• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

High fares - The issue that won't go away

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,161
There are some similarities with saussage rolls :lol:
  • Greggs sell sausage rolls at the same price all day, the 'Anytime' fare so to speak.
  • There is a 'Groupave' discount available if you buy 4 sausage rolls, you only pay for 3. To obtain the discount you must buy the sausage rolls at the same time but there is no requirement for them to be consumed at the same time or by the same person. Confusingly, sausage roll 'Groupsave' is not available at certain busy branches like motorway service stations or railway stations.
  • Some customers can obtain a discouned sausage rolls if they use a particular mobile phone provider. These discounts are quota controlled and not always available at 'peak' times.
  • If there is an excess capacity of sausage rolls at the end of the day then discounted sausage rolls might be offered.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sonic1234

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2021
Messages
803
Location
Croydon
There are some similarities with saussage rolls
There's a "first class" sausage roll which is 20% more expensive (VAT). This allows use of the seating area. Just like first class on the railway, most customers in the seating area do not hold a valid first class sausage roll, instead hold a standard (take away) one.
 

maniacmartin

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,438
Location
Croydon
According to some on this forum, Greggs should charge the same price for all products, whether its a sausage roll or vegetable slice, because to have a sausage-roll only fare is somehow in breach of competition law.

The whole £49.50 AP vs £50.00 off-peak flexible ticket thing is totally due to have the fares are presented by trainline or whatever. The public have no idea how fares work. They just pick an itinerary and choose the cheapest price on the next screen. If a retailer had a Ryanair-style screen on the next page saying "upgrade to a flexiile ticket for only 50p more allowing travel on any train after 9:30am" I wonder how many people would then press that button. Of course it can never be that simple, because the railway has kind of shot itself in the foot with extremely long convoluted restrictions that often can't be easily summarised in one sentence.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,161
There's a "first class" sausage roll which is 20% more expensive (VAT). This allows use of the seating area. Just like first class on the railway, most customers in the seating area do not hold a valid first class sausage roll, instead hold a standard (take away) one.
But if you're caught in the 1st class seating with an invalid sausage roll you won't have to worry about being prosecuted under Sausage Roll Byelaws, or being issued with a Penalty Sausage Roll :lol:
 

crablab

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2020
Messages
1,300
Location
UK
They just pick an itinerary and choose the cheapest price on the next screen. If a retailer had a Ryanair-style screen on the next page saying "upgrade to a flexiile ticket for only 50p more allowing travel on any train after 9:30am" I wonder how many people would then press that button.
Exactly.

Which is why the "people like advances because they're cheaper and cost is the most important thing" argument is disingenuous, as many people can't rank fares in order of flexibility and explain why the price is different between them.

For those that are making arguments about revenue, as @maniacmartin says it's a perfect upsell opportunity but that only works if you can actually neatly summarise the differences.

The "complexity" in the system that doesn't work well is mainly around restriction codes, TOC only fares, routeing and some of the more esoteric fare types. These all look good on paper for the industry, but are unfathomable to the general public and contribute to the impression of arbitrariness & that the railway is a racket.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
22,880
Location
West of Andover
"What do you mean that I've bought a day return? Trainline sold me an open return"
"What do you mean I can only travel on the stopping train, I never realised Trainline sold me a split ticket when I selected the cheapest train option when searching for A to B"
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,693
Location
LBK
According to some on this forum, Greggs should charge the same price for all products, whether its a sausage roll or vegetable slice, because to have a sausage-roll only fare is somehow in breach of competition law.

The whole £49.50 AP vs £50.00 off-peak flexible ticket thing is totally due to have the fares are presented by trainline or whatever. The public have no idea how fares work. They just pick an itinerary and choose the cheapest price on the next screen. If a retailer had a Ryanair-style screen on the next page saying "upgrade to a flexiile ticket for only 50p more allowing travel on any train after 9:30am" I wonder how many people would then press that button. Of course it can never be that simple, because the railway has kind of shot itself in the foot with extremely long convoluted restrictions that often can't be easily summarised in one sentence.
Airline fares are often extremely complex; the point is, many passengers will never ever want or need to use any of the flexibility, refundability, rebooking, or stopover (break of journey) options. Here's an example of a one way London to Toronto fare:

