I think you could pretty much say that for all of the privatisation odyssey.
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Half baked ideology.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
Probably out of Woking East End Sidings as you witnessed? Trying to think back to those times. The pre planned use of the 12 HAP out of Wim Depot left WD (and the London area as a whole) with no spare traffic stock (on the day) bar one x 4 VEP at Wim depot, which I am sure would have also been used on the day by Control, whereas Farnham had several HAP's spare**. A number of driver's turns had to be extended on the Friday night (beforehand) as I recall, to do a load of shunting at Farnham shed, to reposition the HAPs (those that on paper were due to stand spare over the weekend) to allow ease of egress for all the 400 series (VEP/CIG) stock formed services on the Saturday morning.
For the Saturday 'Network day' starts, priority was given to forming services with corridor stock I should mention here and now, and bare in mind Farnham shed in those days was just a 5 road shed, nothing more, and so those HAPs were repositioned to be on the blocks and out of harms way by close of service on the Friday night. Not every depot had 'depot shunters' (people) in those days, so every move had to be diagrammed to a mainline driver, provided that the move(s) in question could be done within the driver diagram/rostering rules in play at the time, never easy for a planner I can tell you, and sometimes relied upon individual planner/Driver Rep. co-operation, which did exist in some quarters it may surprise some to know!
All the 400 series units at Farnham having been diagrammed to strengthen services starting Farnham shed or to move units (ECS) up to The Smoke to assist with formation strengthening at Waterloo on the Saturday morning, and Woking having one I think (two at very most) HAP's in the East End, that were normally spare SO & SUN, so no good on their own as a crowd buster, hence my thinking that Farnham's HAPs became involved in this Bournemouth line HAP working? It was what it was, and just another example of everyone pitching in to the greater good as far as I was/am concerned.
** HAPs spare at Farnham shed. If I ever got sight of the LTP CWN for that time, I could confirm how many HAP's were in question, but it was several AFAIR.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Views probably varied a bit depending on where you lived. On the London Tilbury and Southend ‘Misery Line’ it represented a clapped out ‘Old BR’ feel. Not smart new Class 357s after franchising.
NorthKent1989
Established Member
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- 2,172
Good question, especially as those aforementioned mentions of NSE came a decade after the entire thing had been binned off, we still have the Network Railcard which is a NSE leftover.
London Overground itself is pretty much NSE’s spiritual successor and before that the ON Overground Network which ran from 2003 to 2006, was an attempt at recreating the old NSE system
Let’s not forget that this was just a few short years after privatisation had kicked in
When NSE replaced the Regions those regions were pretty consigned to history, so much so that it’s hard to associate the regions with anything past the 1970s, yet NSE Lives on 40 years later
Interesting info. So it's conceivable the 10HAP formation came up from Farnham on Saturday morning to sit in Woking sidings in case it was needed as a Bournemouth crowdbuster... which of course it was.
and those that saw it as a chance to:
"Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash"
Dr Hoo
Established Member
It’s amazing how people have forgotten how badly the brand had been tarnished by the crashes at Clapham, Purley and Cannon Street.
After the investment taps were turned off and revenue growth slowed in the wake of the early 1990s financial turbulence it was blindingly clear that BR had to focus on a safety (and quality) culture and successfully complete the major programme of work needed in connection with the Channel Tunnel project. The time for a brand-led railway kept afloat by a torrent of marketing hype (more style over substance and sizzle rather than sausage) had passed.
After the investment taps were turned off and revenue growth slowed in the wake of the early 1990s financial turbulence it was blindingly clear that BR had to focus on a safety (and quality) culture and successfully complete the major programme of work needed in connection with the Channel Tunnel project. The time for a brand-led railway kept afloat by a torrent of marketing hype (more style over substance and sizzle rather than sausage) had passed.
Not really surprising as it was an entity that matched reality from a passenger POV in the sense that (with the exception of the furthest flung bits) NSE was the London “travel to work area”. The fact that the NSE area was (broadly) logical and defined (in the same way as Scotrail and Merseyrail are) helps it to stay in the memory - and that’s without the boost of its initial impact.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
But NSE would have refurbished that line anyway. I believe the train in my profile pic would have replaced the slam door stock.
