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Arriva (Beds, Bucks, Herts)

Dwarfer1979

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This has been going on far longer than the 'current political environment' though. As it say, it dates back around 10 years when comparing in my own area.

I agree with your other comments though.
I would say the current political environment has been developing for over a decade, it isn't a recent development just one that has got stronger over the years, it has been building for a long time and it certainly reached its current anti level prior to COVID so operators will have been aware of it as a concern for a while before that.
 
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Deerfold

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All in all . . . please don't forget that Arriva Kent Thameside are still the commercial operator in the area, and until (if-when) they leave, Herts CC are somewhat restricted . . . they cannot "force" Arriva KT to make changes, only suggest and propose. If only Arriva Midlands were in charge . . . !!
I'm not sure they're much better.
I've family served by them. Their service compared with pre-COVID has gone from 8 bph to 4 bph (but unreliably so, I've waited more than half an hour for a bus more than once) and more importantly the last bus is 60 minutes earlier (3 hours earlier on a Sunday, with evening and Sunday frequency going from 4 bph to 1 bus every 40 minutes).
 

Simon75

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As a local (to Watford) I would always lay a large chunk of the blame for the terrible bus services (both network and operationally) at the door of Arriva . . . but that's not the only reason.

The local council structure is that Watford Borough is almost totally surrounded by Three Rivers District, and on the remaining side by Hertsmere Borough . . . sometimes only two miles from the centre of Watford. All three councils have different attitudes to bus transport, and Herts CC haven't been able to broker any sort of agreement between them (not that they've tried especially hard).

Additionally, the London Buses influence shouldn't be under-estimated. Although only one corridor with two routes, the cheap fares (and free for kids) since 2005-ish have influenced local attitudes ("if Bushey can have it, then why can't we"), such that locals won't even contemplate using the bus, even if it is actually convenient!

The fiasco that was Arriva Click, where Watford Borough spaffed something between £2.5m and £4m (depending which Watford Observer article is consulted) on a DRT operation that was restricted to Watford residents only, so residents of Croxley, South Oxhey and North Bushey were denied usage . . . and starting it in July 2020, when social distancing was still all the rage . . . bound to fail. I've calculated that another 10-12 PVR could have been funded on regular bus routes for two years with that money . . . and that would've done wonders for frequencies. Running a bus every 10 minutes between Holywell and the Junction? Bound to succeed!!

As far as competition is concerned . . . the last time was in 2007-2009, when Metroline had a go from a local base hard by Junction 6. Two routes were operated at 2 BPH, with a third ready to go, but regrettably Metroline took fright at the escalating losses and pulled the plug at short notice. Since then, only Mullany's Coaches has had a try (ut only in a limited way) . . . although their (Irish) parent company, again, couldn't see that slow progress was being made, and stepped back. There is only Uno left locally, and they only have a minority presence in the area.

What is probably needed is a minibus revolution in the town . . . coupled with a huge escalation in parking charges (classic stick and carrot). Is there anyone brave enough? No . . . not nearly . . . so the deterioration will continue. I honestly can't see Arriva remaining much longer . . . perhaps the answer is actually for them to withdraw, which will force Herts CC to do something substantial.

As far as Route 724 is concerned . . . with the revision to Route 725, I quite like the idea of running direct between Hertford and Hatfield, although 724 does perform a local function on the east side of WGC (I'm sure that 323/324 can be tweaked to cover). It would lose the link between Harlow and WGC of course . . . but whether that's important enough to worry about isn't known. Maple Cross? There is a contracted R1/R2 that might be tweaked in the longer term.

All in all . . . please don't forget that Arriva Kent Thameside are still the commercial operator in the area, and until (if-when) they leave, Herts CC are somewhat restricted . . . they cannot "force" Arriva KT to make changes, only suggest and propose. If only Arriva Midlands were in charge . . . !!
Did the closure of the Garston garage make a difference to services in the area?
 

Foxhound87

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Earth
So they’re running a timetable that’s matched to demand and not running at a loss or with lots of public subsidy?

A 15 minute frequency sounds fairly decent tbh.
 

Deerfold

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So they’re running a timetable that’s matched to demand and not running at a loss or with lots of public subsidy?

A 15 minute frequency sounds fairly decent tbh.
Is that reply to me?

If they could actually run it, it might be.
When it was 8 bph a missed or late bus wasn't a big problem and the service was generally busy.

And, as I mentioned, the bigger problem is the 75% reduction in evening and Sunday services and complete withdrawal of the Sunday evening service.

