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360 running speed

Railperf

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Can't see this happening for the simple reason that St Albans is part of the route and they have a bigger and much louder voice.

Unless the EMR services add St Albans to their calling pattern and then there would be issue with overcrowding.

Also can't imagine Harpenden would be too pleased to see their travel times increase, or face having to use St Albans as an interchange station - something that happened during the era of the TL expresses cutting out Harpenden.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Tonight the 1647 EMR Connect from St Pancras was delayed due to the 1636 Thameslink being kept on the fast line beyond Radlett. Thankfully the bus I wanted at Luton was also delayed.
There are no circumstances under which this makes sense. It would signficiantly reduce capacity on the line, significantly increase journey times for most Thameslink passengers on the line, and cost the industry a significant amount of lost revenue - at least £100m a year.
What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

Being a user of MML services -particularly to Luton airport, i am aware that there is a choice between a slower Thameslink service or hot fotting it over to the main line station with aim of getting on the faster EMR connect. If I'm boarding at Farringdon, it is a choice between the inconvenience of humping bags out at St Pancras hoping that the EMR train is on time - as opposed to staying on Thameslink and accepting possibly 10 minute slower journey overall. The whole proecedure of switching Thameslink to EMR platforms probably loses 10 minutes in itself, and you need to be on the platform 5 to 10 minutes before departure to find a seat - allowing time even to walk to the front of the EMR train.

How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now? Did revenue fall? I've never read anywhere that there was a huge drop of ridership from these towns for that decision. Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.
 
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InTheEastMids

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?
In their East Midlands Route Study, published in 2016, Network Rail outlined a number of possible interventions. Obviously these are considering a pre-pandemic world where HS2 would reach Toton...

- Grade separation at Leagrave for southbound trains
- Grade separation at Harpenden for northbound trains
- Additional platform/turnback south of Bedford (Leagrave was identified as a potential site)

However, none of these seem to have been picked up as immediate priorities. They were several other schemes that subsequently have not happened (Leicester Capacity, Bedford Station and Syston-Manton)

The report is linked below.
 

DarloRich

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noting various speed discussions above, and of course OT, how did an HST perform over the sections of track quoited? I assume slowest of all of the traction types listed?
 

Spartacus

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

Being a user of MML services -particularly to Luton airport, i am aware that there is a choice between a slower Thameslink service or hot fotting it over to the main line station with aim of getting on the faster EMR connect. If I'm boarding at Farringdon, it is a choice between the inconvenience of humping bags out at St Pancras hoping that the EMR train is on time - as opposed to staying on Thameslink and accepting possibly 10 minute slower journey overall. The whole proecedure of switching Thameslink to EMR platforms probably loses 10 minutes in itself, and you need to be on the platform 5 to 10 minutes before departure to find a seat - allowing time even to walk to the front of the EMR train.

How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now? Did revenue fall? I've never read anywhere that there was a huge drop of ridership from these towns for that decision. Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.

Personally I'd be tempted to cut the Luton services back to Kentish Town. The whole thing seems to run a huge deal better when that's been done for differing reasons. Is the pretty minor connectivity benefit for stations between St Albans and West Hampstead really worth the headway and junction margin compromises? Northbound they manage to be right behind at St Albans terminator at St Albans, and right in front of one when leaving West Hampstead, southbound they're right behind one from Bedford at Luton, right in front of one starting St Albans at St Albans, and right behind one at West Hampstead.
 

Bald Rick

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays?

The crossings slow to fast etc do not create delays. They (sometimes) amplify delays that have already been created. If the railway ran on time, there would be no delays from the crossing movements. So, to answer your question, to improve reliability you need to do all the things the railway does to do that.

To reduce the reactionary delays, my answer is ETCS (coming in the next decade) and extending the ATO for Thameslink services out to Cricklewood on both Fast and slow lines. Whilst it won’t solve it, it will help enormously. The impact of ATO in the core is very noticeable on punctuality. My train tonight made up 7 minutes between London Bridge and Kentish Town through being in ATO.


Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

Yes. It makes best use of fast line capacity, and uses that capacity a) where it is needed (the first 30 miles from London) and b) where it generates a significant amount of revenue.


There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

There are a few examples, but none as severe as what you propose, nor serving stations with the passenger numbers and revenue of the MML commuter belt. Your proposal would not result in increased frequency - quite the opposite in fact - and the journey times would almost double for many passengers.

