Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Railperf]

It’s a bit more than that when you look at the changes.
Compared to both PS and EPS there are so many changes in speed so ensuring the drivers are competent seems sensible, although the way the whole project has gone, I am sure there will be plenty more twists and turns.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2025 ==

Norton Bridge to Crewe will have the MU signs uncovered this weekend meaning Stafford to Weaver will be visible.

All other signs south of Stafford will be done over the next nine weeks ready for September.

Are Avanti likely to start driver training by September? Who defines all the new braking points and is this worked out on computer or is it worked out by a senior team of driver managers and then validated before training commences. For the first section Weaver to Crewe and VV the info I received suggests that the MU profile will match EPS. It is only on the spur onto / off Runcorn where a combined EPS limits exists and therefore the 80x drops to PS of 85mph where EPS emains at 100mph.

 

[Tilting007]

Are Avanti likely to start driver training by September? Who defines all the new braking points and is this worked out on computer or is it worked out by a senior team of driver managers and then validated before training commences. For the first section Weaver to Crewe and VV the info I received suggests that the MU profile will match EPS. It is only on the spur onto / off Runcorn where a combined EPS limits exists and therefore the 80x drops to PS of 85mph where EPS emains at 100mph.

I am sure Avanti have adequate plans, however as I do not work for them I cannot say. The drivers have to be competent for the route and signed off. They can’t just be sent out to find their way. If they will be trained by September or not will need to be confirmed by someone who works there.
The 805/807 seems to running fine with plenty of drivers trained. September sees more Liverpool services introduced.

There are still Network Change objections and bridge resonance issues to resolve too.

It isn’t identical on the down, a small section of MU 120 where EPS remains 125 and the turnouts at Weaver have no MU speed. Up is 125 MU where it is EPS 125.

New MU signage complete between Norton Bridge and Crewe as per WON and Sectional Appendix this weekend.

 

[Belperpete]

I have spotted the odd mention on this thread of problems with coupling/uncoupling these Evero units - is anything being done about this? I occasionally travel on services along the N. Wales Coast, and all my recent journeys have been delayed due to problems uncoupling units. Yesterday was particularly bad - we lost 30 minutes at Chester waiting for the sets to be uncoupled. No announcements explaining what was going on until just before we finally departed. And to rub salt into the wound, a TfW service to Holyhead left from another platform while we were all locked in.

Coupling and uncoupling also seems to cause problems with the seat reservation system. They usually all vanish once the sets are uncoupled at Chester. And going the other way, from Holyhead, it is common for the reservations to only get displayed after the sets are coupled at Chester.

 

[The Chimaera]

Are Avanti likely to start driver training by September? Who defines all the new braking points and is this worked out on computer or is it worked out by a senior team of driver managers and then validated before training commences. For the first section Weaver to Crewe and VV the info I received suggests that the MU profile will match EPS. It is only on the spur onto / off Runcorn where a combined EPS limits exists and therefore the 80x drops to PS of 85mph where EPS emains at 100mph.

The drivers themselves will work out what new braking points to use and everyone will probably do it slightly differently.
I wouldn’t expect much time saving at least initially until people can get in to a new routine. Even then some of the shorter raises in linespeed might not be really worth the extra power being used to reach them. Time will tell.

 

[DJH1971]

Any more news on 807010?

 

[800001]

Any more news on 807010?

No. Still at factory

 

[Railperf]

some of the shorter raises in linespeed might not be really worth the extra power being used to reach them.

The timetable will have been designed around the sectional running times based on achieving all the speeds defined in the MU profile. Unless any train is running early, it will need to run as close to the MU profile as possible to meet the timetable without eating into the various additional engineering allowances. Avanti have publicly said the final profile is smoothed out from what is ultimately possible - primarily to avoid too many changes of speed for drivers . Behind the scenes calculations will have been done also to avoid excessive energy usage where only marginal time is gained.

 

[The Chimaera]

The timetable will have been designed around the sectional running times based on achieving all the speeds defined in the MU profile. Unless any train is running early, it will need to run as close to the MU profile as possible to meet the timetable without eating into the various additional engineering allowances. Avanti have publicly said the final profile is smoothed out from what is ultimately possible - primarily to avoid too many changes of speed for drivers . Behind the scenes calculations will have been done also to avoid excessive energy usage where only marginal time is gained.

