EMR Regional and Connect refurbishments

[Jacob Porrett]

501 & 503

Thank you.

 

[Trainman40083]

170501 seemed very smart the other day

 

[Snow1964]

EMR has announced a presentation in Nottingham on 24th July of first refurbished 158.

EMR would like to invite members of the media to a special event at Nottingham Railway Station to celebrate the launch of EMR’s first refurbished Class 158 train,

This unveiling marks another major milestone in EMR’s £60 million programme to upgrade its Regional and Connect fleets.

The Class 158 fleet, which mainly operates on the Liverpool to Norwich route via Nottingham, Manchester and Sheffield, will see a £5.2 million interior refresh.

Event Details
Date: Thursday 24 July
Time: 10:00 – 11:15
Location: Platform 7, Nottingham Railway Station

Join senior representatives from EMR and Angel Trains as they unveil the newly refurbished Unit 158847 and provide insights into the investment and improvements being delivered for EMR customers

Media Invite: First refurbished Class 158 train unveiled as part of £60 million investment to modernise EMR’s Regional fleet | East Midlands Railway News

News from East Midlands Railway

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Confusingly it uses terms refurbished, and interior refreshed so not 100% clear what is correct terminology, either way it is PR speak for tarting up a 34 year old train

 

[MML]

If only the media would interrogate these PR merchants and ask why they are still failing to fulfil a promised franchise commitment to provide 12-car units on the peak Corby service, why despite having 21 x class 360 units and requiring only 12 to run an 8-car service, Corby services are frequently short formed, why are the class 360 interiors so filthy with smelly carpets and broken air conditioning, why are the 4-car class 158 units providing inadequate seating capacity on the Liverpool to Norwich route with services on the core route full.

 

[transportphoto]

fulfil a promised franchise commitment

Franchise commitments went out the window quite some time back - DFT pull the puppet strings on pretty much everything now.

 

[Killingworth]

If only the media would interrogate these PR merchants and ask why they are still failing to fulfil a promised franchise commitment to provide 12-car units on the peak Corby service, why despite having 21 x class 360 units and requiring only 12 to run an 8-car service, Corby services are frequently short formed, why are the class 360 interiors so filthy with smelly carpets and broken air conditioning, why are the 4-car class 158 units providing inadequate seating capacity on the Liverpool to Norwich route with services on the core route full.

Those old 158s on the challenging Liverpool - Norwich route are doing very well and ridership is increasing. The days when 156s and 153s were regularly substituted to make 4 car trains are long gone but 2 car 158 or 170 trains are still appearing too often. It's good to see 6 coach 170s at times.

 

[fgwrich]

If only the media would interrogate these PR merchants and ask why they are still failing to fulfil a promised franchise commitment to provide 12-car units on the peak Corby service, why despite having 21 x class 360 units and requiring only 12 to run an 8-car service, Corby services are frequently short formed, why are the class 360 interiors so filthy with smelly carpets and broken air conditioning, why are the 4-car class 158 units providing inadequate seating capacity on the Liverpool to Norwich route with services on the core route full.

Franchise commitments went out the window quite some time back - DFT pull the puppet strings on pretty much everything now.

Bingo.

Ask the DfT. EMR can only do what the Department tells them to do, with the finances provided to them. Yes, the 360 situation is frustrating, and should have been dealt with jointly by Angel / EMR / Siemens years ago, but with the railways at the mercy of the treasury now, if they say no to the investment required then that’s what now has to go.

 

[Aspen90]

If only the media would interrogate these PR merchants and ask why they are still failing to fulfil a promised franchise commitment to provide 12-car units on the peak Corby service, why despite having 21 x class 360 units and requiring only 12 to run an 8-car service, Corby services are frequently short formed, why are the class 360 interiors so filthy with smelly carpets and broken air conditioning, why are the 4-car class 158 units providing inadequate seating capacity on the Liverpool to Norwich route with services on the core route full.