General notes

BUSINESS UNRESTRICTED FARES J
FOR ONE WAY FARES

Category 4: Flight restrictions​

IF A FARE COMPONENT ON THE PRICING UNIT INCLUDES TRAVEL
WITHIN EUROPE
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
9B FLIGHTS 8100 THROUGH 8799
9B FLIGHTS 1315 THROUGH 1999
9B FLIGHTS 4000 THROUGH 4999
9B FLIGHTS 0001 THROUGH 0999
9B FLIGHTS 5000 THROUGH 6299
9B FLIGHTS 6400 THROUGH 6599
9B FLIGHTS 6600 THROUGH 6799
9B FLIGHTS 6800 THROUGH 7299
9B FLIGHTS 7300 THROUGH 7999
LH FLIGHTS 3400 THROUGH 3899
W2 FLIGHTS 6200 THROUGH 6394
W2 FLIGHTS 6435 THROUGH 6614
AC FLIGHTS 5780 THROUGH 5829
AC FLIGHTS 9730 THROUGH 9759
FOR BOTH OUTBOUND AND INBOUND TRAVEL.
AND
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST INCLUDE TRAVEL VIA EACH
TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC.
AND
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AREA 2
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
AC FLIGHTS 5780 THROUGH 5829
AC FLIGHTS 9730 THROUGH 9759
9B FLIGHTS 8100 THROUGH 8799
9B FLIGHTS 1315 THROUGH 1999
9B FLIGHTS 4000 THROUGH 4999
9B FLIGHTS 0001 THROUGH 0999
9B FLIGHTS 5000 THROUGH 6299
9B FLIGHTS 6400 THROUGH 6599
9B FLIGHTS 6600 THROUGH 6799
9B FLIGHTS 6800 THROUGH 7299
9B FLIGHTS 7300 THROUGH 7999
LH FLIGHTS 3400 THROUGH 3899
W2 FLIGHTS 6200 THROUGH 6394
W2 FLIGHTS 6435 THROUGH 6614.
AND
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AREA 1
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC.
THE PRICING UNIT MUST NOT INCLUDE TRAVEL ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY 9B FLIGHT
LH FLIGHTS 3400 THROUGH 3749
W2 FLIGHTS 6200 THROUGH 6629
AC FLIGHTS 5780 THROUGH 5829
AC FLIGHTS 9730 THROUGH 9759
FOR BOTH OUTBOUND AND INBOUND TRAVEL.
AND
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN EUROPE
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY LH FLIGHT
ANY LX FLIGHT
ANY OS FLIGHT
ANY SN FLIGHT
ANY TP FLIGHT
ANY GQ FLIGHT
ANY AC FLIGHT
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY CL
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY EN
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY EW
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY LH
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY LX
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY OS
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY SN
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4Y
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY WK
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY A3
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY EI
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY TP
ANY LX FLIGHT OPERATED BY BT
ANY EN FLIGHT
ANY EW FLIGHT OPERATED BY EW
ANY LH FLIGHT OPERATED BY VL
ANY A3 FLIGHT OPERATED BY A3
ANY TP FLIGHT OPERATED BY TP
ANY EI FLIGHT
ANY BA FLIGHT
ANY IB FLIGHT
ANY AF FLIGHT
ANY KL FLIGHT
ANY LO FLIGHT OPERATED BY LO
ANY OU FLIGHT OPERATED BY OU
ANY TK FLIGHT OPERATED BY TK
ANY SK FLIGHT OPERATED BY SK
ANY SK FLIGHT OPERATED BY WX
ANY LG FLIGHT OPERATED BY LG
ANY AZ FLIGHT OPERATED BY AZ
ANY WF FLIGHT OPERATED BY WF
ANY OK FLIGHT OPERATED BY OK
ANY BT FLIGHT OPERATED BY BT
ANY XQ FLIGHT OPERATED BY XQ
ANY LH FLIGHT OPERATED BY CL
ANY LH FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4Y
ANY 4Y FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4Y
BUT NOT BY TRAIN.
AND
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST INCLUDE TRAVEL VIA EACH
TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY LH
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY UA
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY LX
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY OS
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY SN
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY CL
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY WK
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4Y
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY EW.
AND
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AREA 1
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY UA
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY 9K
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY 3M
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4B
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY HA
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AV
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY CM
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AD
ANY PB FLIGHT OPERATED BY PB
ANY P6 FLIGHT OPERATED BY P6
ANY LP FLIGHT OPERATED BY LP.

Category 5: Advanced reservation/ticketing restrictions​

NOTE -
-V27-
TICKETING WITH WAITLIST SEGMENTS PERMITTED
------
WHEN RESERVATIONS ARE MADE AT LEAST 14 DAYS BEFORE
DEPARTURE TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED AT LEAST 10
DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE.
OR -
WHEN RESERVATIONS ARE MADE AT LEAST 72 HOURS
BEFORE DEPARTURE TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED
WITHIN 72 HOURS AFTER RESERVATIONS ARE MADE.
OR -
TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 24 HOURS AFTER
RESERVATIONS ARE MADE.
--------------------------------------------------
DUE TO AUTOMATED TICKETING DEADLINE CONTROL
DIFFERENCE COULD EXIST BETWEEN THE FARE RULE
LAST TICKETING DATE AND THE SYSTEM GENERATED
TICKETING DEADLINE MESSAGE.
THE MORE RESTRICTIVE TICKETING DEADLINE APPLIES.
--------------------------------------------------
ANY RESERVATION FOR FARES WITH TICKETING DEADLINE
NOT TICKETED AT LEAST 26 HOURS BEFORE DEPARTURE
WILL BE CANCELLED. THIS APPLIES IN ADDITION TO
THE ABOVE MENTIONED DEADLINES.
RESERVATIONS MADE WITHIN 26 HOURS BEFORE DEPARTURE
REQUIRE TICKETING AT THE SAME TIME.

Category 8: Stopover restrictions​

UNLIMITED STOPOVERS PERMITTED IN EACH DIRECTION.

Category 9: Transfer restrictions​

UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT
FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS NOT PERMITTED AND EMBEDDED
SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT.

Category 10: Combinability​

END-ON-END PERMITTED. SIDE TRIPS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL
FARE COMPONENTS. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA POINT OF COMBINATION.
APPLICABLE ADD-ON CONSTRUCTION IS ADDRESSED IN
MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS - CATEGORY 23.
OPEN JAWS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS.
MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/LESS THAN
MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE COMPONENT.
PROVIDED -
THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE
WITHIN
-WITHIN AREA 1 OR WITHIN AREA 2 OR WITHIN AREA 3
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR ANY CARRIER IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS
A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
PERMITTED.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR ANY CARRIER IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.

Category 11: Blackout Dates​

TRAVEL IS NOT PERMITTED 24MAR 20 THROUGH 01MAY 20.