The stations between Luton and StAlbans already have, essentially, a turn up and go service of between 12-15tph in the peaks and 10tph off peak. If all Thameslinks went slow line it would be a maximum of 12tph peak, 8tph off peak. St Albans would see a near doubling of journey times (northbound) from a typcal 18 minutes to 34 minutes and fewer services, Harpenden would also see a journey time increase of 16 mins and a reduction in services, Radlett, Elstree and Mill Hill see an increase of 5-6 minutes. Luton Airport would have (at best) the same number of services but 80%+ of them would have much longer journey times. These journey times increases would apply all day.

It would crucify revenue.


How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now?

They haven’t lost the bulk of their ‘intercity’ services. They have gained services for their most importsnt market, ie London. Granted they are not of Intercity stock (although fairly soon it will feel like it), but they have more services, to a more regular clockface timetable. And more seats, meaning they are much more likely to travel incomfort, rather than in the gangway of a Mark 3 coach.

Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.

Milton Keynes has more stops in the Long distance services - to a regular pattern - than it ever has had, with 4 an hour. Watford has never had routine stops in long distance services to London, which is by far its biggest market. The relatively few northbound non-Birmingham services that stopped there before 2008 have largely gone, but frankly that was a minor market.


Personally I'd be tempted to cut the Luton services back to Kentish Town.

And halve the frequency of peak services to Brent Cross, Mill Hill, Elstree and Radlett?
 

Spartacus

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And halve the frequency of peak services to Brent Cross, Mill Hill, Elstree and Radlett?

OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak, just as does Corby REALLY require a half hourly service to London, particularly off peak?

I know it's something for a different thread but the route's just so congested that nothing has to go wrong or to be particularly late for delays to happen and pile up. A minute at a station here or there and headways or junction margins are compromised, a bit slow clearing out at St Albans and the Luton behind's delayed, freight a little slow going in at Limbury Road, or coming out at Radlett or Elstow, and that's assuming there's not problems in Brighton, or Edinburgh delaying a Cross Country which delays the EMR out of Sheffield which delays GTR from Bedford coming out at Harpenden which delays the one from Luton right behind it.

To me the timetable has many of the same hallmarks of the chaotic TPE timetable from a few years back, though without the ill thought out traincrew diagrams which weren't so much the straw that broke the camel's back as the ruddy great log. Like a house of card it's impossible for it to be robust as it is, not least because of the position of the fast and slow lines (not that that's likely to change, not that we ever thought Transpennine, the Mirfield area in particular, would ever get the money invested to make the desired frequency a reliable possibility which it is getting), and reality there are a fair few issues with planning rules compliance, which only don't come to light more because trains are usually later than the compliance is out.

I've got to say though, 7 minutes back in ATO's good going, especially after a lot of disruption due to the bridge strike, which were you on?
 
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InTheEastMids

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OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak, just as does Corby REALLY require a half hourly service to London, particularly off peak?
Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.
 

Spartacus

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.

Going well down the speculative burrow but the alternate one running Corby - Bedford, remaining on the slows, could at least be timed to connect with the GTR service, and might provide some impetus to have stations built for Oakley and Rushden, making it politically more palatable.
 

43066

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.

Absolutely this.

Plus there is a lot of potential for future growth with all the house building going on in the Kettering/Corby area. The next step will be to lengthen the 360s to twelve cars as demand picks up, and the upgraded facilities at Cauldwell (hopefully) allow better fleet availability.
 

Bald Rick

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OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak

Try it, you’d be surprised how busy they are. Off peak trains routinely have people standing. Can be crush loaded at weekends.

I've got to say though, 7 minutes back in ATO's good going, especially after a lot of disruption due to the bridge strike, which were you on?

That’s pretty standard to be honest. It’s not all ATO, some of it is performance allowance either side of the core, and some of it is the driver being sharp on dwells (I wish they all were…). And it relies on a clear run. ATO itself prob saves about 3 mins.
 

AM9

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Try it, you’d be surprised how busy they are. Off peak trains routinely have people standing. Can be crush loaded at weekends.
That also applies to the later evening off-peak where the fasts still have about 1/2 to 2/3 of seats occupied when arriving at St Albans on the 21:50, 22:05 & 22:20 ex St Pancras. I think that many here just don't appreciate how much traffic the fast Thamelink services (and the Metros) do carry throughout the day.
 

