Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Bikeman78]

The thing is, AC on the 345s seems fine to me, but it doesn’t on the 701s. So they cannot be set to the same temperature, or one is more sensitive than the other. 701s have unusually ineffective AC compared to other Aventras.

I remember going on a 345 from Paddington to Liverpool Street on the last day of the 317s. It was roasting outside but far too cold on the train. I couldn't wait to get off. By comparison, I went on a few 345s last summer in a heatwave and they seemed fine. Much cooler than outside but not stone cold.

 

[Nimbus020]

This thread is currently on 462 pages. What's the betting it will reach 701 pages before all units enter service?!

Good point!!- reminded me to ask what's the (rough) plan for the 5-car 701s? - apologies in advance if this has already been covered (somewhere on the preceding 462 pages!)

 

[Meglos]

Good point!!- reminded me to ask what's the (rough) plan for the 5-car 701s? - apologies in advance if this has already been covered (somewhere on the preceding 462 pages!)

Once the 10 car units are all in service, then they'll be commissioned. At this point they are excess stock, as they were ordered pre-covid when they were running more services than now, and further expansion was planned.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Once the 10 car units are all in service, then they'll be commissioned. At this point they are excess stock, as they were ordered pre-covid when they were running more services than now, and further expansion was planned.

The 701 stock plan was designed/precured to replace the entire SW area suburban area with a single type of unit. Very good idea to me, before anyone slags me off! The 10 car plan as was in place under SWT was maxed out as far as could be achieved both financially (under DfT) and physically location constraint wise (ie; berthing capacity) at all relevant locations to the suburban area, including a host of siding lengthening's brought in to play in SWT days under my watch, but this was not sufficient to increase ALL suburban services to 10 car. It may have been partly a financial decision (?), but from a stock stabling capacity, the 10 car plan introduced under SWT was the maximum that could be accommodated on the network at that time (2014 ish).

The addition of 10 x 10 car roads at Feltham goes some way to providing additional 10 car capacity, but it still does NOT provide enough additional capacity to allow ALL suburban services to run as fixed 10 car trains day in, day out. Take that from me, it is not enough capacity.

And from an operational POV, on a daily basis, splitting 10 cars in to 2 x 5 cars (simply to stable in sub 10 car length sidings each night) and reform a few hours later for the next days start up, is in the land of fairies! It would never work. To give some perspective to that comment, departures from Wimbledon depot (and Clapham Yard also) for the a.m peak have long since been at their maximum, time interval wise, in so far as there are NO gaps in the timetable for any more trains to depart from those depots via any of the routes in question.

And here is the rub of it: to make additional shunts from one siding to another to reform 2 x 5 car units in to one x 10 car unit at either of those depots, would require a timetable slot (within the depot limits) between other planned departure (times) from those depots, prior to its departure from the depot as a 10 car, and a timetable slot to match. Both of these scenarios were exhausted with the SWT 10 car plan back in 2014, when any such shunt moves were exhausted, in so far as to make any such shunts (within depot limits) would have the result of cancelling a main line departure from the depot, because the shunt move had taken its slot on the departure siding concerned.

I struggled to get this point across to certain very senior people in my time, but I believe a review of such matters after my time by Michael Holden, designed to understand the core reasons for a decline in reliability did address such matters.

PS: there are only so many routes out of Wimbledon or Clapham depots, and if any of those routes are occupied by units making shunt moves from one siding to another to reform from 5 to 10 car format, that route is then lost to any train departing that depot. End result being a loss of a pathway out of (the) depot to provide a train for service. This is not rocket science!

 

[Bigfoot]

701s are now cleared for passenger use on all suburban routes from next week, including Guildford/Ascot and as far as Farnham. A not to call restriction on Wanborough and Ash.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

701s are now cleared for passenger use on all suburban routes from next week, including Guildford/Ascot and as far as Farnham. A not to call restriction on Wanborough and Ash.

Expected as much. It wouldn’t have made sense to replace the current Farnham - Aldershot - Ash - Wanborough - Guildford shuttles with 701s when a 450 is the perfect size.

 

[PG]

And from an operational POV, on a daily basis, splitting 10 cars in to 2 x 5 cars (simply to stable in sub 10 car length sidings each night) and reform a few hours later for the next days start up, is in the land of fairies! It would never work.