I don't recall much more "substance" from Connex, unless you count the rather dirty grey livery.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
Quite possibly, yes. But without talking to one or two of the controllers of the time (a couple of whom I still know) I could not comment, and being controllers, I doubt very much they will remember anything from any specific dates, their job was far too much 'in the moment' to remember anything this far down the line in relation to specific dates. Without wishing to cause offence, 10/12 HAP might seem memorable to some (in the here and now), but to most on the job, if it happened, it happened, and the only reason I remember same, is that I both diagrammed said move on one occasion and on the day went out and photo'd same. There are many other moves I diagrammed which were perhaps out of the norm so to speak, but never got to record and went un noticed in the general sense. It was what it was (a job)!
No worries, I wasn't asking you to say for definite what happened... it was just chat on one particularly interesting period of the "good old days" (which for me is just about anything pre-Covid, to be honest!)
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I also wouldn't say NSE was style over substance. It had its problems but credit needs to be given where credit's due; for example the Weymouth and Solent electrifications, East Grinstead electrification, beginning of Thameslink, and a number of late-80s timetable improvements during the Mon-Sat off-peak in particular.
I would say that things weren't as good from 1991 onwards due to the recession, though even then a number of modernisations were successfully implemented (e.g. 159s on the Waterloo-Exeter; Turbos out of Paddington and Marylebone).
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ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Sonewhere I have the paper SW log for that first Network Day. It starts off with an 0600 statement of the 10 HAP spare , and I think a 8 VEP at Wimbledon Park.
By about 1000 it was becoming obvious that there were large numbers on the move - and the rest of the day was all about numerous add-hoc manufactered extras all over the place , with reports coming in from all directions of heavy loadings.
I will do my best to find it !
Many thanks... would be interesting!
Failed Unit
Established Member
We also forget about “Total Route Modernisation” of the Chilterns. The Network Turbos. I don’t know had BR survived if LTS would it have got the total route modernisation.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Saturday 21st June 1986
0548 Exter reports overcrowding so 2 LHCS attached Salisbury
0745 Waterloo - Bomo reported full and standing from origin
Spcl Woking to Bomo arranged to relieve above.
0915 spcl Wat - Bomo (fast to Elgh) arranged
0827 spcl Woking to Bomo arranged
0955 Salisbury to Basing and 1101 Basing to Wloo spcl formed 8 LHS
0907 spcl Elgh to Waterloo formed 8 EMU
0900 spcl Fratton - Woking and return to Bomo at 1013 formed 8 HAP
0920 spcl Woking to Bomo 6 HAP
0945 Bomo - Waterloo spcl
0945 Guildford to Portsmoth spcl non stop
0643 Exeter to Waterloo 2 additional LHCS attached Salisbury - 12 in total
0956 Waterloo - Bomo spcl formed 12 VEP
1030 Basing - Wloo spcl
1200 Waterloo - Bomo spcl 8 VEP
1120 Bomo - Waterloo spcl 2 HAP / 4 VEP
1048 Elgh - Bomo spcl 3 Hamp (train of the day!)
1055 Wimbledon Park CS to Woking for 1115 Spcl to Portsmouth Harbour
1050 Spcl Bomo - Weymouth formed 4TC
1124 Wloo- Bournemouth 12 cars
1224 Wloo - Bournemouth 8 CIG
1345 Salis- Waterloo spcl 10 LHCS
1548 Wloo -Fratton spcl 12 CIG
1730 Havant - Wloo spcl
1936 Wloo - Pomo spcl 12 CIG fast to Guilford then Pomo
2104 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1550 Wloo - Pomo Bep, 2 HAP , 4CIG
1810 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1635 Salis - Wloo spcl 8 LHCS
1912 Wloo - Yeovil Jct spcl
1605 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1630 - Wloo calling Soton only 12 VEP
1840 Wloo - Bomo calling Soton only
1830 Farnham - Pomo spcl 4 VEP / 2 HAP
2004 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1620 Weymouth - Eastleigh 8 TC
1904 Poole - Brighton spcl
1730 Poole to Bletchley (!) - passenger to Woking semi
1830 Weymouth to Bomo extended to Wloo
1920 Salisbury to Basingstoke exended to Wloo
1904 Pomo - Wloo spcl 8 VEP
2115 Waterloo - Fratton spcl
2215 Bomo - Basingstoke had passengers for London so driver volunteered to go through to Wloo as spcl (ECS back to Basing) ,calling as neccesry to drop passengers enroute.
2212 Bomo - Basigstoke also worked to Wloo - formed 13 vice 9 , 8 VEP , TC and diesel - held Vauxhall for 70 mins due to congetion having passed Clapham Junction at 0056 , arrived 0211 ! Log reports guard had many complaints !
Typed as per log , no doubt a very tough day for the operators and no doubt thanks to the crews etc who put such an effort in.