Kite159

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
I wonder how much of that growth is down to Corby & other stations in that area now having ticket barriers. Also growth due to increase service from 1tph of a 5 coach 222 to 2tph of mostly 8 coach 360s, making the train more appealing
 

voyager1

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The journey home Friday evening was interesting on the 1647 EMR. I was tracking the delayed TL 1636 and thought "oh no, not again," and when we left St Pancras, I only then noticed the 1621 TL was very delayed and in front of the 1636. I saw it waiting at the junction just before the West Hampstead tunnel for us to pass and thought "on another night, that train would have been let out in front of us to stop at West Hampstead and P4 St Albans to add 5-10 minutes on to our journey,"

I also wondered why sometimes if a Thameslink is that late, it gets turned into a whoosher (skipping stops to make up time) and other times it doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Plus there is a lot of potential for future growth with all the house building going on in the Kettering/Corby area. The next step will be to lengthen the 360s to twelve cars as demand picks up, and the upgraded facilities at Cauldwell (hopefully) allow better fleet availability.

I thought there wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 360s to 12 cars?

Could we end up with the 350s from the WCML now they're getting these 730 trains?
 

43066

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The journey home Friday evening was interesting on the 1647 EMR. I was tracking the delayed TL 1636 and thought "oh no, not again," and when we left St Pancras, I only then noticed the 1621 TL was very delayed and in front of the 1636. I saw it waiting at the junction just before the West Hampstead tunnel for us to pass and thought "on another night, that train would have been let out in front of us to stop at West Hampstead and P4 St Albans to add 5-10 minutes on to our journey,"

I also wondered why sometimes if a Thameslink is that late, it gets turned into a whoosher (skipping stops to make up time) and other times it doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



I thought there wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 360s to 12 cars?

Could we end up with the 350s from the WCML now they're getting these 730 trains?

There’s enough for some 12 car workings, which was originally envisaged. The 350s would make more sense in some ways, as they’re gangwayed, but there are no plans to bring those to the MML.

Wasn't it an issue with one of the unions threatening strike action over 12 coach 360 working unless a member of staff was present in each unit?

There was an agreement reached along the lines of having an RPI in one unit on 12 car workings. It’s all academic at the moment in any case due to stock availability.
 

swt_passenger

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I thought there wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 360s to 12 cars?

Could we end up with the 350s from the WCML now they're getting these 730 trains?
It’s a 3 hour round trip including layovers, so 6 sets are required for the service. Running most but not all as 12 car isn’t too onerous in terms of a typical EMU utilisation of 85%, but I think it would be for the peaks only with reduction to 8 during the off peaks.

I’m sure 12 car running was given as the reason why they took all 21 units when the decision was first made, 21 would be far too many for a permanent 8 car service, ie only 57% utilisation.
 
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Railperf

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Any news on additional driver training for EMR connect drivers in anticipation of the use of the new 110mph limits?
 

Supercoss

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Class 360 already operate at 110 mph north of Bedford.
12 car formations originally planned but industrial relations required a safety critical member of staff on each set as the units have no end gangway, driver up front, train manager in back nobody on centre unit
12 cars have run e c s thoughIMG_3477.jpeg
 

voyager1

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I’m sure 12 car running was given as the reason why they took all 21 units when the decision was first made, 21 would be far too many for a permanent 8 car service, ie only 57% utilisation.
Sometimes they struggle to run 8 cars. I've seen days where a lot of services are reduced to 4 cars.
 

Brubulus

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Class 360 already operate at 110 mph north of Bedford.
12 car formations originally planned but industrial relations required a safety critical member of staff on each set as the units have no end gangway, driver up front, train manager in back nobody on centre unit
12 cars have run e c s thoughView attachment 181616
Yet other operators run 12 car trains, without end gangways DOO. Nothing to do with safety, just preventing 12 car operation for limited reason (no jobs are at risk by operating 12 carriages, since no trains operate 12 car with 3 staff)
 

43066

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Yet other operators run 12 car trains, without end gangways DOO. Nothing to do with safety, just preventing 12 car operation for limited reason (no jobs are at risk by operating 12 carriages, since no trains operate 12 car with 3 staff)

Except that, as noted above, outline agreement was reached regarding staffing arrangements for 12 car operations. What other operators do isn’t particularly relevant. The company isn’t currently looking at 12 car ops as far as anyone on the traincrew side has been told.
 

voyager1

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A couple of times, I thought I'd try 9R44 (the 1636 TL from St Pancras)

I tried last Friday out of curiosity and tonight (Wednesday) when 1Y45 (1647 EMR Connect from St Pancras) was short formed to 4 cars.