Thank you for that most informative post

A question if I may -

If the 5 cars were never likely to be routinely split then what was the reasoning behind them?​

Seems like a lot of grief with cab redesign to ensure 2 x 5 cars were the same length as a 10 car with door positions in the same place when, if I understand you correctly, due to stabling capacity they are either going to be running as 5 cars, or as permanent 2 x 5 cars because split/join moves eat up timetable slots.

 

[Goldfish62]

Expected as much. It wouldn’t have made sense to replace the current Farnham - Aldershot - Ash - Wanborough - Guildford shuttles with 701s when a 450 is the perfect size.

Just out of interest I wonder what the issue is at Ash and Wanborough.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Thank you for that most informative post

A question if I may -
If the 5 cars were never likely to be routinely split then what was the reasoning behind them?

Didn't mean to waffle on, sorry about that. Seem to have used 10 words when 2 would have sufficed (sort of thing!).

701's/SWR came after my time, so can only take an educated guess. Stabling capacity wise it does allow a proportion of the shorter sidings to be used, so is of benefit to the overall situation, and from a train service angle it may be remembered that a number of early a.m. services such as the first two Up from Staines to Waterloo (as was) were 4/5 cars only, which then combined at Waterloo to form an 8/10 car. The reverse happened late night when an 8/10 car split at Waterloo before forming the last two Down trains (2352/2358 if memory is correct) to Staines.

That is the sort of scenario where the 5 car units may be used to best advantage perhaps, in addition to some services during the day that need no more than five cars, although this latter point can be difficult to get right, as within a (unit) diagram, xx number of trains may be ok with 5 cars, but others may require 10.

There are also odd places where 10 cars can't be used, such as Kingston bay, and (there were) restrictions on number of cars permitted at some places when shunting/reversing (eg during engineering work) due to signal constraints - eg Hounslow (as was). Some of these restrictions may well have been addressed with the new signalling? I am unable to comment on that - a lot has changed since my time.

 

[TEW]

Just out of interest I wonder what the issue is at Ash and Wanborough.

There are unlikely to be any paticular issues, they just haven't been tested.

 

[Goldfish62]

There are unlikely to be any paticular issues, they just haven't been tested.

Thanks.

 

[Nogoohwell]

What happened to 2D39 -14:54 Waterloo - Guildford, yesterday 2/7.
The 701 was still on platform 1 30 minutes later with lights off and doors locked.

 

[ctom_s]

I think if you're used to a 455 they could set the 701s to oven temperature and people wouldn't complain too much, but no I've never heard anyone complaining.

EDIT: sorry was on the wrong page, this was in relation to the aircon being too high

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

What happened to 2D39 -14:54 Waterloo - Guildford, yesterday 2/7.
The 701 was still on platform 1 30 minutes later with lights off and doors locked.

Cancelled due to a fault with the doors, according to internal sources.

 

[swr444]

Next weeks diagram looks to be this one

No.10: 701 Diagram
Starts at Waterloo – 2O03 → 2K07 → 2O15 → 2K19 → 2O27 → 2K31 → 2O39 → 2K43 → 2O51 → 2K55 → 2O63 → 2K67 → 5Y37 – Ends at Clapham Yard Sidings

 

[Goldfish62]

Next weeks diagram looks to be this one

No.10: 701 Diagram
Starts at Waterloo – 2O03 → 2K07 → 2O15 → 2K19 → 2O27 → 2K31 → 2O39 → 2K43 → 2O51 → 2K55 → 2O63 → 2K67 → 5Y37 – Ends at Clapham Yard Sidings

Thanks for the update.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Glad to see the back of a 455 operating 2O63 very soon

 

[Robert Carroll]

Something I have noticed is the variation in braking techniques. Today on the 18:09 from Waterloo, there were some very short, sharp brake applications at low speed as we slowed to a stop at Worcester Park. On other days, it's much smoother. Possibly indicative of drivers taking a little while to get the feel of the units on the various gradients (it's uphill on the down line at WCP).

 

[NSEWonderer]

Something I have noticed is the variation in braking techniques. Today on the 18:09 from Waterloo, there were some very short, sharp brake applications at low speed as we slowed to a stop at Worcester Park. On other days, it's much smoother. Possibly indicative of drivers taking a little while to get the feel of the units on the various gradients (it's uphill on the down line at WCP).