Category 12: Surcharges​

IF INFANT UNDER 02 WITHOUT A SEAT.
ORIGINATING CANADA -
A SURCHARGE OF CAD 15.00 WILL BE ADDED TO THE
APPLICABLE FARE FOR TRAVEL FOR ANY SECTOR BETWEEN
NORTH AMERICA AND AREA 2.
NOTE -
THE SURCHARGE IS A NAVIGATION SURCHARGE.
THE SURCHARGE APPLIES IN ADDITION TO ALL OTHER
CHARGES AND IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANY DISCOUNT.
THE SURCHARGE WILL ACCRUE TO AC ONLY
EXCEPTIONS -
THE SURCHARGE WIL NOT APPLY TO THE FOLLOWING -
1/ TOUR CONDUCTORS DISCOUNTED TICKETS
AND - THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR TRAVEL PER DIRECTION.
NOTE -
YQ CARRIER SURCHARGE NOT APPLICABLE
THE PROVISIONS BELOW APPLY ONLY AS FOLLOWS -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR LH.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR UA.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR SN.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR LX.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR OS.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR SK.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR ME.
OR - TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR SA.
ORIGINATING CANADA -
A SURCHARGE OF CAD 15.00 WILL BE ADDED TO THE
APPLICABLE FARE FOR TRAVEL FOR ANY SECTOR BETWEEN
NORTH AMERICA AND AREA 2.
NOTE -
THE SURCHARGE IS A NAVIGATION SURCHARGE.
THE SURCHARGE APPLIES IN ADDITION TO ALL OTHER
CHARGES AND IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANY DISCOUNT.
THE SURCHARGE WILL ACCRUE TO AC ONLY
EXCEPTIONS -
THE SURCHARGE WIL NOT APPLY TO THE FOLLOWING -
1/ TOUR CONDUCTORS DISCOUNTED TICKETS
AND - THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR TRAVEL.
NOTE -
YQ CARRIER SURCHARGE MAY APPLY.
AND - ORIGINATING LON -
THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR TRAVEL.
NOTE -
YQ CARRIER SURCHARGE MAY APPLY.
AND - ORIGINATING LON -
A SURCHARGE OF USD 1100.00 WILL BE ADDED TO THE
APPLICABLE FARE FOR TRAVEL FOR TRANSATLANTIC SECTORS.
NOTE -
THE SURCHARGE WILL ACCRUE TO AIR CANADA ONLY.

Category 15: Sales restrictions​

TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY FOR MEDICAL REASONS
IS NOT PERMITTED UNDER GUIDELINES STATED IN
RULE 65 /D/.

Category 15: Sales restrictions​

IF THE FARE COMPONENT IS ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
AC FLIGHTS 5780 THROUGH 5829
ORIGINATING UNITED KINGDOM -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC AND MAY NOT BE SOLD IN
IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/INDIA/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/
SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/
AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
ORIGINATING AREA 1 -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC AND MAY NOT BE SOLD IN
IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/SUDAN/
NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/AREA 2/
AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL FROM/TO/VIA
SWITZERLAND ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY WK
ANY LH FLIGHT OPERATED BY WK
ORIGINATING UNITED KINGDOM -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR LH AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/INDIA/VENEZUELA/SOUTH
SUDAN/SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN
AREA 1/AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
ORIGINATING AREA 1 -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR LH AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/
SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/
AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
IF THE FARE COMPONENT IS ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY SQ
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY TR
ANY SQ FLIGHT
ANY TR FLIGHT
ORIGINATING UNITED KINGDOM -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR SQ AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/INDIA/VENEZUELA/SOUTH
SUDAN/SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN
AREA 1/AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
ORIGINATING AREA 1 -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR SQ AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/
SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/
AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
IF THE FARE COMPONENT IS ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY MK
ANY MK FLIGHT
ORIGINATING UNITED KINGDOM -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR MK AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/INDIA/VENEZUELA/SOUTH
SUDAN/SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN
AREA 1/AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
ORIGINATING AREA 1 -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED ON AC OR MK AND MAY NOT BE SOLD
IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/
SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA AND MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/
AREA 2/AREA 3
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
ORIGINATING UNITED KINGDOM -
TICKETS MUST BE ISSUED BY ELECTRONIC TICKETING.
TICKETS MAY NOT BE SOLD IN IRAN,ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF/
INDIA/VENEZUELA/SOUTH SUDAN/SUDAN/NIGERIA/ANGOLA.
TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AREA 1/AREA 2/AREA 3.
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY PERMITTED UNDER
GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY CARRIER. CONTACT
CARRIER FOR DETAILS.

