Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[NSEWonderer]

When the temperature is 34 outside and it's 22 on the train then if people didn't notice there'd have to be something wrong with them!

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What's the effect on the body? Apart from cooling it down?

Its the speed at which you cool down a body that can be dangerous. A rapid body temperature change both when cooling and then inevitably when the passenger gets off at lets say Waterloo(Which often ends up a big greenhouse in the heat), the body temp very quickly rises again which can lead to fainting(partially what prompted a few degrees temp increase on the Lizzy).

Usually 20-22C target for AC is a fair middle ground which the Desiros mostly target.

 

[DMckduck]

How long until the lack of available units delays the rollout further?

SWR will no doubt play the summer leave card and then the further christmas leave card if required for holding up training.

 

[Goldfish62]

Its the speed at which you cool down a body that can be dangerous. A rapid body temperature change both when cooling and then inevitably when the passenger gets off at lets say Waterloo(Which often ends up a big greenhouse in the heat), the body temp very quickly rises again which can lead to fainting(partially what prompted a few degrees temp increase on the Lizzy).

We're talking about the difference in a few degrees at the higher end of what's comfortable for most people, not plunging into a cold bath!

The recommended temperature for homes is 18-21. I set mine at 19c when it needs warming. 22c for a train is too warm for comfort. I find the Desiros generally too warm, although they can vary a lot even in the same coach. The 458s are great, though, as is my local Tesco. When I popped in yesterday I didn't see people keeling over due to the temperature change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==

How long until the lack of available units delays the rollout further?

SWR will no doubt play the summer leave card and then the further christmas leave card if required for holding up training.

I imagine DFTO-owned SWR will be going all-out to avoid such a situation.

 

[Nimbus020]

How long until the lack of available units delays the rollout further?

SWR will no doubt play the summer leave card and then the further christmas leave card if required for holding up training.

Staff issues are still an issue as well as unit availability - e.g. 2D90 (06:18 Epsom - W'loo) cancelled this morning "due to an issue with the train crew (TG)" - unit 037 (?) was originally allocated according to RTT

 

[43096]

Its the speed at which you cool down a body that can be dangerous. A rapid body temperature change both when cooling and then inevitably when the passenger gets off at lets say Waterloo(Which often ends up a big greenhouse in the heat), the body temp very quickly rises again which can lead to fainting(partially what prompted a few degrees temp increase on the Lizzy).

Usually 20-22C target for AC is a fair middle ground which the Desiros mostly target.

20/21C in summer and 22C in winter should be the settings.

 

[Goldfish62]

Staff issues are still an issue as well as unit availability - e.g. 2D90 (06:18 Epsom - W'loo) cancelled this morning "due to an issue with the train crew (TG)" - unit 037 (?) was originally allocated according to RTT

Yet elsewhere on this thread we're told that there are loads of drivers in training.

If you think SWR are particularly short of staff look at cancellations due to staff at other operators, eg GTR, GWR!

 

[Electrostar387]

as is my local Tesco. When I popped in yesterday I didn't see people keeling over due to the temperature change.

Agreed! Supermarkets, and retail in general, have long since been a refuge of very good quality air conditioning. Having worked in a few of them a long time ago, we never once had someone keel over due to the sheer shock of coming inside from the outside on a hot day.
For what it's worth, the AC on 701s, to me, does seem a tad lacklustre, but still a step above the days of older stock, such as 442s. Goes without saying 701 AC is a thousand times better than 455s (i.e. the open window!).

Can't wait for SWR to have them fully rolled out - mediocre AC is better than none in my opinion!

 

[Nimbus020]

Yet elsewhere on this thread we're told that there are loads of drivers in training.

If you think SWR are particularly short of staff look at cancellations due to staff at other operators, eg GTR, GWR!

Unit 037 did make it to Waterloo ecs, however, and "went back on diagram" with 2J09 to Hampton Ct

 

[Goldfish62]

Agreed! Supermarkets, and retail in general, have long since been a refuge of very good quality air conditioning. Having worked in a few of them a long time ago, we never once had someone keel over due to the sheer shock of coming inside from the outside on a hot day.
For what it's worth, the AC on 701s, to me, does seem a tad lacklustre, but still a step above the days of older stock, such as 442s. Goes without saying 701 AC is a thousand times better than 455s (i.e. the open window!).