The maintenance is awful! You key in and there’s always a list of HVAC faults, this is now ‘normal’ and nothing gets done. Siemens don’t fix them, HVAC is just a ‘normal fault’ that’s not even recorded anymore. Regularly have a TCU (traction control unit) isolated meaning 75% power, slow, and that they’re multi only so can’t be uncoupled. Then if there’s coupler faults it’s non multi only. Can take weeks to get these sorted too. The wiper blades are crap and don’t clear the windscreen very well at all, some barely touch the glass. Regular VCB (vacuum circuit breaker) issues meaning that you end up stopping at some station we don’t stop at to kick people off and then it needs dragging to a depot or Siemens to get to it. The door and window seals in the cab are knackered so much so the wind noise is now at anything between 80dB to over 90dB and you struggle to hear the DSD so you have to drive at a maximum of 85mph so you can actually hear the safety systems! Toilets regularly locked out of use, so need to be coupled to another unit to run a service. There’s usually a handful at Bedford Siemens, one or two at Kings Heath, and one or two with faults at either Kettering or Cricklewood, so this is why they can’t run 12 cars, there aren’t enough working sets to run regular 12 car services. Also the TM’s agreed to sign 12 cars but I don’t believe drivers did as this goes in to how many safety critical people are on board etc but that’s another story. Then there’s the mileage limits - that’s why Sundays are 4 car services so the mileage is kept to a minimum on other sets. PIS screens seem to regularly fail on them too which form part of the accessibility and inclusion rules.

 

[tfw756rider]

The maintenance is awful! You key in and there’s always a list of HVAC faults, this is now ‘normal’ and nothing gets done. Siemens don’t fix them, HVAC is just a ‘normal fault’ that’s not even recorded anymore. Regularly have a TCU (traction control unit) isolated meaning 75% power, slow, and that they’re multi only so can’t be uncoupled. Then if there’s coupler faults it’s non multi only. Can take weeks to get these sorted too. The wiper blades are crap and don’t clear the windscreen very well at all, some barely touch the glass. Regular VCB (vacuum circuit breaker) issues meaning that you end up stopping at some station we don’t stop at to kick people off and then it needs dragging to a depot or Siemens to get to it. The door and window seals in the cab are knackered so much so the wind noise is now at anything between 80dB to over 90dB and you struggle to hear the DSD so you have to drive at a maximum of 85mph so you can actually hear the safety systems! Toilets regularly locked out of use, so need to be coupled to another unit to run a service. There’s usually a handful at Bedford Siemens, one or two at Kings Heath, and one or two with faults at either Kettering or Cricklewood, so this is why they can’t run 12 cars, there aren’t enough working sets to run regular 12 car services. Also the TM’s agreed to sign 12 cars but I don’t believe drivers did as this goes in to how many safety critical people are on board etc but that’s another story. Then there’s the mileage limits - that’s why Sundays are 4 car services so the mileage is kept to a minimum on other sets. PIS screens seem to regularly fail on them too which form part of the accessibility and inclusion rules.

This sounds shocking, something has got to be done about it.

 

[Trainman40083]

People often mention the 4 car Class 158s are too small for the Liverpool to Nottingham service. I'm not sure what they would like to see. A four car 158 has more seats than a four car 170. Any train longer is too long for several of the station calls Maybe an extra fast train only calling at half the stations. But if the DfT says NO, nothing will change. NOTHING. People wanted nationalisation. This is what you get.

 

[dk1]

People often mention the 4 car Class 158s are too small for the Liverpool to Nottingham service. I'm not sure what they would like to see. A four car 158 has more seats than a four car 170. Any train longer is too long for several of the station calls Maybe an extra fast train only calling at half the stations. But if the DfT says NO, nothing will change. NOTHING. People wanted nationalisation. This is what you get.

Not a lot has changed with the route and I doubt would have either. EMR didn’t have any plans for a replacement in their franchise. Just the use of 3-car 170s on some services. The 09:51 ex-Liverpool is booked six cars to Nottingham.