Category 16: Penalties​

CANCELLATIONS
ANY TIME
CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED.
NOTE -
REFUND PERMITTED BEFORE DEPARTURE IN CASE OF
REJECTION OF VISA.
EMBASSY STATEMENT REQUIRED.
REFUND MUST BE PROCESSED SAME DAY AS BOOKING
CANCELLATION.
YOU MUST CANCEL THE BOOKING AND REFUND WAIVERS
MUST BE ENTERED IN THE GDS REFUND MASK/WAIVER
CODE FIELD.
REFUND WAIVER CODE- ACVISAREJECT.
ONCE TICKET REFUNDED YOU MUST EMAIL OFFICIAL
EMBASSY STATEMENT OF THE VISA REJECTION AT
INDIRECTREFUNDS.REMBOURSEMENTINDIRECT AT
AIRCANADA.CA
-----------------------------------------------
NO REFUND PERMITTED IN CASE OF NO-SHOW.
-----------------------------------------------
TICKET/VALIDITY FORFEIT POLICY-
FLIGHT SEGMENT OR SEGMENTS MUST BE CANCELLED ON OR
PRIOR TO ORIGINAL DEPARTURE DATE. FAILURE TO
CANCEL FLIGHT SEGMENT OR SEGMENTS PRIOR TO
DEPARTURE DATE WILL RESULT IN COUPON OR COUPONS
FORFEIT AND COUPON WILL HAVE NO VALUE.
-----------------------------------------------
WAIVED FOR THE DEATH OF THE PASSENGER OR PASSENGER
FAMILY MEMBER OR PASSENGERS TRAVELING COMPANION.
DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED.
CHANGES
ANY TIME
CHANGES PERMITTED.
NOTE -
CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF NO SHOWS REFER
TO CANCELLATION PENALTY. IN THE EVENT OF A
DOMESTIC/TRANSBORDER AND INTERNATIONAL AC FARE
COMBINATION - INTERNATIONAL RULE PROVISION FOR
CHANGE WILL APPLY.
-----------------------------------------------
TICKET/VALIDITY FORFEIT POLICY-
FULLY UNUSED TICKETS MAY BE REBOOKED AND TRAVEL
COMPLETED UP TO ONE YEAR FROM ORIGINAL ISSUE DATE.
PARTIALLY USED TICKET MAY BE REBOOKED AND TRAVEL
COMPLETE UP TO ONE YEAR FROM ORIGINAL OUTBOUND
DATE.
FLIGHT SEGMENT OR SEGMENTS MUST BE CANCELLED ON OR
OR PRIOR TO ORIGINAL DEPARTURE DATE. FAILURE TO
CANCEL FLIGHT SEGMENT OR SEGMENTS PRIOR TO
DEPARTURE DATE WILL RESULT IN COUPON OR COUPONS
FORFEIT AND COUPON WILL HAVE NO VALUE
-----------------------------------------------
REPRICE USING ANY FARE TYPE EXCEPT ERU AND EOU
-----------------------------------------------
BEFORE DEPARTURE OF JOURNEY - FOR O/B CHANGE
THE NEW BASE FARE AMOUNT MUST BE RECALCULATED
USING CURRENT AND APPLICABLE FARES IN EFFECT
AT THE DATE OF ISSUANCE.
CHARGE DIFFERENCE IN FARE.
-----------------------------------------------
BEFORE DEPARTURE OF JOURNEY - FOR I/B CHANGE
THE NEW BASE FARE AMOUNT MUST BE RECALCULATED
USING HISTORICAL AND APPLICABLE FARES IN EFFECT AT
THE ORIGINAL TICKET DATE.
CHARGE DIFFERENCE IN FARE.
-----------------------------------------------
IN THE EVENT OF A DOMESTIC/TRANSBORDER AND
INTERNATIONAL AC FARE COMBINATION -
INTERNATIONAL RULE PROVISION FOR CHANGE WILL
APPLY.
-----------------------------------------------
PAX HOLDING CONFIRMED RESERVATION AND TICKETS ON
AC OPERATED FLIGHTS ONLY MAY CONFIRM EARLIER/LATER
SAME DAY FLIGHTS BETWEEN THE SAME ORIGIN/DEST./STP
POINTS FOR FREE OF CHARGE.
- SEAT INVENTORY MUST BE AVAIL. IN THE CABIN
APPLIC TO THE FARE CHARGED.
- CONFIRMED CHANGE MAY ONLY BE MADE AT THE AIRPORT
ON THE DAY OF THE FLT.
- ANY AIRPORT SAME DAY CONFIRMED CHANGES WILL NOT
BE ABLE TO BE ADMIN. BY CALLING THE
AC CALL CENTRE OR BY VISITING THE AC WEBSITE.
- REGULAR FARE RULES APPLY FOR ANY CHANGES WHICH
DO NOT QUALIFY FOR THE AIRPORT SAME DAY CONFIRMED
CHANGE FEE.
- SAMEDAY STANDBY NO ALLOWED.
-----------------------------------------------
AIRPORT SAME DAY CONFIRMED CHANGE-
PASSENGERS HOLDING CONFIRMED RESERVATIONS AND
TICKETS ON AC OPERATED FLIGHTS ONLY MAY CONFIRM
EARLIER/LATER SAME DAY FLIGHTS BETWEEN SAME
ORIGIN/DESTINATION/STOPOVER POINTS
FOR A NON-REFUNDABLE FEE OF CAD 100.00
-----------------------------------------------

Category 18: Endorsements​

THE ORIGINAL AND THE REISSUED TICKET MUST BE ANNOTATED -
FARE RESTRICTION MAY APPLY - IN THE ENDORSEMENT BOX.

Category 19: Discounts​

ACCOMPANIED CHILD 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
FOR CHILDREN TURNING 12 YEARS ENROUTE ADULT FARE
HAS TO BE USED FOR THE ENTIRE JOURNEY.
OR - INFANT UNDER 2 WITH A SEAT - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF THE
FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT
OR - INFANT UNDER 2 WITHOUT A SEAT - CHARGE 10 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - IN AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
FOR INFANTS TURNING 2 YEARS ENROUTE- FOR THOSE
SECTORS TO BE TRAVELLED AFTER REACHING TWO YEARS
OF AGE- INFANTS ARE REQUIRED TO OCCUPY A SEAT .
COMBINATION OF A NO SEAT FARE -S- AND AN INFANT
BOOKED SEAT FARE -S- OR CHILDS FARE -S- IS
PERMITTED WITHIN AN ITINERARY BUT NOT WITHIN A
FARE COMPONENT.
OR - UNACCOMPANIED CHILD 8-11. ID REQUIRED - CHARGE 75
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
UNACCOMPANIED CHILD UNDER 8 YEARS OF AGE WILL NOT
BE ACCEPTED FOR CARRIAGE. SERVICE CHARGE FOR
UNACCOMPANIED CHILD APPLIES.THE SERVICE WILL
BE OFFERED ONLY ON AC OPERATING FLIGHTS

Category 21: Agent Discounts​

NOTE -
DISCOUNT APPLY.

Category 21: Agent Discounts​

NOTE -
DISCOUNTS MAY BE PERMITTED
REFER TO ACPEDIA PAGE
BLACKOUT PERIODS MAY APPLY.