Both times 9R44 used platform 2 at St Albans and both times, the train stopped outside St Albans for what seemed a few minutes. According to the rail apps, there was nothing on platform 2 at St Albans. What happened here? Was there an out of service train just sitting there waiting for someone to move it. Might also explain why 9R44 sometimes uses P4 if its not for delayed slow stoppers or crossing over at Radlett affects a southbound train.
 

Vexed

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I tried last Friday out of curiosity and tonight (Wednesday) when 1Y45 (1647 EMR Connect from St Pancras) was short formed to 4 cars.

Both times 9R44 used platform 2 at St Albans and both times, the train stopped outside St Albans for what seemed a few minutes. According to the rail apps, there was nothing on platform 2 at St Albans. What happened here? Was there an out of service train just sitting there waiting for someone to move it.
For slow movements Traksy / OTT maps can be a bit misleading, as the train will step out of the berth as soon as it passes the signal, but then in this case move very slowly over the pointwork into the St Albans Centre Siding. This makes the platform look empty on maps when in fact the back of the train is still in it.

Last Friday, 20 June, 9O48 (forming 5V61) stepped from the plat 2 berth to the sidings 3 1/2 late at 16:57:32, which is when it looks clear on the maps. It is then around to 2 mins to get into the sidings and clear the platform. This means the platform is physically clear instead of just being clear on the maps at about 16:59:30. Your train, 9R44, then stepped into the platform berth at 17:00:06. So that seems pretty good to me ~30 seconds for route to be set, points to move, and your train to accelerate towards wherever the track circuit is that triggers the step.

You're sort of correct with an out of service train - in front of you 9O48 was 2 mins late into the platform and then gained a further 1.5 minutes delay so probably the train being cleared or the driver change took longer than usual. In my experience the replacement driver is nearly always there in good time so I'd lean towards the train taking longer than usual to clear out. If looking at the maps note the signallers don't usually update the headcode to the ECS movement in and out the sidings, so there will be a class 9 headcode in there when it's actually an out of service class 5.

If you use OTT maps you can see the routes set for this area. A system called TORR will release (unset) the route once the train going into the sidings has passed over the points. When this happens the green set route will disappear on the map, meaning at this point platform 2 is actually clear and ready for signaller to set the route and the points to move over instead of the berth looking empty.

TORR = Train Operated Route Release
Berth = The black boxes on Traksy / OTT maps which (usually) show the headcode in the associated signal section
Step = Automatic movement of a headcode when one berth to another as trains pass through signal sections
 

voyager1

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For slow movements Traksy / OTT maps can be a bit misleading, as the train will step out of the berth as soon as it passes the signal, but then in this case move very slowly over the pointwork into the St Albans Centre Siding. This makes the platform look empty on maps when in fact the back of the train is still in it.

Last Friday, 20 June, 9O48 (forming 5V61) stepped from the plat 2 berth to the sidings 3 1/2 late at 16:57:32, which is when it looks clear on the maps. It is then around to 2 mins to get into the sidings and clear the platform. This means the platform is physically clear instead of just being clear on the maps at about 16:59:30. Your train, 9R44, then stepped into the platform berth at 17:00:06. So that seems pretty good to me ~30 seconds for route to be set, points to move, and your train to accelerate towards wherever the track circuit is that triggers the step.

You're sort of correct with an out of service train - in front of you 9O48 was 2 mins late into the platform and then gained a further 1.5 minutes delay so probably the train being cleared or the driver change took longer than usual. In my experience the replacement driver is nearly always there in good time so I'd lean towards the train taking longer than usual to clear out. If looking at the maps note the signallers don't usually update the headcode to the ECS movement in and out the sidings, so there will be a class 9 headcode in there when it's actually an out of service class 5.