 

[Trainman40083]

Not a lot has changed with the route and I doubt would have either. EMR didn’t have any plans for a replacement in their franchise. Just the use of 3-car 170s on some services. The 09:51 ex-Liverpool is booked six cars to Nottingham.

Wasn't the original DfT plan to have the service worked by another operator? Can that 09.51 ex Liverpool and the earlier working from Nottingham call at all stations? (It would have to have SDO).....

 

[MCR247]

Wasn't the original DfT plan to have the service worked by another operator? Can that 09.51 ex Liverpool and the earlier working from Nottingham call at all stations? (It would have to have SDO).....

The 170s have SDO

 

[Killingworth]

The 170s have SDO

And can, and do, regularly operate in 5 and 6 car configurations between Nottingham and Liverpool.

 

[Trainman40083]

The 170s have SDO

Do the Class 158s?

 

[tram21]

Do the Class 158s?

No

 

[dk1]

Wasn't the original DfT plan to have the service worked by another operator? Can that 09.51 ex Liverpool and the earlier working from Nottingham call at all stations? (It would have to have SDO).....

No plans were ever finalised about transferring operations or splitting the route.

 

[Trainman40083]

No plans were ever finalised about transferring operations or splitting the route.

I think it got put into the "too difficult pile".. It could have seen units transferred to other TOCs that had no other units of that type. Been great for 68s and coaches, but Chiltern will get that.

 

[dk1]

I think it got put into the "too difficult pile".. It could have seen units transferred to other TOCs that had no other units of that type. Been great for 68s and coaches, but Chiltern will get that.

It’s a very complex route and one that has never be properly looked at or had the investment it deserves since its inception back in 1988. Even when EMT started in 2007 its unit allocation from Central Trains was woefully low leading Stagecoach to hire in additional 158s from sister TOC SWT. I don’t see much changing for the foreseeable future.

 

[LowLevel]

Suggestion is there will be more 3 car 170s booked to head east from December with more 158s providing a seating increase on local services.

 

[dk1]

Suggestion is there will be more 3 car 170s booked to head east from December with more 158s providing a seating increase on local services.

That would be extremely welcome here in East Anglia. Not sure if it’s anything to do with the good value advance fares now available but trains departing Norwich seem busier than ever even during the afternoon.

 

[driverd]

Bingo.

Ask the DfT. EMR can only do what the Department tells them to do, with the finances provided to them. Yes, the 360 situation is frustrating, and should have been dealt with jointly by Angel / EMR / Siemens years ago, but with the railways at the mercy of the treasury now, if they say no to the investment required then that’s what now has to go.

With the logical follow up question being, "In that case, why is the taxpayer spending money on employing you lot to run the show?"....

 

[Trainman40083]

With the logical follow up question being, "In that case, why is the taxpayer spending money on employing you lot to run the show?"....

Well, when the DfT has no better ideas, you get someone to take all the flack. Given the small markup they do get, I am surprised they do...

 

[driverd]

The maintenance is awful! You key in and there’s always a list of HVAC faults, this is now ‘normal’ and nothing gets done. Siemens don’t fix them, HVAC is just a ‘normal fault’ that’s not even recorded anymore. Regularly have a TCU (traction control unit) isolated meaning 75% power, slow, and that they’re multi only so can’t be uncoupled. Then if there’s coupler faults it’s non multi only. Can take weeks to get these sorted too. The wiper blades are crap and don’t clear the windscreen very well at all, some barely touch the glass. Regular VCB (vacuum circuit breaker) issues meaning that you end up stopping at some station we don’t stop at to kick people off and then it needs dragging to a depot or Siemens to get to it. The door and window seals in the cab are knackered so much so the wind noise is now at anything between 80dB to over 90dB and you struggle to hear the DSD so you have to drive at a maximum of 85mph so you can actually hear the safety systems! Toilets regularly locked out of use, so need to be coupled to another unit to run a service. There’s usually a handful at Bedford Siemens, one or two at Kings Heath, and one or two with faults at either Kettering or Cricklewood, so this is why they can’t run 12 cars, there aren’t enough working sets to run regular 12 car services. Also the TM’s agreed to sign 12 cars but I don’t believe drivers did as this goes in to how many safety critical people are on board etc but that’s another story. Then there’s the mileage limits - that’s why Sundays are 4 car services so the mileage is kept to a minimum on other sets. PIS screens seem to regularly fail on them too which form part of the accessibility and inclusion rules.