For a major city suburb that's quite a loss.
 

greenline712

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Inside the M25
Did the closure of the Garston garage make a difference to services in the area?
Pretty big, yes. Arriva tried to interwork two main road routes [10 & 20] together, which required a 5:20 rounder HH - HH, and with only 15 minutes stand/recovery time in that spell.
Late running throughout the day was endemic, with seemingly no effort to mitigate any delays.
Running time was flat 0700-1800, with no allowance for peak hour traffic.
It was necessary to bring drivers empty from HH to WJ for reliefs ... more expense.
It could almost be said that 2 years of that wrecked passenger confidence, with the network, such as it was, never recovering.
The drivers, many of whom were ex GR drivers, became more and more demoralised ... several openly admitting they were simply hanging on for retirement.

If Arriva had admitted their error, and put an extra bus in the cycle to improve reliability, things might have been rescued .... but no, it wasn't to be.

It will need a herculean effort from Arriva now .... but that won't happen. Hopefully not long before they do a Wycombe or Aylesbury or Guildford, and simply walk away.
 

SSmith2009

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20 Dec 2021
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East Midlands
I'm not sure they're much better.
I've family served by them. Their service compared with pre-COVID has gone from 8 bph to 4 bph (but unreliably so, I've waited more than half an hour for a bus more than once) and more importantly the last bus is 60 minutes earlier (3 hours earlier on a Sunday, with evening and Sunday frequency going from 4 bph to 1 bus every 40 minutes).
That's got to be Oadby with all the constant changing of the 31/31A/31E.

Arriva's south Leicestershire network (apart from the 47/48) has been trimmed right back to the bare bones since South Wigston depot shut and everything moved to Thurmaston.
 

aron2smith

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Is that reply to me?

If they could actually run it, it might be.
When it was 8 bph a missed or late bus wasn't a big problem and the service was generally busy.

And, as I mentioned, the bigger problem is the 75% reduction in evening and Sunday services and complete withdrawal of the Sunday evening service.

For a major city suburb that's quite a loss.
This is the exact problem in Cheshunt where I live. Arriva runs 2 routes here, one is every 15 minutes daytime but drops to just hourly in the evenings, the other is every 20 minutes but then the services on this route completely stop after 7:30pm! The other routes in the area has stop at this time! So one part of town has limited buses late evening and the other part has nothing. The neighbouring town, Waltham Abbey is the same, very little after 7:30pm. With regular trains stopping here till midnight and the Central and Piccadilly Lines only 5 to 6 miles away too and all the TFL buses terminating at Waltham Cross, it is frustrating to me! We could be a gateway area to London but the buses make that so limited! With the current bus offering, it's no wonder there is no night time economy. The severance between Cheshunt and Greater London in terms of bus services has really hurt the area, if it was planned properly TFL would terminate in Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey instead.

Also, really doesn't help when the buses are regularly late, the services fall apart completely with the right set of roadworks or an accident on the M25 or the A10! There would be less cars here if we got a proper and comprehensive bus service at all times of day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Even based on the passenger numbers being there, the bus industry in the past 10 years or so has really tried to cut back on the amount of on the road competition and instead everyone just sits around singing Kumbaya and hoping that the incumbent takes the relevant action to improve themsevles, and when they don't, slowly the incumbent runs things down, says things aren't viable, withdraws the route. By that time passenger numbers are so low that it's not really worth someone taking over, so it ends up as a tender.
I wonder if this is what happened to Harlow to an extent? Arriva was the dominant operator for decades there but Central Connect (Vectare) is taking over more and more in recent years. Evenings and Sundays, Arriva no longer run any of the town services, all Central Connect and the 407/ 417 contracted to First. Arriva only seem to run the 724 and 508/9/10 on Sundays and that's it! First even run some of the journeys to Chelmsford as well. Arriva definitely seem on the retreat here, now huge parts of Harlow have limited buses and links from Harlow to Chingford and Romford are long gone!

Once it's gone, it's hard to rebuild, which is why it was interesting to see Arriva promoting £1.90 short journey fares on its buses in Harlow yesterday. Even saw a billboard promoting it in Bishop's Stortford! Personally I think Harlow and towns of that size need cheap towns fares that are valid on everything, especially as most routes go to the town and a change of bus is required to go to the rail station for most, everyone having their own tickets not valid elsewhere does no good for bus ridership either!
 