Category 23: Miscellaneous Fare Tags​

NOTE -
THE CHARGE FOR LOST TICKETS IS AS FOLLOWS--
USD 75.00
CAD 100.00
EUR 100.00

Category 31: Voluntary changes​

IN THE EVENT OF CHANGES TO TICKETED FLIGHTS
BEFORE DEPARTURE OF JOURNEY - APPLIES WITHIN TKT VALIDITY
CERTAIN DOMESTIC REISSUE PROVISIONS MAY BE OVERRIDDEN BY
THOSE OF ANY CARRIERS INTERNATIONAL FARES
NO CHARGE OR HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED FARE
COMPONENTS- CATEGORY 19 DISCOUNTS APPLY AND
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT WHEN TKT WAS ISSUED
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. NO CHANGE TO 1ST FLIGHT COUPON
2. AC ANY FARE TYPE EXCEPT EOU/ERU ARE USED
3. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
4. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
OR -
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT TODAY
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. AC ANY FARE TYPE EXCEPT EOU/ERU ARE USED
2. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM REISSUE DATE TO DEPARTURE
OF PRICING UNIT
WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND RESIDUAL THEN
ADD-COLLECT - REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT
ENDORSEMENT BOX- HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND NEW ENDORSEMENTS.
OR -
AFTER DEPARTURE OF JOURNEY - APPLIES WITHIN TKT VALIDITY
CERTAIN DOMESTIC REISSUE PROVISIONS MAY BE OVERRIDDEN BY
THOSE OF AC INTERNATIONAL FARES
NO CHARGE OR HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED FARE
COMPONENTS- CATEGORY 19 DISCOUNTS APPLY AND
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT WHEN TKT WAS ISSUED
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. FULLY FLOWN FARE NOT REPRICED TO FURTHER POINT
2. AC ANY FARE TYPE EXCEPT EOU/ERU ARE USED
3. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
4. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND RESIDUAL THEN
ADD-COLLECT - REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT
ENDORSEMENT BOX- HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND NEW ENDORSEMENTS.

Category 33: Voluntary cancellations​

FARE IS FULLY REFUNDABLE WITHIN 24 HOURS AFTER
RESERVATIONS. REFUND MUST BE REQUESTED BEFORE DEPARTURE
OF JOURNEY.
NO CHARGE. IF ALL PENALTIES IN PRICING UNIT ARE PER
PRICING UNIT COLLECT HIGHEST. IF MIX OF PER FARE
COMPONENT AND PER PRICING UNIT CALCULATE EACH AS PER
PRICING UNIT AND COLLECT HIGHEST.
REFUND REQUEST MUST BE LESS THAN ONE YEAR AFTER TICKET
ISSUANCE. FORM OF REFUND - ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT. ONLY
VALIDATING CARRIER MAY REFUND TICKET.
REPRICE USING EQUAL OR HIGHER RBD.
OR -
NO CHARGE. IF ALL PENALTIES IN PRICING UNIT ARE PER
PRICING UNIT COLLECT HIGHEST. IF MIX OF PER FARE
COMPONENT AND PER PRICING UNIT CALCULATE EACH AS PER
PRICING UNIT AND COLLECT HIGHEST.
REFUND REQUEST MUST BE LESS THAN ONE YEAR AFTER TICKET
ISSUANCE. FORM OF REFUND - ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT. ONLY
VALIDATING CARRIER MAY REFUND TICKET.
REPRICE FLOWN PORTION USING FARES IN EFFECT ON TICKET
ISSUANCE DATE. FOR FULLY FLOWN FARE COMPONENTS FARE BREAK
POINTS MAY NOT BE CHANGED. FOR PARTIALLY FLOWN FARE
COMPONENTS ONLY DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS MAY BE
CHANGED. REPRICE USING NORMAL/SPECIAL ONE WAY/ROUND TRIP
FARES/ANY RULE/FARE CLASS/EQUAL OR HIGHER RBD. PUBLIC
FARES ARE USED IF TICKETED FARE IS IN PUBLIC TARIFF.
QUALIFIED PRIVATE FARES OR PUBLIC FARES ARE USED IF
TICKETED FARE IS IN PRIVATE TARIFF. NEW FARE FOR FULLY
FLOWN FARE COMPONENTS MUST BE EQUAL TO OR HIGHER THAN
TICKETED FARE.

Category 50: Application​

AIR CANADA FULL FLEXIBLE FARES //-A-//
APPLICATION
AREA
THESE FARES APPLY
FROM AREA 2/AREA 3 TO AREA 1.
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR BUSINESS CLASS SERVICE.
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
THE CARRIER SHALL LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PASSENGERS CARRIED
ON ANY ONE FLIGHT AT FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE AND SUCH
FARES WILL NOT NECESSARILY BE AVAILABLE ON ALL FLIGHTS.
THE NUMBER OF SEATS WHICH THE CARRIER SHALL MAKE
AVAILABLE ON A GIVEN FLIGHT WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE
CARRIERS BEST JUDGMENT
OTHER CONDITIONS
SEQUENTIAL USE OF FLIGHT COUPONS -
THIS FARE IS ONLY VALID IF THE FLIGHTS ARE TAKEN
IN THE BOOKED SEQUENCE.
OTHERWISE THE FARE WILL BE RECALCULATED BASED ON
THE ACTUAL FLIGHT ROUTING.

Almost no passengers ever look at this. They're not bothered. They have no intention of using any of that guff or trying to understand it. Nearly everyone on the railway just buys a ticket against an itinerary and sticks to it, regardless of the fare.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Airline fares are often extremely complex; the point is, many passengers will never ever want or need to use any of the flexibility, refundability, rebooking, or stopover (break of journey) options.

Yes and no. Plenty of people for instance get dropped off at a station nearer their destination. Northern Penalty Fares or prosecutes those people if they do so on an Advance, and there is no scope to change the origin or destination of an Advance to legitimise this bar wasting potentially hundreds of pounds on a new ticket. And I have heard of (though not often) staff refusing to let people through gatelines on Advances to pop to the shops between trains.

Those rights are important for those technicalities, as it comes across as incredibly petty when things are enforced in that sort of manner - and there is no need for them to be so enforced as it isn't really losing the railway anything in 99.9999% of cases.