And in spite of all this, you'll still get a solid 40% or so of users telling you how Siemens trains are the greatest ever made, far comfier than anything else and always work in their experience.

Joking aside, it's a shambles that a fleet can be allowed to get into this state of disrepair. It does strike me though, that EMR seem to be a unique case with just how woeful their operation is, even compared to the historic punch bags like Northern and GTR. Do you feel this is more an internal management collapse or have the DfT tied the hands too much?

Well, when the DfT has no better ideas, you get someone to take all the flack. Given the small markup they do get, I am surprised they do...

Quite a fair comment to be honest!

 

[Trainman40083]

And in spite of all this, you'll still get a solid 40% or so of users telling you how Siemens trains are the greatest ever made, far comfier than anything else and always work in their experience.

Joking aside, it's a shambles that a fleet can be allowed to get into this state of disrepair. It does strike me though, that EMR seem to be a unique case with just how woeful their operation is, even compared to the historic punch bags like Northern and GTR. Do you feel this is more an internal management collapse or have the DfT tied the hands too much?



Quite a fair comment to be honest!

EMR? You want a new paperclip? Mend an old one to save money. The cost of so doing? Not out problem

 

[Aspen90]

And in spite of all this, you'll still get a solid 40% or so of users telling you how Siemens trains are the greatest ever made, far comfier than anything else and always work in their experience.

Joking aside, it's a shambles that a fleet can be allowed to get into this state of disrepair. It does strike me though, that EMR seem to be a unique case with just how woeful their operation is, even compared to the historic punch bags like Northern and GTR. Do you feel this is more an internal management collapse or have the DfT tied the hands too much?



Quite a fair comment to be honest!

It’s a mixture of Siemens not being bothered with the 360’s, they’ve got their hands full with the 700’s as they’re the nice new ones. Ours are knackered old stock. Then with them being kept at Kettering and Cricklewood they’re out of sight of the centre of the universe (Derby) so I don’t think the management really know how bad they are. Kettering being a sidings and not a maintenance depot means they can get away with a lot rules wise with regards to leaving for service with defective equipment. I just hope with GBR being based in Derby we will have a lot of DfT bigwigs using them and realising what a mess they are.

 

[vuzzeho]

It’s a mixture of Siemens not being bothered with the 360’s, they’ve got their hands full with the 700’s as they’re the nice new ones. Ours are knackered old stock.

(in my opinion) The 350s are pretty nice and they're older. Why is this a 360 issue? Unless there's something I don't know about 350s.

 

[ls2270]

(in my opinion) The 350s are pretty nice and they're older. Why is this a 360 issue? Unless there's something I don't know about 350s.

No, it’s the 360s that are older. They entered service in 2003, the 350s in 2005.

 

[tfw756rider]

Wasn't the original DfT plan to have the service worked by another operator?

Yes, that's why some of the 158s are in the "outgoing" livery. Now that they've had to keep them (along with the service), they've started to be painted into the "permanent" purple livery like the 170s and the 360s, starting with 158847.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

No, it’s the 360s that are older. They entered service in 2003, the 350s in 2005.

Exactly (but I can see how that could get mixed up due to the numbering).

 

[Kite159]

And I guess it doesn't help things that for anything heavy duty the 360s need to be dragged to Siemens in Northampton as they can't reach there under their own power due to gaps in overhead wires.