If you use OTT maps you can see the routes set for this area. A system called TORR will release (unset) the route once the train going into the sidings has passed over the points. When this happens the green set route will disappear on the map, meaning at this point platform 2 is actually clear and ready for signaller to set the route and the points to move over instead of the berth looking empty.

TORR = Train Operated Route Release
Berth = The black boxes on Traksy / OTT maps which (usually) show the headcode in the associated signal section
Step = Automatic movement of a headcode when one berth to another as trains pass through signal sections
Thanks for this excellent response. Tonight was definitely longer than Friday and when we left St Albans, I did see a train in the siding.

I've been looking at the OpenTrainTimes map this evening and starting to get the hang of things as best as one can do without formal training. I watched St Albans station and if I understood correctly (I'm just a commuter), 9V68 pulled on to platform 2, then went into the berth, goes out of service and then re-enters service on Platform 1 as 9O79.

I guess when 9R44 approaches the points at Radlett, the system has to decide whether to move it over to the slow line or keep it on the fast line - and this is decided by what that St Albans stopper is doing (i.e. if its late along the route) or whether moving it will force southbound services to stop.

Whenever it is kept on the fast line to use P4 at St Albans, does it always get moved over at Harpenden no matter what - or is there something (i.e. a delayed southbound East Midlands) that would keep it on the fast line through to Luton?

The more I learn about this, the more interesting it looks.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks for this excellent response. Tonight was definitely longer than Friday and when we left St Albans, I did see a train in the siding.

I've been looking at the OpenTrainTimes map this evening and starting to get the hang of things as best as one can do without formal training. I watched St Albans station and if I understood correctly (I'm just a commuter), 9V68 pulled on to platform 2, then went into the berth, goes out of service and then re-enters service on Platform 1 as 9O79.

I guess when 9R44 approaches the points at Radlett, the system has to decide whether to move it over to the slow line or keep it on the fast line - and this is decided by what that St Albans stopper is doing (i.e. if its late along the route) or whether moving it will force southbound services to stop.

Whenever it is kept on the fast line to use P4 at St Albans, does it always get moved over at Harpenden no matter what - or is there something (i.e. a delayed southbound East Midlands) that would keep it on the fast line through to Luton?

The more I learn about this, the more interesting it looks.

couple of things - there is no ‘system’ that decides the route at Radlett, that is down to the signaller at West Hampstead (who may receive instructions from their supervisor, or control at either Derby or Three Bridges)

Second, 9R44 is booked slow line at Radlett, if it doesnt go over there it will almost always switch at Harpenden, albeit that will delay an up service from Corby. The next opportunity north of Harpenden is Leagrave; if it switches there it will have delayed the following down Corby by 5-6 minutes if both are on time.
 

voyager1

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couple of things - there is no ‘system’ that decides the route at Radlett, that is down to the signaller at West Hampstead (who may receive instructions from their supervisor, or control at either Derby or Three Bridges)

Second, 9R44 is booked slow line at Radlett, if it doesnt go over there it will almost always switch at Harpenden, albeit that will delay an up service from Corby. The next opportunity north of Harpenden is Leagrave; if it switches there it will have delayed the following down Corby by 5-6 minutes if both are on time.
I thought it was automated now? (I remember someone mentioning something called automatic route setting about a year or so ago) and that this ARS system had the intelligence of a washing machine rather than some AI system?

Does control alternate between West Hampstead, Derby and Three Bridges? I remember a long time ago someone said “it depends who is on shift," what path 9R44 takes.
 

edwin_m

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I thought it was automated now? (I remember someone mentioning something called automatic route setting about a year or so ago) and that this ARS system had the intelligence of a washing machine rather than some AI system?

Does control alternate between West Hampstead, Derby and Three Bridges? I remember a long time ago someone said “it depends who is on shift," what path 9R44 takes.
ARS is provided at many signalling centres but not all. It is deliberately programmed to follow a specific set of strategies that are worked out by the operators - would you really want some software that routinely invents facts to be thinking up "innovative" ways to route your train?
 

Bald Rick

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I thought it was automated now? (I remember someone mentioning something called automatic route setting about a year or so ago) and that this ARS system had the intelligence of a washing machine rather than some AI system?

Does control alternate between West Hampstead, Derby and Three Bridges? I remember a long time ago someone said “it depends who is on shift," what path 9R44 takes.

ARS is not in use at West Hampstead. A version of it will be soon, but not yet.