Can't wait for SWR to have them fully rolled out - mediocre AC is better than none in my opinion!

Agreed with all that!

 

[NSEWonderer]

We're talking about the difference in a few degrees at the higher end of what's comfortable for most people, not plunging into a cold bath!

The recommended temperature for homes is 18-21. I set mine at 19c when it needs warming. 22c for a train is too warm for comfort. I find the Desiros generally too warm, although they can vary a lot even in the same coach. The 458s are great, though, as is my local Tesco. When I popped in yesterday I didn't see people keeling over due to the temperature change.

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I imagine DFTO-owned SWR will be going all-out to avoid such a situation.

22c for a train is not too warm

Its 1C above the apparently recommended you mentioned for one, and even then the Desiros and lizzy from what I know is set to 20 internal in the summer.


Interestingly the FOI to tfl on regards to the 345s current AC setpoint profile:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

2. What is the target saloon temperature of class 345? See below.
If there is no set target temperature, what is the target saloon temperature at the following external ambient temperatures?
20ºc external ambient ,internal set point 24ºc
25ºc external ambient, internal set point 26ºc
40ºc external ambient, internal set point 31ºc

701s will be around that ball park. Intially the 345s were at 18C In the summer and that was a part contributor in a heat related sicknesses before the change.

Regardless there is AC and it has to most passengers a good effect, a lot more than open windows on a 455 heading to Reading would. Thread maybe have been hijacked now on this AC topic

 

[Goldfish62]

22c for a train is not too warm

It is for me. Fortunately most air conditioned trains are cooler.

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Its 1C above the apparently recommended you mentioned for one, and even then the Desiros and lizzy from what I know is set to 20 internal in the summer.

NHS England actually recommends 18c for rooms.

The 701s are great in this extreme heat, but a couple of degrees lower would make all the difference in more normal summer temperatures.

 

[NSEWonderer]

It is for me. Fortunately most air conditioned trains are cooler.

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NHS England actually recommends 18c for rooms.

Gov website puts down 21C but again its subjective, both values are between the 18-21C range. Main thing anyway is at least no one is boiling

Those setting the ac systems im sure have much more data to work with, directly which is why the asigned profiles are as they are at each toc/ unit.

 

[Goldfish62]

Interestingly the FOI to tfl on regards to the 345s current AC setpoint profile:

Clearly asked by someone who wasn't happy with the set temperature!

 

[NSEWonderer]

Or just a enthusiast. Asked a lot more than temps.

Clearly asked by someone who wasn't happy with the set temperature!

 

[swtrains]

Today's testing (701028):

5T91 - Clapham Yard - Waterloo - normal.
5T92 - Waterloo - Waterloo - goes to Kingston via Richmond, reverses, goes to Twickenham, reverses, and heads back to Waterloo via Wimbledon.
5Y37 - Waterloo - Clapham Yard - normal (with different headcode for some reason) - finishes at 1PM.
5T93 - Clapham Yard - Clapham Yard - goes to Farnham via Richmond and Ascot, reverses, goes to Staines, reverses, goes to Weybridge, reverses, goes to Twickenham, reverses, and heads back to the Yard via mainline finishing at 1AM.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q58979/2025-07-01/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q59138/2025-07-01/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q58977/2025-07-01/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q60333/2025-07-01/detailed

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Clearly asked by someone who wasn't happy with the set temperature!

The thing is, AC on the 345s seems fine to me, but it doesn’t on the 701s. So they cannot be set to the same temperature, or one is more sensitive than the other. 701s have unusually ineffective AC compared to other Aventras.

 

[swtrains]

701035 is running the super fast (1J) services to HMC today.
Semi fast services (2Z) being run by 450s/455s.

 

[vuzzeho]

BENEDICT TOWNSEND (@benedicttown) on Threads

Fair play to the latest SWR train carriages - some of the finest AC I’ve ever sampled in the UK

www.threads.com

Fair play to the latest SWR train carriages - some of the finest AC I’ve ever sampled in the UK

Seems like some regular users are fine with the AC temps. Maybe it's just something that varies from person to person.