So do we absolutely 100% need walk up Off Peak fares as they are? Probably not much as they remain my preferred ticket. Do we need its price cap at affordable levels* and slightly more friendly/less downright petty T&Cs on Advances now they are the default fare in medium to long distance travel? Absolutely we do.

* I don't doubt that LNER would also like to get rid of the London-Edinburgh Anytime Single, because it's actually not that unreasonable a fare for the level of flexibility it provides, being per mile about half the price of the London to Manchester Anytime. £1000 single during the Fringe? I don't doubt that they'd want to be able to do that.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,693
Location
LBK
Yes and no. Plenty of people for instance get dropped off at a station nearer their destination. Northern Penalty Fares or prosecutes those people if they do so on an Advance, and there is no scope to change the origin or destination of an Advance to legitimise this bar wasting potentially hundreds of pounds on a new ticket. And I have heard of (though not often) staff refusing to let people through gatelines on Advances to pop to the shops between trains.

Those rights are important for those technicalities, as it comes across as incredibly petty when things are enforced in that sort of manner - and there is no need for them to be so enforced as it isn't really losing the railway anything in 99.9999% of cases.
It sounds more like what is needed is common sense applicable in context, rather than the absolute right to break your journey on the cheapest ticket.

In any case, it is not permissible to prosecute or penalty fare someone for breaking their journey when not entitled; the only disposal available is an excess to the appropriate fare which does allow break of journey.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,439
Location
Yorks
Airline fares are often extremely complex; the point is, many passengers will never ever want or need to use any of the flexibility, refundability, rebooking, or stopover (break of journey) options. Here's an example of a one way London to Toronto fare:

​


Almost no passengers ever look at this. They're not bothered. They have no intention of using any of that guff or trying to understand it. Nearly everyone on the railway just buys a ticket against an itinerary and sticks to it, regardless of the fare.

I expect the proportion of people who use flexibility for airline travel is considerably smaller than those that use it for medium and long distance rail travel, certainly in this country.

And even if comparatively fewer people use fares flexibility than stick to an itinerary, that's no reason not to provide it as a product.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It sounds more like what is needed is common sense applicable in context, rather than the absolute right to break your journey on the cheapest ticket.

Common sense is that break of journey should never be prohibited if we are moving to an LNER style approach. There is no reason to ever prohibit people popping to the shops or for a smoke between booked trains (which is all BoJ is on an Advance ticket), it is just petty and makes the railway look extremely stupid. While relying on staff being sensible inevitably ends in tears, because a significant minority of staff have no common sense whatsoever.

There is absolutely nothing rational to say that if I have, on A-B-C, a through Advance, I shouldn't be able to pop out while changing at B, despite the fact that I could if I had separate A-B and B-C Advances which are probably cheaper anyway.

And if it turns out (rare) that a London to Edinburgh ticket is a bit cheaper than London-Newcastle and one person saves a couple of quid by doing that, who cares? Just bump the fares up a bit overall so your overall income is what you want it to be and stop worrying about it. It's easier to do that in a mostly Advances situation without anyone really noticing, another reason LNER likes the scheme. The main situation where you'd get an Advance being way cheaper than a shorter journey was inter-TOC competition at specific stations, and now DfT gets all the revenue (OAOs aside*) there is no need for this to persist in any form.

The railway is almost surpassing Ryanair in the ability to be utterly, utterly petty, and needs to pack it in as it benefits nobody.

* Another reason not to have OAOs, then.... :)
 
Last edited:

crablab

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2020
Messages
1,300
Location
UK
And if it turns out (rare) that a London to Edinburgh ticket is a bit cheaper than London-Newcastle and one person saves a couple of quid by doing that, who cares? Just bump the fares up a bit overall so your overall income is what you want it to be and stop worrying about it
Yup. Exactly.
This is what I mean by:
The "complexity" in the system that doesn't work well is mainly around restriction codes, TOC only fares, routeing and some of the more esoteric fare types. These all look good on paper for the industry, but are unfathomable to the general public and contribute to the impression of arbitrariness & that the railway is a racket.
There are lots of complex rules to prevent imagined edge cases which hardly anyone understands. These can often be seen as arbitrary and capricious, especially where some of the guerilla gateline enforcement is involved.

Maybe people wouldn't feel so fleeced if they didn't experience the "ah-ha! But actually your ticket isn't valid because... [insert technical fares policy point]" on a semi-regular basis.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There are lots of complex rules to prevent imagined edge cases which hardly anyone understands. These can often be seen as arbitrary and capricious, especially where some of the guerilla gateline enforcement is involved.

I like this terminology. Some gateline staff absolutely love it when they catch somebody, and if that somebody has no ticket at all (or has wilfully and fraudulently bought a Railcard ticket for a Railcard they don't have, never did have or weren't entitled to) then I'm all for it. But if you get a buzz from catching out someone who has a ticket invalid on a tiny technicality that is the exact problem of making the railway into Ryanair - but not only that an inconsistent Ryanair*. The best way to deal with this is just not to have those technicalities as far as possible.

* Save 20p by buying the wrong Northern Advance or buy on board? £100 please. Ignore "reservations compulsory"? No consequence.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,603
And if it turns out (rare) that a London to Edinburgh ticket is a bit cheaper than London-Newcastle and one person saves a couple of quid by doing that, who cares? Just bump the fares up a bit overall so your overall income is what you want it to be and stop worrying about it.
It's generally other passengers that worry about this (cue "it's unfair"), not the operators. As the operators will have a view of how demand will react to fares, they may well not give two hoots about someone winning so long as it works in the round.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,627
Location
Wales
Nearly everyone on the railway just buys a ticket against an itinerary and sticks to it, regardless of the fare.
Nearly everyone? Those above a certain distance perhaps, but even they often plan to catch a particular train out but aren't set on which train to return on.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's generally other passengers that worry about this (cue "it's unfair"), not the operators. As the operators will have a view of how demand will react to fares, they may well not give two hoots about someone winning so long as it works in the round.