West Hampstead controls the signalling from St Pancras to Sharnbrook (north of Bedford) and the signallers dontril the signalling equipment. It is managed by the East Mids Route of NR, who have an operational control in Derby. The Network Rail operational controllers there can instruct the signallers on what regulating decisions to make. There is another operstional control at Three Bridges, this has operational control over the NR Sussex Route which includes the core. GTR (Thameslink) service controllers are based there, and they can also make service decisions which are then communicated to the signaller at West Hampstead to route trains accordingly.

The important thing is that the signaller controlling Radlett (the Luton workstation) only controls a relatively short stretch of line (just south of Elstree to just north of Luton), whereas the operational contol at Derby is overseeing the whole network from St Pancras to Nottingham and almost Sheffield plus various other routes to Skegness, Lincoln, Stoke, Nuneaton, Mansfield etc. The service control at Three Bridges is overseeing all GTR services (Thamselink, Southern, Great Northern and Gat Express).
 

voyager1

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23 Oct 2012
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ARS is provided at many signalling centres but not all. It is deliberately programmed to follow a specific set of strategies that are worked out by the operators - would you really want some software that routinely invents facts to be thinking up "innovative" ways to route your train?
I imagine as AI evolves, there could be a time when an AI system could be doing all this and far quicker than a human can. However I can't imagine it would ever reach the UK and by the time it does, railway lines as we know them may already be obsolete.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

ARS is not in use at West Hampstead. A version of it will be soon, but not yet.

West Hampstead controls the signalling from St Pancras to Sharnbrook (north of Bedford) and the signallers dontril the signalling equipment. It is managed by the East Mids Route of NR, who have an operational control in Derby. The Network Rail operational controllers there can instruct the signallers on what regulating decisions to make. There is another operstional control at Three Bridges, this has operational control over the NR Sussex Route which includes the core. GTR (Thameslink) service controllers are based there, and they can also make service decisions which are then communicated to the signaller at West Hampstead to route trains accordingly.

The important thing is that the signaller controlling Radlett (the Luton workstation) only controls a relatively short stretch of line (just south of Elstree to just north of Luton), whereas the operational contol at Derby is overseeing the whole network from St Pancras to Nottingham and almost Sheffield plus various other routes to Skegness, Lincoln, Stoke, Nuneaton, Mansfield etc. The service control at Three Bridges is overseeing all GTR services (Thamselink, Southern, Great Northern and Gat Express).
Someone said ARS was rolled out last year at the West Hampstead control room - I thought it was around Christmas time 23 or 24 (I can't remember the exact year) but I remember on the first day after, there was confusion at Luton station in the morning when the 0643 to Brighton that normally calls at P1 was directed to P4 and the station staff were confused, saying it was a new system. Unless it was some other system I'm thinking of?

If, say, the 9R44 (1636 TL) is running 11 minutes late and ends up leaving St Pancras at about the same time as the 1Y45 (1647 EMR) - I've experienced it when they normally hold up the Thameslink at Carlton Road junction to let the EMR Connect pass and other times, they'll let the Thameslink in front of the EMR Connect - not always 1Y45 but previous services that had equivalent clashes (I always used to remember catching an 1800 Meridian that arrived in Luton at 1822 and sometimes it used to clash with a Thameslink that was timetabled to leave St Pancras at 1746 and if it were running late. I've been using this line for 13 years, been logging my journeys into an Excel file that now has over 2000 rows.
 
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Bald Rick

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Someone said ARS was rolled out last year at the West Hampstead control room - I thought it was around Christmas time 23 or 24 (I can't remember the exact year) but I remember on the first day after, there was confusion at Luton station in the morning when the 0643 to Brighton that normally calls at P1 was directed to P4 and the station staff were confused, saying it was a new system. Unless it was some other system I'm thinking of?

It is a new control system - computer / VDU based, but the signaller still does the work. In the first few weeks and months there was a learning curve for the signallers (even with plenty of time on the simulators , the real world needs lesrning).


If, say, the 9R44 (1636 TL) is running 11 minutes late and ends up leaving St Pancras at about the same time as the 1Y45 (1647 EMR) - I've experienced it when they normally hold up the Thameslink at Carlton Road junction to let the EMR Connect pass and other times, they'll let the Thameslink in front of the EMR Connect

Different circumstances mean different results.
 

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