That may be down to how the brakes transition on the 701's. Between 6-8mph the Regenative brakes switch off and the friction brakes increase to catch up and take fully over. During this transition it isnt always so smooth unless you have the PBC around 15-25%, so the friction brakes don't have to apply so hard to compensate. It takes just a little bit of getting used to and most drivers have it sorted technique wise, in no time!

 

[Snow1964]

There are unlikely to be any paticular issues, they just haven't been tested.

It's slightly odd that someone decided to clear the stations either side, and add the section to Farnham, but chose not to include doing those at the same time.

Having once got a train from Brockenhurst towards Bournemouth consisting of SAP, HAP units during snow in London area, having the ability to use surburban units in an emergency when mainline units are struggling, 100+ miles from London as every route is cleared seems beneficial. Maybe 701s will never get to Bournemouth but I could easily see substitutions to Basingstoke, Alton, Haslemere etc.

 

[NSEWonderer]

701s wouldn't be doing a Guildford to Farnham service and vice versa, not the 701 10cars anyway so wouldn't make sense to clear them.

 

[Robert Carroll]

That may be down to how the brakes transition on the 701's. Between 6-8mph the Regenative brakes switch off and the friction brakes increase to catch up and take fully over. During this transition it isnt always so smooth unless you have the PBC around 15-25%, so the friction brakes don't have to apply so hard to compensate. It takes just a little bit of getting used to and most drivers have it sorted technique wise, in no time!

That makes sense. Most of the time, the stops and starts are very smooth.

 

[TEW]

It's slightly odd that someone decided to clear the stations either side, and add the section to Farnham, but chose not to include doing those at the same time.

Having once got a train from Brockenhurst towards Bournemouth consisting of SAP, HAP units during snow in London area, having the ability to use surburban units in an emergency when mainline units are struggling, 100+ miles from London as every route is cleared seems beneficial. Maybe 701s will never get to Bournemouth but I could easily see substitutions to Basingstoke, Alton, Haslemere etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ash & Wanborough were cleared at some point for flexibility. There are no plans to run them there which is why they haven't been done yet. They will be running Farnham to Waterloo via Ascot soon though which is why those stations were done.

 

[Lewis66655]

Does anyone know when the Woking stopping service will be using 701s?

 

[swr444]

Does anyone know when the Woking stopping service will be using 701s?

No Woking/guildford/ Farnham drivers or guards have been trained on the 701s yet. So can’t imagine they will go onto the Woking stoppers, Guildford cobhams or chessingtons (bar the 2300 service) until they begin training.

 

[Flange Squeal]

No Woking/guildford/ Farnham drivers or guards have been trained on the 701s yet.

Guard training at at least one of those depots has actually begun, with at least one course now completed.

 

[NSEWonderer]

At least two Guildford guards are trained

 

[swr444]

Oh that’s good to know! I wasn’t keeping track over the last week or so, good to see it’s progressing to other depots

 

[norbitonflyer]

There are also odd places where 10 cars can't be used, such as Kingston bay, ............... Some of these restrictions may well have been addressed with the new signalling? I am unable to comment on that - a lot has changed since my time.

Not Kingston bay - the distance from buffer stops to fouling point is the same (8-car) length it always was and, short of demolition of the station buildings or widening of the bridge over the Thames, always will be. The resignalling does now allow 10 car trains to reverse in platform 2 (the through platform on the opposite face to the bay) but this is only of practical use if there are no through trains (ie when the line towards Norbiton is closed)

 

[Goldfish62]

Not Kingston bay - the distance from buffer stops to fouling point is the same (8-car) length it always was and, short of demolition of the station buildings or widening of the bridge over the Thames, always will be. The resignalling does now allow 10 car trains to reverse in platform 2 (the through platform on the opposite face to the bay) but this is only of practical use if there are no through trains (ie when the line towards Norbiton is closed)

Looking at the Sunday timetable it appears to cater for the Kingston - Hounslow - Waterloo service using this arrangement. The issue will be Kingston - Shepperton shuttles during engineering works, which currently have convenient cross-platform interchange from Reading and Windsor services. In this case I guess a 450 would be used in the absence of 701/5s.