 

[norbitonflyer]

No new units in passenger service so far this week. Indeed, last week's new one (701025) hasn't been used since Friday

 

[Goldfish62]

Seems like some regular users are fine with the AC temps. Maybe it's just something that varies from person to person.

Undoubtedly. Personally, I feel the heat and the cooler the better!

Right, I'm off to take shelter in Tesco away from the 29c heat in my house!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The thing is, AC on the 345s seems fine to me, but it doesn’t on the 701s. So they cannot be set to the same temperature, or one is more sensitive than the other. 701s have unusually ineffective AC compared to other Aventras.

The question is why has SWR specifically chosen to make the temperature higher than other operators of the same family of unit?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I find the Desiros generally too warm, although they can vary a lot even in the same coach. The 458s are great, though, as is my local Tesco. When I popped in yesterday I didn't see people keeling over due to the temperature change.

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I imagine DFTO-owned SWR will be going all-out to avoid such a situation.

I agree, the centre of the carriage on a 450 tends to be a bit warmer then beneath the air outlets near the doors. You can feel the difference as you walk through. I stop when it feels cool enough.

Agree also that the 458s are very pleasant. The old 458/5 used to be a bit varied with half the train cool and the other half like a sauna.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The question is why has SWR specifically chosen to make the temperature higher than other operators of the same family of unit?

Does it really matter, the data each TOC bases these off aren't going to be freely leaked, unless FOI'd and even then the average user won't care so long as there is working AC. I'm yet to hear much of a complaint about the AC from any passenger real world especially on the 450 which is of the AC fleet, set higher.

TFL itself has different set points, temperature wise for its Aventra's, the 710s running more cooler than the 345s. To the passengers however, its all quite the same feel.

 

[bb21]

The Rock Rail South Western accounts stated 59 of 60 10car and 28 of 30 5car were accepted and being paid for on 31 Dec (nearly 6 months ago), so presumably have reached acceptance standard.

Not totally clear to me, what additional work they need, to be able to run in service, over the already accepted by Operator status. Maybe someone has a list of what is needed, and could advise how long it takes to clear them for service.

I don't have the list of things in front of me but the standards for acceptance, test runs, and passenger service are all different.

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Oh ok, interesting. I wonder why SWR has chosen to set it to such a high setting for no apparent reason then.

They are set at 21C from my understanding. No adjustment has been made for the door issue.

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No new units in passenger service so far this week. Indeed, last week's new one (701025) hasn't been used since Friday

The 14th unit is now available for passenger use, 701018. 025 has been stopped for investigation of several significant faults.

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The "plug" doors should fit well even with air con going? Perhaps a fix is in progress?.

It's to do with a spurious obstruction being detected as I alluded to a few weeks back, not so much how well the doors fit. This is an Aventra-wide issue.

 

[mansonlo49]

701 movement got cancelled today, inbound light loco didn’t ran

 

[Nogoohwell]

Last point on AC. Unlike other Aventra’s, the guard has to get on and off the train every 5 minutes. Can’t imagine its pleasant for them going from 21c to 35c and back again. Perhaps this has been set to create a better working environment?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Unlike other Aventra’s, the guard has to get on and off the train every 5 minutes.

What about Class 730s on the Cross City line? Likely more frequent stops on those.

 

[AJDesiro]

What about Class 730s on the Cross City line? Likely more frequent stops on those.

And the AC on those is brilliant, a rather cool temperature. I don't know much about SWR operations, but on the Cross City most of the guards stay in the cabs, which of course will have their own AC which can be set to a temperature of the traincrew's choosing.

 

[Jamesrob637]

This thread is currently on 462 pages. What's the betting it will reach 701 pages before all units enter service?!

 

[swr444]

Last point on AC. Unlike other Aventra’s, the guard has to get on and off the train every 5 minutes. Can’t imagine its pleasant for them going from 21c to 35c and back again. Perhaps this has been set to create a better working environment?

Definitely not the case. Desiros and the 458s are not set up like that