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0548 Exter reports overcrowding so 2 LHCS attached Salisbury
0745 Waterloo - Bomo reported full and standing from origin
Spcl Woking to Bomo arranged to relieve above.
0915 spcl Wat - Bomo (fast to Elgh) arranged
0827 spcl Woking to Bomo arranged
0955 Salisbury to Basing and 1101 Basing to Wloo spcl formed 8 LHS
0907 spcl Elgh to Waterloo formed 8 EMU
0900 spcl Fratton - Woking and return to Bomo at 1013 formed 8 HAP
0920 spcl Woking to Bomo 6 HAP
0945 Bomo - Waterloo spcl
0945 Guildford to Portsmoth spcl non stop
0643 Exeter to Waterloo 2 additional LHCS attached Salisbury - 12 in total
0956 Waterloo - Bomo spcl formed 12 VEP
1030 Basing - Wloo spcl
1200 Waterloo - Bomo spcl 8 VEP
1120 Bomo - Waterloo spcl 2 HAP / 4 VEP
1048 Elgh - Bomo spcl 3 Hamp (train of the day!)
1055 Wimbledon Park CS to Woking for 1115 Spcl to Portsmouth Harbour
1050 Spcl Bomo - Weymouth formed 4TC
1124 Wloo- Bournemouth 12 cars
1224 Wloo - Bournemouth 8 CIG
1345 Salis- Waterloo spcl 10 LHCS
1548 Wloo -Fratton spcl 12 CIG
1730 Havant - Wloo spcl
1936 Wloo - Pomo spcl 12 CIG fast to Guilford then Pomo
2104 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1550 Wloo - Pomo Bep, 2 HAP , 4CIG
1810 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1635 Salis - Wloo spcl 8 LHCS
1912 Wloo - Yeovil Jct spcl
1605 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1630 - Wloo calling Soton only 12 VEP
1840 Wloo - Bomo calling Soton only
1830 Farnham - Pomo spcl 4 VEP / 2 HAP
2004 Pomo - Wloo spcl
1620 Weymouth - Eastleigh 8 TC
1904 Poole - Brighton spcl
1730 Poole to Bletchley (!) - passenger to Woking semi
1830 Weymouth to Bomo extended to Wloo
1920 Salisbury to Basingstoke exended to Wloo
1904 Pomo - Wloo spcl 8 VEP
2115 Waterloo - Fratton spcl
2215 Bomo - Basingstoke had passengers for London so driver volunteered to go through to Wloo as spcl (ECS back to Basing) ,calling as neccesry to drop passengers enroute.
2212 Bomo - Basigstoke also worked to Wloo - formed 13 vice 9 , 8 VEP , TC and diesel - held Vauxhall for 70 mins due to congetion having passed Clapham Junction at 0056 , arrived 0211 ! Log reports guard had many complaints !
Typed as per log , no doubt a very tough day for the operators and no doubt thanks to the crews etc who put such an effort in.
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Many thanks - very interesting.
Looks like there were as many as 3, possibly 4, specials from Woking to Bournemouth (from my reading it looks like there might have been two reliefs for the 0745 Waterloo-Bournemouth).
Almost certainly I was on the 1013 Woking-Bournemouth. Looks like it was 8HAP, not 10HAP.
Interesting that people got going very early for a Saturday, with the 0745 Waterloo-Bournemouth full.
1224 Waterloo-Bournemouth was formed 8CIG, I believe at the time CIGs were not diagrammed for regular services beyond Basingstoke or possibly even Woking so that was presumably quite a novelty down at the Bournemouth end. By 1989 CIGs regularly appeared down there but not, IIRC, in the mid-80s.
BEP/HAP/CIG is an interesting lashup!
There didn't seem to be a similar number of specials returning from Bournemouth towards London in the early evening, incidentally - I guess the load was more spread out. Certainly my return journey wasn't especially overcrowded (I believe this was on the Bournemouth-Waterloo due Woking around 1839, so must have been 1700-ish ex-Bournemouth).
