Alternative Diagrams for the TFW Mk4

[Topological]

In the Trip Reports section there is often discussion of why the 16:30 from Manchester is advertised to go to Swansea, but in fact goes to Cardiff on short term alteration most days. This means that any passengers for Swansea face a tight connection or a long wait.

The constraints on the diagrams are that one must end in Holyhead, two must end in Crewe and two must end in Canton. Other than that presume that anything is possible.

For reference, the current diagrams are

D1

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - Cardiff 17.54
1W65 18.47 Cardiff - Manchester 22.21

—————————————————————————
D2

1W11 04.32 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

—————————————————————————
D3

1W13 05.43 Swansea - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

—————————————————————————
D4

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W55 08.47 Cardiff - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

—————————————————————————
D5

1V33 06.27 Manchester - Cardiff 10.01
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

My suggestions initially:

D1 becomes:

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

D2 becomes:

1W11 07:30 Crewe - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Cardiff to Crewe on 1W11 can become a balancing move now that the 20:07 unit is replaced by a Mk4.

D3 becomes:

1W13 06.38 Cardiff - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

D4 becomes:

1XXXX Cardiff to Swansea (IN SERVICE)
1W55 07.45 SWANSEA - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

D5 becomes:

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - SWANSEA 19.00
1WXX 19:15 SWANSEA - Manchester 23:15


Now D1 and D2 finish in Cardiff. D3 finishes in Holyhead and D4 and D5 finish in Manchester.
D3 and D4 start in Cardiff, D1 starts in Holyhead and D2 and D5 start in Crewe.

(Times of "NEW" services at Swansea are approximated)

Following much helpful discussion, the easier solution involves the following:

D1 becomes:

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

D2 becomes:

1W11 06:50 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13 (1W11 Cardiff-Shrewsbury as a unit)
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

D3 becomes:

1W13 06:38 Cardiff - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

D4 becomes:

1XXX Cardiff to Swansea (IN SERVICE)
1W55 07.45 SWANSEA - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

D5 becomes:

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - SWANSEA 19.00
1WXX 19:15 SWANSEA - Manchester 23:15

This still leaves two issues:

The 18:55 to Manchester, which needs a unit. It could be argued that the current ability to substitute for Mk4 makes it possible, but that is open for debate. It does at least cycle a unit up to Chester. Having the 18:55 as a unit also means it no longer matters that there is no unit on the 20:07.

The 04:11 (1W11) Cardiff to Shrewsbury will use the 2-car from 1W12. 1W12 would run as a 3-car to Shrewsbury. The two units attach to run the rest of the diagram. I write this as someone who uses 1W12 and knows that 3-car is enough to Shrewsbury, but not from there.

 

[Jez]

I like the idea of there being a 0745 SWANSEA to Manchester. This service was always very busy when it was a 3 car 175. I think the 0543 is far too early to be of much use really. More people would experience the excellent First Class experience if the 0853 started at Swansea.

I also like the idea of a 1915 SWANSEA to Manchester. I never understood why the West Wales-Manchester was split into 2 services when its often the same unit that runs it (West Wales to Cardiff and then same unit does 2005 Cardiff-Manchester)

 

[Topological]

I like the idea of there being a 0745 SWANSEA to Manchester. This service was always very busy when it was a 3 car 175. I think the 0543 is far too early to be of much use really. More people would experience the excellent First Class experience if the 0853 started at Swansea.

I also like the idea of a 1915 SWANSEA to Manchester. I never understood why the West Wales-Manchester was split into 2 services when its often the same unit that runs it (West Wales to Cardiff and then same unit does 2005 Cardiff-Manchester)

I have assumed that the West Wales one would continue to Cardiff, as it now arrives in Cardiff well before any 19:15 service.

When I used to do Manchester to Swansea as a commute I would take the 1900 from Swansea and change onto the 20:15 to Manchester (as then was) but that formed from a Maesteg. Under my proposed diagrams the 19:15 becomes about 20:15 from Cardiff (It would be too tight to stay at 20:05 I think)

 

[Jez]

I have assumed that the West Wales one would continue to Cardiff, as it now arrives in Cardiff well before any 19:15 service.