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markymark2000

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Also, really doesn't help when the buses are regularly late, the services fall apart completely with the right set of roadworks or an accident on the M25 or the A10! There would be less cars here if we got a proper and comprehensive bus service at all times of day.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but running more buses around Cheshunt, will not solve issues with either roadworks/accidents on the M25/A10, nor will it reduce the effects of said M25/A10 roadworks or accidents. People using these routes, especially on the M25, are using many many different, generally longer distance routes and journey plans so improving local buses will do nothing. A family of the Jones from Manchester to Kent are not going to see the roadworks on the M25, jump off and think 'Why don't we get the bus the rest of the way'. Whenever any motorway goes down, traffic disperses onto the local road network and cripples bus services.
 

greenline712

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I hate to be the one to break this to you, but running more buses around Cheshunt, will not solve issues with either roadworks/accidents on the M25/A10, nor will it reduce the effects of said M25/A10 roadworks or accidents. People using these routes, especially on the M25, are using many many different, generally longer distance routes and journey plans so improving local buses will do nothing. A family of the Jones from Manchester to Kent are not going to see the roadworks on the M25, jump off and think 'Why don't we get the bus the rest of the way'. Whenever any motorway goes down, traffic disperses onto the local road network and cripples bus services.

Exactly this!! The M25, as (I suspect) are the motorways around Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow and so on, is used not only for long-distance journeys, but also for "junction-hoppers", those who use the motorway for just one or two junctions because the local roads are too busy or too indirect. These motorists will be well aware of alternative routes locally, and will use them. Local bus routes will be destroyed every time the motorway is disrupted.

The only real solution is to schedule extra "recovery" time at the ends of local bus routes, in the hope that buses will, at least, commence their next journeys on time. However, that will come at a cost, sometimes substantial. Let's look at Arriva's Route 251 which runs across Waltham Cross . . . here is a pdf from the Intalink site:
The route uses 5 buses, and has 8 minutes layover at each end of the route . . . extra time is allowed during the peaks. This recovery time is adequate under normal circumstances, but not when the M25 goes "bang". To add extra recovery time would require an extra bus, which would increase the cost of operation by around 20% for very little increase in income {yes, I know that guaranteed reliability of operation should increase patronage . . . but by 20%? Most unlikely}.

There is also the option of increasing running time, but this has the disadvantage of delaying passenger journeys when there is no need. Another local example: Route 84, when operated by Metroline, was the subject of a concerted campaign from a few local residents in Potters Bar over unreliability. Eventually the company was called to a Public Inquiry, which resulted in no action being taken because Metroline had already increased running times by around 10%-15% to try to mitigate M25 traffic delays. Unfortunately, these increases resulted in such extended journey times that passengers no longer used the route . . . to try to balance income versus cost, Metroline cut the route back from Barnet, reduced the frequency (from 4 BPH to 2 BPH) and finally walked away altogether.

Sometimes there simply is no good answer . . . frankly, if there were, operators would have tried it by now!! I'm sure that others will have similar local examples . . .
 

markymark2000

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Sometimes there simply is no good answer . . . frankly, if there were, operators would have tried it by now!! I'm sure that others will have similar local examples . . .
IF we want to be pedantic, there are good answers. They just aren't in the control of the bus operators. 24/7 bus priority lanes work no matter whether the motorway is closed or open, the bus flies past the traffic. Sadly... Politics.
 

aron2smith

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I hate to be the one to break this to you, but running more buses around Cheshunt, will not solve issues with either roadworks/accidents on the M25/A10, nor will it reduce the effects of said M25/A10 roadworks or accidents. People using these routes, especially on the M25, are using many many different, generally longer distance routes and journey plans so improving local buses will do nothing. A family of the Jones from Manchester to Kent are not going to see the roadworks on the M25, jump off and think 'Why don't we get the bus the rest of the way'. Whenever any motorway goes down, traffic disperses onto the local road network and cripples bus services.
Creating an attractive service would mean less local journeys taken by car though. The bulk of traffic is people going up to 3 miles, a distance a bus or cycling can cover very easily if funded properly and priortised. It may be unprofitable but I would have way confidence in the routes if they ran every 10 to 12 minutes 7am to 7pm, with something every 30 minutes till midnight, at minimum. I always think twice at using the 251 or 310 because of the current frequencies and lack of alternative frequent routes (Bus stops are rubbish places to wait compared to rail stations!) At every 10 to 12 minutes, it wouldn't even matter if it was on time, especially on a section with 2 or more routes. This is why TFL works and former country areas struggle so much now. HCC and other counties cut way too many routes.

Other thing locally is Waltham Cross is such an unfit for purpose terminus, cramped and generally an unpleasant environment. Also the county borders here sever so many bus journeys that should be direct (Enfield to Cheshunt or Waltham Abbey, Waltham Cross to Walthamstow via Waltham Abbey) but aren't because of some arbitrary line drawn 100s of years and bears no resemblance to our built up area today. It is so bad for the wider area.

Yes local buses are no good for people travelling cross-country but surely making even a small minority who live and are travelling locally think of using alternatives has to be a good thing. Roadworks weren't a problem until everyone was made to think a car was essential, but roadworks need to be coordinated! Running only buses that make a profit has no chance of encouraging modal shift.
 

