.

The "trial" will I'm sure be rolled out more widely in due course having been declared a brilliant success, but I don't believe this is evidence of it (yet).

* All fares require a quota to be sold on LNER trains because of the fake compulsory reservations.

 

[Benjwri]

The "trial" will I'm sure be rolled out more widely in due course having been declared a brilliant success, but I don't believe this is evidence of it (yet).

Getting off topic but I haven’t seen such a claim, I understood it was a rather different story…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting off topic but I haven’t seen such a claim, I understood it was a rather different story…

Fairly recently (though I forget when) there was a Modern Railways article where David Horne sung its praises. But he would, I suppose.

 

[eastcoast77]

Oasis are playing in London on 2nd August, so LNER will be using reservation controls to avoid passengers booking flexible tickets to travel on already sold out services

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oasis are playing in London on 2nd August, so LNER will be using reservation controls to avoid passengers booking anytime tickets to travel on already sold out services

LNER have done this since COVID, it's nothing new.

 

[modernrail]

LNER offer booking further in advance than normal, but only Advance fares, no quotas are released for walk-ups*. This isn't a new thing. If you search for August on their app a pop-up appears explaining it.

The "trial" will I'm sure be rolled out more widely in due course having been declared a brilliant success, but I don't believe this is evidence of it (yet).

* All fares require a quota to be sold on LNER trains because of the fake compulsory reservations.

I didn’t realise that. So the railway literally aims to sell lower price tickets before opening up reservations to those who may be willing to pay more…. Whilst trying to raise revenue.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

I didn’t realise that. So the railway literally aims to sell lower price tickets before opening up reservations to those who may be willing to pay more…. Whilst trying to raise revenue.

Yes, but in quota controlled numbers based on forecast demand for that train - selling seats that wouldn't sell at the walk-up prices, thus raising revenue overall.

 

[modernrail]

Yes, but in quota controlled numbers based on forecast demand for that train - selling seats that wouldn't sell at the walk-up prices, thus raising revenue overall.

Why not also allow the off peak to be available?

As a side point I don’t trust LNER or any other companies quota setting. They forecast they need to sell those advance fares and then when it gets closer to the travel date the train is often too full for people to purchase a ticket. So how can they square forecasting needing to sell advances with their being so much demand for that train that they need to price people off?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not also allow the off peak to be available?

Because LNER like Advances.

But there isn't really any reason to buy a walk-up fare that early.

 

[modernrail]

There is. The terms and conditions of an off peak return are a lot more flexible.

There might be plenty of reasons why you want to book early but with off peak flexibility.

Because LNER like Advances.

But there isn't really any reason to buy a walk-up fare that early

 

[Starmill]

So how can they square forecasting needing to sell advances with their being so much demand for that train that they need to price people off?

Because they're not actually that bothered if the train is full or not. The objective is to raise revenue (to use the Departmental lingo sent to all DfTO companies, one of their biggest objectives is "net subsidy reduction").

 

[modernrail]

They are clearly not getting it right if they are over filling trains with cheaper advances and then turning away customers who are willing to pay the higher off peak fare (but probably not the higher trial simpler rip off advance fare or the anytime).

If the off peaks trains are as busy as they claim, their fancy machine should be telling them not to sell cheaper advances and sell at the minimum of the off peak fare instead.

Because they're not actually that bothered if the train is full or not. The objective is to raise revenue (to use the Departmental lingo sent to all DfTO companies, one of their biggest objectives is "net subsidy reduction").

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is. The terms and conditions of an off peak return are a lot more flexible.

There might be plenty of reasons why you want to book early but with off peak flexibility.

The only one I can think of is that you want a very specific seat (e.g. you're Mark Smith). But aside from that a month or so out when tickets go on general sale is plenty. No train will have all seats reserved that far out.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Why not also allow the off peak to be available?

As a side point I don’t trust LNER or any other companies quota setting. They forecast they need to sell those advance fares and then when it gets closer to the travel date the train is often too full for people to purchase a ticket. So how can they square forecasting needing to sell advances with their being so much demand for that train that they need to price people off?

I don't disagree - if a train is open for reservations it ought to available for all ticket types.

 

[modernrail]

The only one I can think of is that you want a very specific seat (e.g. you're Mark Smith). But aside from that a month or so out when tickets go on general sale is plenty. No train will have all seats reserved that far out.

There is no reason not to allow them to be bought when the window opens.

There are lots of reasons you might want to be sure you have a ticket. For instance if you are planning to go to an event in London or elsewhere and you are buying an expensive ticket for that and want to square up travel.

I have no way of knowing what LNER’s quotas are and when it might sell out, so why add the stress when it should be no skin off LNER’s nose to open the window to all ticket types at the same time.

Plus, those paying the more expensive fare should at least have the same opportunity of picking the seat they want. On an airline you pay more to pick your seat. On LNER, less.

Other than the Anytime nonsense fares on peak, I used to like LNER. I am coming to loathe them.

 

[Starmill]

The only one I can think of is that you want a very specific seat (e.g. you're Mark Smith). But aside from that a month or so out when tickets go on general sale is plenty. No train will have all seats reserved that far out.

It's supposed to be available when they receive an Informed Traveller offer, three months out, if they're on time. However it can be later, and is more likely to be later around engineering works or bank holidays and weekends.