It will interesting monitoring the performance of the 800’s under the new MU profile. I expect the times to vary quite a lot initially depending on the mindset of the driver. Even when driving within the ‘Professional Driving Policy’ driving styles vary a surprising amount. Some drivers focus on a smooth ride above everything else whilst others will try to extract every second from the performance of the train. Over time the difference between the two extremes will no doubt narrow. The ‘people’ perspective is often forgotten.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Because the total order was larger, with 13 805s and 10 807s. Overall, it is an increase in fleet size, especially on a seat number basis.

There was no need for 20 221s anyway, as multiple diagrams were under the wire all day anyway

Okay great. As long as capacity is still there's that's a good thing.

 

[Tilting007]

The drivers themselves will work out what new braking points to use and everyone will probably do it slightly differently.
I wouldn’t expect much time saving at least initially until people can get in to a new routine. Even then some of the shorter raises in linespeed might not be really worth the extra power being used to reach them. Time will tell.

Drivers will be seeing the signs now they are being uncovered in stages along the route. Even though not permitted to drive at them they will be able to see the speed changes…

 

[cambsy]

Looked other day at the Network Rail Sectional appendix for WCML South and north, and no sign of new MU speeds on there, so hope see them soon on there.

 

[Tilting007]

Looked other day at the Network Rail Sectional appendix for WCML South and north, and no sign of new MU speeds on there, so hope see them soon on there.

There is if you look between Norton Bridge and Weaver. All commissioned and SA updated.

 

[cambsy]

Just looked on Network Rail website, public Sectional Appendix PDF, and its still showing 110/125 EPS, so still same 125 for Pendo’s and 110 all other trains, it may be showing on official railway workers etc part but not public bit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is if you look between Norton Bridge and Weaver. All commissioned and SA updated.

They are not in the publicly-viewable and downloadable pdfs (most recent on that stretch is dated 1 Jan 2025).

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20June%202025/London%20North%20Western%20(North)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20June%202025.pdf

 

[cambsy]

Here screenshot of Sectional apeendix.

 

[Tilting007]

Here screenshot of Sectional apeendix.

Aah apologies - the publicly accessible one must not have been updated.
You will have to take my word the ‘internal SA’ is updated and looks quite clogged with changes for some of the areas updated.

 

[cambsy]

Tilting007, how soon do you think the MU Speeds be publicly viewable? Im looking forward to seeing the 805’s-807’s being driven at these speeds and how how well they keep to the new linspeeds.

 

[Tilting007]

Tilting007, how soon do you think the MU Speeds be publicly viewable? Im looking forward to seeing the 805’s-807’s being driven at these speeds and how how well they keep to the new linspeeds.

No idea - I have only used the internal one so I am not aware how much of a lag there is. I will try and find out.
The endeavour is September when there is a further increase in the number of Liverpool services.
If AWC are in a position to pass out drivers by then and the issues are resolved remains to be seen.
All signs are now being uncovered in stages.

 

[Zakaria Fadel]

Any updates on 807010?

 

[1D54]

Any updates on 807010?

See post #4, 065

Still at factory.

 

[Railperf]

It will interesting monitoring the performance of the 800’s under the new MU profile. I expect the times to vary quite a lot initially depending on the mindset of the driver. Even when driving within the ‘Professional Driving Policy’ driving styles vary a surprising amount. Some drivers focus on a smooth ride above everything else whilst others will try to extract every second from the performance of the train. Over time the difference between the two extremes will no doubt narrow. The ‘people’ perspective is often forgotten.

The WCML South is a very congested railway and only a slight delay from other trains or infrastructure issue causes more variance in timings than any difference in driving style.
On the first day of Class 730/2 operation - for instance - a late arriving train conductor caused a 10 min delay for the LNWR service that had an effect on the services behind it. Class 80x drivers will need to run pretty flat out to stay ahead of faster trains behind. although the Mu rofile does allow some 110+ MPH running, any delay will directly impact any service coming up behind. Even at MU speeds, there will still be 5-6 minutes difference between full 125mph running and the mixture of PS and MU speeds eventually used by 80x.
In terms of driving styles, i know a driver manager training people on 80x and he has to try and 'correct the driving styles of people that come from other 'intercity' routes because they got into certain driving habits on their former TOC's that are hard to break. And on his TOC, those driving styles will not maintain the timetable and progressively will lose time.