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That can happen at special events. The 1978 Bob Dylan etc concert at Blackbushe airport, near Fleet station on the SW Main, was broadly well handled with 12-EPB extras from every depot on the Southern, but at the start the regular 0530 etc departures from Waterloo, although augmented formations themselves, left full and standing. Presumably the passengers had been hanging round Waterloo all night. Pre-NSE of course. Described here:
Southern Region services 1975-82 and Arun Valley 1983
Hi, A while back I asked about old timetables, but wondered if anyone could give information on the typical pattern of Southern Region services over selected years in this period? Specifically the mainlines (non-suburban) on the South Western and Central divisions between 1975-82? I ask as this...
www.railforums.co.uk
That can happen at special events. The 1978 Bob Dylan etc concert at Blackbushe airport, near Fleet station on the SW Main, was broadly well handled with 12-EPB extras from every depot on the Southern, but at the start the regular 0530 etc departures from Waterloo, although augmented formations themselves, left full and standing. Presumably the passengers had been hanging round Waterloo all night. Pre-NSE of course. Described here:
Southern Region services 1975-82 and Arun Valley 1983
Hi, A while back I asked about old timetables, but wondered if anyone could give information on the typical pattern of Southern Region services over selected years in this period? Specifically the mainlines (non-suburban) on the South Western and Central divisions between 1975-82? I ask as this...
Yes, I remember your post about the concert and all those EPBs back from Fleet, though I don't remember the bit about the early departures being full. Can see it would be the case though.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Indeed, I do think the old railway was so very much more flexible. Seemed to be far more capable of reacting to special events.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
The station teleprinters must have gone through many reels of paper that day , not to mention the serious workload of train crew supervisors in juggling crews around on what must have been a hectic day , there must have been a fair amount of overtime that day.
Yes - using all the stock to hand (and getting them back at days end) - Southern was well used to dealing with large demand at say Twickenham , but this was something else. Note the Portsmouth extras , so there must have been a hectic day also for the Isle of Wight ferries.
I dare say the Kent Coast and Brighton must have had some serious loadings also. Those logs would have made interesting reading. Only a couple of references to passenger disorder , return traffic unsurprisingly , dealt with by the local police as the BTP would have been under some pressure I guess.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
That 8 Vep now rings a distant bell - there was similar up at Clapham I think - both designed/planned as 'hot spares' - crewed up and ready to go, although likely swallowed up in to the fray very quickly by all accounts!
Not the Network Day, but a weekend in January '86 when Chertsey diversions required an additional set of stock to cover the 92's. There was a Cig on the other end.
Attachments
From the beginning of Bournemouth electrification full CIG formations were regulars at Bournemouth on summer Saturdays. This was a combination of there only being 11 REPs built originally, plus there was much more of a summer Saturday peak demand, and timetabled additional Saturday services on the Bournemouth line, than was the case in later years.
Mechanically and electrically I understand they were the same as a VEP. Only the bodywork was different.
Ah ok, fair enough - my comments were mostly based on a later period than that, around the mid-80s when my memory, plus the CWNs I have, suggested it was fully REP/TC on the fasts (aside from an occasional VEP formation in the peak) and fully VEP on the stoppers (with a few HAPs about in the peak). But by that time all of the REPs were in service.
By 1989 there were certainly CIGs on some stoppers (1989 was when Basingstoke/Southampton and Alton services were separated) - and even in 1988 I saw a few CIGs on the Basingstoke and beyond/Alton dividers one day at Clapham Junction, so it must have changed around the time of the Weymouth electrification.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Before this thread recedes too far into the past and noting the excellent reminiscences from the South Western side it's probably worth my recalling (the first) 'Network Day' on the Southeastern. I was chosen to provide general managerial cover on the late turn. It became obvious very early in the day that the main flows of ordinary members of the public (rather than enthusiasts) were to 'the seaside'. Several places, notably Bournemouth, the Isle of Wight, Brighton and Clacton quickly became mobbed. On the Southeastern the destination of choice was Margate. There had been some extra trains to supplement the rather thin hourly Sunday service from Victoria via Faversham and arrivals had been relatively spread out. There were some really odd reliefs, such as a regular service from Victoria to the Dartford lines via Nunhead, which wasn't really an established route at the time. There was also an additional circuit on the Sittingbourne-Sheerness branch, making it half hourly. This was possibly to accommodate an expected surge in travellers wanting to seize the chance to visit the birthplace of Dr Beeching.
I started in the Medway Towns, by car, hopping from station to station, getting intel from the staff and following the teleprinter update, which clearly showed how popular the day had turned out to be. I did, however, manage to establish that Sheerness had been deserted. Finally reaching Margate the staff explained that the town was packed and all trains had arrived full and standing. What was more worrying that few of them were showing signs of returning. The usual last trains on Sunday, via any route to London, even with a change at Ramsgate, were not long after 21:00. Frantic consultations with Control managed to rustle up some extras. A 12-CEP formation was normally quite comfortable but only had around 666 seats. 12-VEP was much better but they were all out anyway. Frantically some 10-EPB formations were made ready at Slade Green and started making their way down. (These never usually worked beyond Gillingham and of course had no toilets.) Eventually a tide wave of humanity started to flow towards Margate Station. Practically everyone wanted to go the 'London' (no niceties about Charing Cross or Victoria). The only way of dealing with is was to just fill every 'next' train and send it off. We deliberately made very little effort to say whether it was going via Faversham, Dover or Canterbury West.