Other people whining about it doesn't cause the person who did it to get a Penalty Fare or prosecution. Yes, I know, it's meant to be an excess, but that isn't what is happening in the real world in some cases.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,693
Location
LBK
Nearly everyone? Those above a certain distance perhaps, but even they often plan to catch a particular train out but aren't set on which train to return on.
On long distance, yes, people's plans are mostly fixed. The industry's own research bears this out; even 15 years ago Virgin West Coast were finding that among flexible ticket holders who had selected an itinerary, well over 80% of them were using the train on their itinerary.

Most passengers value simplicity and predictability; there is a subset of passengers who do value flexibility, for sure - but I'm not sure there are lots of people in that group *who cannot find a flexible fare* and feel "imprisoned" by being unable to navigate a booking site. The real kicker is in the railway's predilection for Byzantine off peak restrictions, like "not valid before 0942 at A B C D E F G". Sack it all off. The real reforms need to be around the peak and shoulder peak - something which was in the works in 2012 (!!) and has still not come to fruition.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Most passengers value simplicity and predictability; there is a subset of passengers who do value flexibility, for sure - but I'm not sure there are lots of people in that group *who cannot find a flexible fare* and feel "imprisoned" by being unable to navigate a booking site. The real kicker is in the railway's predilection for Byzantine off peak restrictions, like "not valid before 0942 at A B C D E F G". Sack it all off. The real reforms need to be around the peak and shoulder peak - something which was in the works in 2012 (!!) and has still not come to fruition.

What form did these take? Surely if most are happy with an Advance it's dead easy to do, just smooth the curve using Advances?
 

thedbdiboy

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2011
Messages
1,213
Yes and no. Plenty of people for instance get dropped off at a station nearer their destination. Northern Penalty Fares or prosecutes those people if they do so on an Advance, and there is no scope to change the origin or destination of an Advance to legitimise this bar wasting potentially hundreds of pounds on a new ticket. And I have heard of (though not often) staff refusing to let people through gatelines on Advances to pop to the shops between trains.

Those rights are important for those technicalities, as it comes across as incredibly petty when things are enforced in that sort of manner - and there is no need for them to be so enforced as it isn't really losing the railway anything in 99.9999% of cases.

So do we absolutely 100% need walk up Off Peak fares as they are? Probably not much as they remain my preferred ticket. Do we need its price cap at affordable levels* and slightly more friendly/less downright petty T&Cs on Advances now they are the default fare in medium to long distance travel? Absolutely we do.

* I don't doubt that LNER would also like to get rid of the London-Edinburgh Anytime Single, because it's actually not that unreasonable a fare for the level of flexibility it provides, being per mile about half the price of the London to Manchester Anytime. £1000 single during the Fringe? I don't doubt that they'd want to be able to do that.

It sounds more like what is needed is common sense applicable in context, rather than the absolute right to break your journey on the cheapest ticket.

In any case, it is not permissible to prosecute or penalty fare someone for breaking their journey when not entitled; the only disposal available is an excess to the appropriate fare which does allow break of journey.
One of the things that the ORR report has finally blown wide open is the complete lack of consistency across TOCs. 10 years ago this would have probably been dealt with by a few 'commitments' and a 10-point-plan everyone forgot about after 5 minutes, but this report has landed as GBR is being mobilised, meaning that it can feed into a point of real industry change, including a consistent approach to ticket rules and understanding the spirit of them. A proper, industry wide set of training and customer service standards would do more to help actual passengers than any number of rules written where most people don't look (and I'm not saying we don't need rules, but frankly if you have to carry them around and argue with every member of gate line staff, it's hardly conducive to a pleasant experience).
 

crablab

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2020
Messages
1,300
Location
UK
The real kicker is in the railway's predilection for Byzantine off peak restrictions, like "not valid before 0942 at A B C D E F G". Sack it all off. The real reforms need to be around the peak and shoulder peak - something which was in the works in 2012 (!!) and has still not come to fruition.
Absolutely, which as I've said above are out of step with modern customer requirements.
And...
The best way to deal with this is just not to have those technicalities as far as possible
...is spot on.

The root cause of many gateline issues is that the fares data is so complex that it's very difficult to program gatelines to operate properly on all tickets that are valid. It's mind-boggling that this situation is allowed to persist.

The fares data is so full of hacks.
TOC only routeing restrictions? Hack.
Easements? Hack (routeing guide isn't expressive enough)
Negative easements? Hack on top of a hack (oops, we've accidentally made something possible we don't want to permit)
Time restrictions? In some cases, hack (electronic data says different to written text)
Split tickets? Hack.

The system feels unfair and complex because the industry likes to create this impenetrable web. Adding more ticket types (like the 70 Minute Flex) makes the issue worse, and not better.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,603
Other people whining about it doesn't cause the person who did it to get a Penalty Fare or prosecution. Yes, I know, it's meant to be an excess, but that isn't what is happening in the real world in some cases.
My view is that there are two separate issues here. One is about enforcement, where reasonableness has gone out of the window in favour of a nasty passive aggressive approach where wrong tickets are either ignored or very strong measures taken. That needs fixing as part of making the railway more attractive, and would do so no matter what.

The other is the "deal" of an advance purchase reduction. The principle, largely being forgotten in self-interested ways by both consumers and operators, is that there is a deal where a reduced fare is offset by a more restrictive ticket. That is the airline model, and enforcement is also contentious there.

I've scant sympathy for people who sign up to a fixed itinerary, properly declared to them at the point of purchase, and then complain that they don't have the flexibility they wanted. But I also feel that many of the discounts against the benchmark fare are so limited that the deal isn't really worth the candle - especially if enforcement, where it comes, is going to be cack handed and heavy.
Absolutely, which as I've said above are out of step with modern customer requirements.
And...