When I used to do Manchester to Swansea as a commute I would take the 1900 from Swansea and change onto the 20:15 to Manchester (as then was) but that formed from a Maesteg. Under my proposed diagrams the 19:15 becomes about 20:15 from Cardiff (It would be too tight to stay at 20:05 I think)

Currently its 1847 to Cardiff Central then 1919 GWR then 1924 Swanline. So would it be possible to fit in a path for a 1915 from Swansea also? Whats the headway between Swansea-Cardiff as both the MK4 and GWR would be fast trains only calling at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend (possibly Pyle for the MK4).

 

[Topological]

Currently its 1847 to Cardiff Central then 1919 GWR then 1924 Swanline. So would it be possible to fit in a path for a 1915 from Swansea also? Whats the headway between Swansea-Cardiff as both the MK4 and GWR would be fast trains only calling at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend (possibly Pyle for the MK4).

The current 14:30 arrives at Cardiff at 17:54. There is currently a 17:51 Swanline.

So given that there is padding in the Cardiff arrival, a departure around 17:50 is possible for the Mk4 to Swansea. In which case it would be following the 17:45 Milford Haven (note neither the 17:51 Swanline, or 17:45 Milford Haven connect with the Manchester arrival).

The unit that presently operates the 17:45 could serve Swanline stations at 17:55*. There is a possible imbalance of a 2-car 197 at Cardiff, but if that is really an issue it can attach to the 3-car that runs the 17:45 and make a 5-car to Swansea.

Ideally, the 18:47 unit could form the Milford Haven at Swansea. That would allow connections in from the Manchester Mk4 which arrives in Swansea at about 18:40 (based on the current 17:45 Milford Haven)

All this means that the Mk4 could go back out from Swansea by 19:00 and hence be well ahead of the GWR.

 

[Harpo]

Alternative diagrams for TfW mk4s? Cardiff to Birmingham. Two birds, one stone.

 

[BillStampy]

D4 becomes:

1XXXX Cardiff to Swansea (IN SERVICE)
1W55 07.45 SWANSEA - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

For this diagram, if the MK4s could stop at all the intermediate stops it could just fill in for 1B30, but if not then they could probably fit in a MK4 for around 0600 off Cardiff (understandably not going to be very well used but an additional service is better than none) Using 1W55 would be a great fit to benefit from the MK4s at 07.45, this service has always been rather full between Swansea and Cardiff as a unit and then the MK4 is never as busy as it could be used for when it departs Cardiff.

 

[43096]

In the Trip Reports section there is often discussion of why the 16:30 from Manchester is advertised to go to Swansea, but in fact goes to Cardiff on short term alteration most days. This means that any passengers for Swansea face a tight connection or a long wait.

The constraints on the diagrams are that one must end in Holyhead, two must end in Crewe and two must end in Canton. Other than that presume that anything is possible.

For reference, the current diagrams are

D1

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - Cardiff 17.54
1W65 18.47 Cardiff - Manchester 22.21

—————————————————————————
D2

1W11 04.32 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

—————————————————————————
D3

1W13 05.43 Swansea - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

—————————————————————————
D4

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W55 08.47 Cardiff - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

—————————————————————————
D5

1V33 06.27 Manchester - Cardiff 10.01
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

My suggestion is to keep D2 and D5 as they are

D1 becomes:

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

D3 becomes:

1W13 06.38 Cardiff - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

D4 becomes:

1XXXX Cardiff to Swansea (IN SERVICE)
1W55 07.45 SWANSEA - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

D5 becomes:

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - SWANSEA 19.00
1WXX 19:15 SWANSEA - Manchester 23:15


The loss of MK4 is on the following pair:

1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Now D1 and D2 finish in Cardiff. D3 finishes in Holyhead and D4 and D5 finish in Manchester.
D3 and D4 start in Cardiff, D1 starts in Holyhead and D2 and D5 start in Crewe.

The 1W61 1V62 pair is substituted as a unit anyway at the moment.

(Times of "NEW" services at Swansea are approximated)

By my reckoning your new diagrams are unbalanced. Three sets start in Cardiff, with two ending there, one starting Manchester/Crewe but two ending there.

You are also not clear on D5, stating that you leave D5 unchanged, but then changing it? If you leave D5 as it is then it balances.

 

[Topological]

By my reckoning your new diagrams are unbalanced. Three sets start in Cardiff, with two ending there, one starting Manchester/Crewe but two ending there.

You are also not clear on D5, stating that you leave D5 unchanged, but then changing it? If you leave D5 as it is then it balances.