 

[modernrail]

I actually think the cheaper seats should be getting the cheaper view. So the quota should be set to sell the seats with no view first, unless that service is historically never full.

 

[Starmill]

There is no reason not to allow them to be bought when the window opens.

There are lots of reasons you might want to be sure you have a ticket. For instance if you are planning to go to an event in London or elsewhere and you are buying an expensive ticket for that and want to square up travel.

I have no way of knowing what LNER’s quotas are and when it might sell out, so why add the stress when it should be no skin off LNER’s nose to open the window to all ticket types at the same time.

Plus, those paying the more expensive fare should at least have the same opportunity of picking the seat they want. On an airline you pay more to pick your seat. On LNER, less.

Other than the Anytime nonsense fares on peak, I used to like LNER. I am coming to loathe them.

This is no different to how Edinburgh - London passengers are always given first dibs on some tickets and Doncaster - Newark North Gate passengers on the same train must wait until they can reserve when they go on general sale.

Indeed that's exactly why Edinburgh - London tickets will so often go down slightly in price when they move from advance booking horizon to the informed traveller one on general sale, because if they let all the quota go up right at the start they'd never get any sales at all out of the journeys they don't make available in the advance booking horizon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

I actually think the cheaper seats should be getting the cheaper view. So the quota should be set to sell the seats with no view first, unless that service is historically never full.

Charging for a reservation with a higher charge for a seat with certain features is an idea in the background that has been around for a long time that never really goes away. Italo does this for example. It's not massively practical for the UK because people know they can just take a seat if the reservation holder doesn't show up or use one of the unreservable seats.

 

[modernrail]

This is no different to how Edinburgh - London passengers are always given first dibs on some tickets and Doncaster - Newark North Gate passengers on the same train must wait until they can reserve when they go on general sale.

Indeed that's exactly why Edinburgh - London tickets will so often go down slightly in price when they move from advance booking horizon to the informed traveller one on general sale, because if they let all the quota go up right at the start they'd never get any sales at all out of the journeys they don't make available in the advance booking horizon.

But why do the Edinburgh London passengers not get first dibs on any ticket type? (Ignore the stupid trial for the purposes of the point)

 

[Starmill]

But why do the Edinburgh London passengers not get first dibs on any ticket type? (Ignore the stupid trial for the purposes of the point)

You could get the ticket from a ticket office if you wanted to for some reason. You'd have to go back later and ask for a reservation though!

 

[modernrail]

You could get the ticket from a ticket office if you wanted to for some reason. You'd have to go back later and ask for a reservation though!

Highly unsatisfactory, like lots of things on LNER these days.

Next they will only allow more expensive tickets to sit over the bogies.

 

[35B]

I actually think the cheaper seats should be getting the cheaper view. So the quota should be set to sell the seats with no view first, unless that service is historically never full.

Different people put different weights on different features. I always try to sit at a table; my wife massively prefers airline seats. I like a window; my daughter couldn't give a stuff.

But why do the Edinburgh London passengers not get first dibs on any ticket type? (Ignore the stupid trial for the purposes of the point)

Because end to end travellers aren't the only valued demand. There is supposed to be a 12 week booking window, which needs to cover all travel permutations.

 

[redreni]

I didn’t realise that. So the railway literally aims to sell lower price tickets before opening up reservations to those who may be willing to pay more…. Whilst trying to raise revenue.

Can't have people buying flexible off-peak tickets.

It would undermine the (fallacious but still effective) argument in favour of abolishing flexible off-peak tickets, namely "nobody will mind because nobody buys them".

 

[modernrail]

Different people put different weights on different features. I always try to sit at a table; my wife massively prefers airline seats. I like a window; my daughter couldn't give a stuff.

Because end to end travellers aren't the only valued demand. There is supposed to be a 12 week booking window, which needs to cover all travel permutations.

That would be an argument to not give Edinburgh London tickets first dibs but Starmill is saying they do.

I don’t really think anybody should get first dibs on any flow. I am only saying that if there must be any first dibs it should be restricted to only exclude those for journeys that can easily be done on another operator.

All permutations would include those who want to buy a flexible ticket being able to do so.

 

[Haywain]

That would be an argument to not give Edinburgh London tickets first dibs but Starmill is saying they do.

In this, I believe Starmill is wrong unless I have misunderstood. The advanced booking horizon at 24 weeks (ish) opens bookings for Advance tickets for all 'LNER only' journeys.

 

[Wallsendmag]

In this, I believe Starmill is wrong unless I have misunderstood. The advanced booking horizon at 24 weeks (ish) opens bookings for Advance tickets for all 'LNER only' journeys.

Correct and the case of being Advance only goes way back to at least 2014 when I began my involvement in the process of the extended horizon.

 

[Sleepy]

Because LNER like Advances.

But there isn't really any reason to buy a walk-up fare that early.

and dft love Advances.

 

[yorkie]

I don't disagree - if a train is open for reservations it ought to available for all ticket types.

LNER are very keen for passengers to get Advance fares, especially more expensive through fares (no splitting) and from their website.

The idea that someone may get flexible fares and/or cheaper splits and/or buy through our ticketing site seems to horrify them.

Hence, their advertising campaign (at taxpayers expense) aimed at misleading people into using their site instead of sites such as ours.

This airline-style pricing is how the DfT and people like the (now disgraced) Peter Hendy want all TOCs to be run