...is spot on.

The root cause of many gateline issues is that the fares data is so complex that it's very difficult to program gatelines to operate properly on all tickets that are valid. It's mind-boggling that this situation is allowed to persist.

The fares data is so full of hacks.
TOC only routeing restrictions? Hack.
Easements? Hack (routeing guide isn't expressive enough)
Negative easements? Hack on top of a hack (oops, we've accidentally made something possible we don't want to permit)
Time restrictions? In some cases, hack (electronic data says different to written text)
Split tickets? Hack.

The system feels unfair and complex because the industry likes to create this impenetrable web. Adding more ticket types (like the 70 Minute Flex) makes the issue worse, and not better.
Absolutely. But those hacks and simplifications are a consequence of trying to manage a complex environment on flexible tickets. If we simplify to remove many of those constraints (I exclude TOC-only tickets without a fixed itinerary, which belong in their own circle of hell), there will be knock-on consequences - including increases in the lowest fares.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,693
Location
LBK
The system feels unfair and complex because the industry likes to create this impenetrable web. Adding more ticket types (like the 70 Minute Flex) makes the issue worse, and not better.
One of the more odd ways that the 70 min flex is bad can be summarised thus:

If the 0500 train, which takes 4 hours, is £150, and the 0600 train, which takes 4h30m, is £120 on 70 min flex - why would anyone buy the train they wanted to catch? A customer having this "hack" explained to them would be confused as to why it exists. The entire feel of the structure is counterintuitive, and it actually breeds a lack of confidence in the railway overall. What other random stuff hacks are they missing out on? Where else are they overpaying for their journeys?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,439
Location
Yorks
On long distance, yes, people's plans are mostly fixed. The industry's own research bears this out; even 15 years ago Virgin West Coast were finding that among flexible ticket holders who had selected an itinerary, well over 80% of them were using the train on their itinerary.

Most passengers value simplicity and predictability; there is a subset of passengers who do value flexibility, for sure - but I'm not sure there are lots of people in that group *who cannot find a flexible fare* and feel "imprisoned" by being unable to navigate a booking site. The real kicker is in the railway's predilection for Byzantine off peak restrictions, like "not valid before 0942 at A B C D E F G". Sack it all off. The real reforms need to be around the peak and shoulder peak - something which was in the works in 2012 (!!) and has still not come to fruition.

20% strikes me as a significant proportion varying their itinerary.
 

crablab

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2020
Messages
1,300
Location
UK
The entire feel of the structure is counterintuitive, and it actually breeds a lack of confidence in the railway overall. What other random stuff hacks are they missing out on? Where else are they overpaying for their journeys?
Exactly. And, taking this specific example, you can see why people would then be rightly quite upset if (hypothetically) they applied the same logic you've done to the 16-25 minimum fare and were then prosecuted for using the ticket on an earlier train where the "hidden" term made it invalid.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
frankly if you have to carry them around and argue with every member of gate line staff, it's hardly conducive to a pleasant experience).

There shouldn't be any cases where the spirit of the rules differs from the letter of them. It's not hard to write rules that accurately and succinctly express what you want to actually happen. The railway just isn't very good at it.

See also the fact that we STILL have textual time restrictions on restriction codes that are unimplementable. That some of these have existed for 20+ years just shows wild incompetence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

One of the more odd ways that the 70 min flex is bad can be summarised thus:

If the 0500 train, which takes 4 hours, is £150, and the 0600 train, which takes 4h30m, is £120 on 70 min flex - why would anyone buy the train they wanted to catch? A customer having this "hack" explained to them would be confused as to why it exists. The entire feel of the structure is counterintuitive, and it actually breeds a lack of confidence in the railway overall. What other random stuff hacks are they missing out on? Where else are they overpaying for their journeys?

This isn't a problem with having the 70 minute flex, it's a problem with incompetently* defining how it is priced (or creating a ticket that railway systems can't price in a way that prevents those anomalies).

That is, in the example you give, the 70 Minute Flex should be £150**, not £120, i.e. at the level of the most expensive fare in the time band within which it is valid, determined at the time of purchase. But railway systems can't do that so the fudge is to make it a flat £20 more.

** Or maybe a little more, but not less.
* A great many things about the LNER trial are incompetent, such as not having coordinated quotas with XC so London-Edinburgh itineraries with a change tend to come up as just the Anytime fare, the only way to get a sensible price on them being to split.
 
Last edited:

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,603
There shouldn't be any cases where the spirit of the rules differs from the letter of them. It's not hard to write rules that accurately and succinctly express what you want to actually happen. The railway just isn't very good at it.

See also the fact that we STILL have textual time restrictions on restriction codes that are unimplementable. That some of these have existed for 20+ years just shows wild incompetence.
Incompetence? Or simply an institutional refusal to contemplate this from a customer stand point, and devote the effort required to do it properly?

I normally choose cock-up over conspiracy, but this might be one place I go the other way - except that I don't think it's that deliberate either. Maybe "malign neglect" would sum up the industry viewpoint.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,909
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Incompetence? Or simply an institutional refusal to contemplate this from a customer stand point, and devote the effort required to do it properly?

I normally choose cock-up over conspiracy, but this might be one place I go the other way - except that I don't think it's that deliberate either. Maybe "malign neglect" would sum up the industry viewpoint.

I would say a culture of disregard for the quality of customer experience pervades most of the railway and has done for years, to be honest, from esoteric fare policies to bad designs of seating. I suppose you could see it as wilful incompetence I suppose.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,603
I would say a culture of disregard for the quality of customer experience pervades most of the railway and has done for years, to be honest, from esoteric fare policies to bad designs of seating.
To my certain knowledge, at least 70 years - a BR divisional manager telling my grandfather, representing the City Corporation in discussions about post-war rebuilding, that "we are not here for the convenience of our passengers".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top