Railguy1

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I used my freedom pass on a non tfl bus the other day for the first time. It was a red eagle 352 I believe. I showed the driver my pass but he asked me to tap, which worked. My only issue was actually finding the bus stop on Watford high street, as I got a bit lost, despite using Citymapper.
 

SteveHFC

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23 of the new Volvo Evoras are now showing as being in service from Luton on bustimes.
 

gka472l

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Seven more to arrive, wouldn't be surprised if our short ones start to head up to Bootle shortly.

From a post on the Arriva Merseyside, NW & Wales FB group today, 6 have indeed arrived in Merseyside today, expected to enter service from Bootle next week some time.....LF71DMU & LF71DLK are two of them.

HTH
 

darylyates17

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From a post on the Arriva Merseyside, NW & Wales FB group today, 6 have indeed arrived in Merseyside today, expected to enter service from Bootle next week some time.....LF71DMU & LF71DLK are two of them.

HTH
Other 3 are at Green Lane due to Bootle having no space should move over once Pulsars get freed up.
 

RELL6L

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Citaro 3010, formerly of this parish, is in service, not as a trainer, at Tunbridge Wells. BusTimes also shows 3014 here but not in service. All the other ones are trainers distributed around the empire.

Meanwhile there are some upcoming changes on the Intalink website (link on Uno thread). These include the 323 and 395 being combined every 30 minutes and the 321 increasing to every 15 minutes. No mention of any changes to 721, 724 or 725 so potentially 6bph on most sections. Seems a total contrast to the increasing cuts in Hemel and Watford!
 

duncombec

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Citaro 3010, formerly of this parish, is in service, not as a trainer, at Tunbridge Wells. BusTimes also shows 3014 here but not in service. All the other ones are trainers distributed around the empire.
I am reliably informed 3014 had a mechanical tantrum whilst being prepped for service, so it may be a while before it appears.

Volvo/ALX 6449, which was at Luton, has returned to Kent and been repainted into journeymark, expected at TW, allegedly to replace Volvo/Gemini 6127.
 

espicer

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Volvo/ALX 6449, which was at Luton, has returned to Kent and been repainted into journeymark, expected at TW, allegedly to replace Volvo/Gemini 6127.
This is correct, it was painted in Gillingham and given a new top-deck window after being smashed in Luton, and will enter at Tunbridge Wells replacing 6127, that's been confirmed.
 

greenline712

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Citaro 3010, formerly of this parish, is in service, not as a trainer, at Tunbridge Wells. BusTimes also shows 3014 here but not in service. All the other ones are trainers distributed around the empire.

Meanwhile there are some upcoming changes on the Intalink website (link on Uno thread). These include the 323 and 395 being combined every 30 minutes and the 321 increasing to every 15 minutes. No mention of any changes to 721, 724 or 725 so potentially 6bph on most sections. Seems a total contrast to the increasing cuts in Hemel and Watford!
Different Arriva ... Hemel and Watford is Kent Thameside; Luton is Midlands. One actually knows about how to increase bus patronage, one doesn't. I'll leave readers to work out which is which!!
 

aron2smith

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310 becoming every 30 minutes on Sundays during shop open hours from 31st August, finally some good news. Would be awesome if they would do this for late evenings too! The transition from every 15 minutes to hourly after just 19:40 at Waltham Cross, Monday to Friday is brutal!
 

RELL6L

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I am reliably informed 3014 had a mechanical tantrum whilst being prepped for service, so it may be a while before it appears.
3014 is the only one I saw being towed twice in its days at Wycombe, but it was never off the road for long.

Different Arriva ... Hemel and Watford is Kent Thameside; Luton is Midlands. One actually knows about how to increase bus patronage, one doesn't. I'll leave readers to work out which is which!!

Quite so, but another 8 PVR on the 321 is quite a commitment. The deckers seem to be on the 1 mostly now instead of the 321. Perhaps they don’t want to let them get too far away!
 

Voyager 2953

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I am told that more former Aylesbury and Wycombe Citaros are due to enter service in the South. 3020 is another one being prepped.

The X1 is apparently moving from
Milton Keynes to Luton come September and a whole host of changes are expected.
 

espicer

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Coaches without self-reclining seats, perhaps?
Reliable coaches, perhaps!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The deckers seem to be on the 1 mostly now instead of the 321. Perhaps they don’t want to let them get too far away!
The 1 does not need deckers in my opinion, although Arriva say it does. Every time it goes past my work the deckers are always empty and this is at peak evening rush hour times! They definitely are better on the 321 for the capacity but St Albans always seems to curse the 321 as practically every decker Luton has or had on the 321 has broken down there at least once before!
 
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