 

[Pendomonium]

The WCML South is a very congested railway and only a slight delay from other trains or infrastructure issue causes more variance in timings than any difference in driving style.
On the first day of Class 730/2 operation - for instance - a late arriving train conductor caused a 10 min delay for the LNWR service that had an effect on the services behind it. Class 80x drivers will need to run pretty flat out to stay ahead of faster trains behind. although the Mu rofile does allow some 110+ MPH running, any delay will directly impact any service coming up behind. Even at MU speeds, there will still be 5-6 minutes difference between full 125mph running and the mixture of PS and MU speeds eventually used by 80x.
In terms of driving styles, i know a driver manager training people on 80x and he has to try and 'correct the driving styles of people that come from other 'intercity' routes because they got into certain driving habits on their former TOC's that are hard to break. And on his TOC, those driving styles will not maintain the timetable and progressively will lose time.

Interesting that the TOC has been previously teaching a very cautious, over defensive, approach to driving and is now requiring a "harder" approach. This was one of the concerns. A whole generation of WCML driver has only ever known defensive driving with a TASS protected 390.

 

[Railperf]

Interesting that the TOC has been previously teaching a very cautious, over defensive, approach to driving and is now requiring a "harder" approach. This was one of the concerns. A whole generation of WCML driver has only ever known defensive driving with a TASS protected 390.

There is no suggestion any TOC will change their defensive driving approach. What I'm trying to say is that drivers adopt their own driving styles sometimes even more defensive than how they are taught. So when moving to a new TOC with new traction, the driver trainers find that they have to try and recalibrate them otherwise they will lose time on the schedules of the new trains that they operate. We are not taking about Avanti here either. I'm guessing everyone at Avanti on the 80x project has is even more cautious because the 80x have no speed supervision device and ORR are breathing down their necks to ensure that overspeeding does not accidentally happen.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

There is no suggestion any TOC will change their defensive driving approach. What I'm trying to say is that drivers adopt their own driving styles sometimes even more defensive than how they are taught. So when moving to a new TOC with new traction, the driver trainers find that they have to try and recalibrate them otherwise they will lose time on the schedules of the new trains that they operate. We are not taking about Avanti here either. I'm guessing everyone at Avanti on the 80x project has is even more cautious because the 80x have no speed supervision device and ORR are breathing down their necks to ensure that overspeeding does not accidentally happen.

I though the 80xs had speed set?

 

[Benjwri]

I though the 80xs had speed set?

The issue is with them following the tilting speeds rather than non tilting. The speed set is manual (apart from the 125 upper limit), so doesn’t stop them getting the limit itself wrong.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

The issue is with them following the tilting speeds rather than non tilting. The speed set is manual (apart from the 125 upper limit), so doesn’t stop them getting the limit itself wrong.

Isn’t it always set at the upper limit of 125 to discourage over reliance on manual adjustments?

 

[Railperf]

I though the 80xs had speed set?

They have a speed hold device which the driver has a choice of using or not. In any case, the fleet are currently limited to 109, mph through a soft limiter. But there are lots of places where non-tilting trains need to reduce speed. You wouldn't want to be doing 109mph through Atherstone for instance.

An experienced retired Avanti driver says that there are a lot of diagrams where the speed set might not be used because drivers will coast to dissipate time, especially where they know that they are approaching a junction - and they need to arrive at the junction at the right time to hit their slot through it. Using speed set might mean an early arrival and sitting at red signals.

Then again, some train operating companies encourage early running because under certain circumstances they may even be allowed ahead of their booked path.

 

[sjm77]

I though the 80xs had speed set?

Isn’t it always set at the upper limit of 125 to discourage over reliance on manual adjustments?

Well there was also the TPEx famous overspeed where (from what I remember), the driver thought that their 'speed set' was on, but it wasn't.

 

[Falcon1200]

My first trip on an 807 today. A perfectly comfortable and well-performing train, but (and apologies if this has been discussed in the previous 136 pages) just half a coach of First Class, and half a coach of Standard Premium, on the hourly Liverpool/Euston service? Not impressed with that!

 

[hexagon789]

My first trip on an 807 today. A perfectly comfortable and well-performing train, but (and apologies if this has been discussed in the previous 136 pages) just half a coach of First Class, and half a coach of Standard Premium, on the hourly Liverpool/Euston service? Not impressed with that!

There is the second additional Pendolino service as well, albeit only 4 each way currently, but 4 more each way being added in September.

Originally the 807s weren't having Std Prem, just First as per the 805s.