A 10-EPB arrived at a packed platform and was announced as the next train to London. I was assailed by the biggest wave of Anglo-Saxon expletives since the Saxons originally invaded Kent in the Fifth Century. "This is the biggest ****ing **** show ever. I'm never going to use ****ing British Rail ever again. You're the biggest load of *****, ****ers and ****ers I've ever come across.", etc, etc..
"Do you want to spend the night here?" "No? Well get on the train. Thank you. Right away, Guard..." It was a very, very long evening but nobody who made it as far as the station was left behind. Well done to the local staff, to Control, the drivers and guards who had turned out specially and most of all to the night turn carriage cleaners in the London area who would have had the job of preparing the stock for a full morning rush hour service the following day. I had to drive home and, of course, be ready for a normal day at work in the office on Monday. Waterloo would be expecting the usual prompt report and response to all the items in the lengthy log.
Had it promoted the name and brand of Network Southeast in a positive light? I'm not sure.
I started in the Medway Towns, by car, hopping from station to station, getting intel from the staff and following the teleprinter update, which clearly showed how popular the day had turned out to be. I did, however, manage to establish that Sheerness had been deserted. Finally reaching Margate the staff explained that the town was packed and all trains had arrived full and standing. What was more worrying that few of them were showing signs of returning. The usual last trains on Sunday, via any route to London, even with a change at Ramsgate, were not long after 21:00. Frantic consultations with Control managed to rustle up some extras. A 12-CEP formation was normally quite comfortable but only had around 666 seats. 12-VEP was much better but they were all out anyway. Frantically some 10-EPB formations were made ready at Slade Green and started making their way down. (These never usually worked beyond Gillingham and of course had no toilets.) Eventually a tide wave of humanity started to flow towards Margate Station. Practically everyone wanted to go the 'London' (no niceties about Charing Cross or Victoria). The only way of dealing with is was to just fill every 'next' train and send it off. We deliberately made very little effort to say whether it was going via Faversham, Dover or Canterbury West.
A 10-EPB arrived at a packed platform and was announced as the next train to London. I was assailed by the biggest wave of Anglo-Saxon expletives since the Saxons originally invaded Kent in the Fifth Century. "This is the biggest ****ing **** show ever. I'm never going to use ****ing British Rail ever again. You're the biggest load of *****, ****ers and ****ers I've ever come across.", etc, etc..
"Do you want to spend the night here?" "No? Well get on the train. Thank you. Right away, Guard..." It was a very, very long evening but nobody who made it as far as the station was left behind. Well done to the local staff, to Control, the drivers and guards who had turned out specially and most of all to the night turn carriage cleaners in the London area who would have had the job of preparing the stock for a full morning rush hour service the following day. I had to drive home and, of course, be ready for a normal day at work in the office on Monday. Waterloo would be expecting the usual prompt report and response to all the items in the lengthy log.
Had it promoted the name and brand of Network Southeast in a positive light? I'm not sure.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
Thank you. A well timed reminder that those Network Days were not just on my old patch (SW), but far wider. From a personal note being based at Waterloo in those days, we (SW people) were on the 2nd floor (AFAIR) in the General offices, my own being just nearly above the Victory Arch, and our SE colleagues (people we all knew and in some cases still know) were up on the 4th, which had the benefit of the central corridor giving access to the roof at the Windsor side end, from which I still have a number of photo's I took from there, as I'm sure (know!) a number of others took similar advantage of.
Our Central Div. colleagues, some of whom again are still in touch with, albeit all retired, were still down in Croydon at the time.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
I think it was £3 for a day , tremendous value for the public. ! - went with some neighbours and we had a grand day indeed.
Good grief. Ungrateful ***s.
A cheap day out, and they whinge about having to travel on an EPB which is an extra to the normal service. If anything, this demonstrates the impressive flexibility of the "old" railway.
As stated above, I had a half-empty HAP formation on an extra. Did I complain? No, though with my enthusiast hat on there was something quite interesting about travelling on a HAP-operated fast, I will admit.
(As a point of order the first Network Day, and the second, were Saturdays so there would be no full commuter service the following day).
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