I see the problem, there are three starting in Cardiff. Hence there needs to be an update to

D2

1W11 04.32 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Such that it becomes:

D2

1W11 07:30 Crewe - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Cardiff to Crewe on 1W11 can become a balancing move now that the 20:07 unit is replaced by a Mk4.

I think it is right now

Cardiff Start: D3 D4
Holyhead Start: D1
Crewe Start: D2 D5

Cardiff Finish: D1 D2
Holyhead Finish: D3
Crewe Finish: D4 D5

 

[Zomboid]

Where do they get maintained? As in do they all need to cycle through a particular end point?

 

[Jez]

Where do they get maintained? As in do they all need to cycle through a particular end point?

I think they get maintained at Crewe?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I see the problem, there are three starting in Cardiff. Hence there needs to be an update to

D2

1W11 04.32 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Such that it becomes:

D2

1W11 07:30 Crewe - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

What happens to the rest of 1W11 then!?

 

[BillStampy]

What happens to the rest of 1W11 then!?

Make it a unit like it currently does on Saturday, I don't see too many issues with it being rather early in the morning, the busy section I've been told is between Crewe and Manchester. Unless I am mistaken, of course.

Where do they get maintained? As in do they all need to cycle through a particular end point?

Their main maintenace depot is Crewe ATC where they undergo their exams an repairs, Canton does take responsibility for some minor work to get a set back into service or enough to limp it back to Crewe. Holyhead can do some minor work too but main exams are done at Crewe.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Make it a unit like it currently does on Saturday, I don't see too many issues with it being rather early in the morning, the busy section I've been told is between Crewe and Manchester. Unless I am mistaken, of course.

So cancel another train to find a unit to operate a train that then finishes its diagram at Crewe at 07.30 in the morning with nothing else natural to work next.

There aren’t a multitude of spare units in the same way they’re aren’t a multitude of spare mk4s.

Saturdays have a somewhat different resourcing plan with no ‘morning peak’

 

[Topological]

Make it a unit like it currently does on Saturday, I don't see too many issues with it being rather early in the morning, the busy section I've been told is between Crewe and Manchester. Unless I am mistaken, of course.

Their main maintenace depot is Crewe ATC where they undergo their exams an repairs, Canton does take responsibility for some minor work to get a set back into service or enough to limp it back to Crewe. Holyhead can do some minor work too but main exams are done at Crewe.

Yes - Unit

What is now the 20:07 from Cardiff to Manchester is a unit currently so they will be a unit short in the north. Therefore this early train being a unit to Crewe will balance that up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2025 ==

So cancel another train to find a unit to operate a train that then finishes its diagram at Crewe at 07.30 in the morning with nothing else natural to work next.

There aren’t a multitude of spare units in the same way they’re aren’t a multitude of spare mk4s.

Saturdays have a somewhat different resourcing plan with no ‘morning peak’

Presumably from Crewe it would go to Chester.

The current 20:07 must go somewhere after arriving at Piccadilly.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes - Unit

What is now the 20:07 from Cardiff to Manchester is a unit currently so they will be a unit short in the north. Therefore this early train being a unit to Crewe will balance that up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2025 ==


Presumably from Crewe it would go to Chester.

The current 20:07 must go somewhere after arriving at Piccadilly.

The current 20:10 (the last CDF-MAN) runs ECS back to Crewe ATC. It spends about 3 hours on shed, then runs ECS to Shrewsbury to form the 05:38 Shrewsbury to Liverpool Lime Street.

The last ECS movement from a depot/stabling location into Crewe in a morning is the unit which forms the 06:29 CRE-MAN. So if that unit isn't arriving in Crewe until 07:30, what service(s) are you proposing losing in the morning to account for the lack of unit?

 

[Topological]

In that case add the unit to 1W89, the 22:44 Cardiff to Crewe.

That does not prevent a unit being used on 1W11 for Cardiff to Crewe. It can then attach to the Chester train and be sent anywhere once it is in Chester. There will no doubt be some service that needs strengthening. A balancing move can be made by extending one of the southbound trains from Chester near the end of the day.

There are ways to make it work I am sure.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In that case add the unit to 1W89, the 22:44 Cardiff to Crewe.

That does not prevent a unit being used on 1W11 for Cardiff to Crewe. It can then attach to the Chester train and be sent anywhere once it is in Chester. There will no doubt be some service that needs strengthening. A balancing move can be made by extending one of the southbound trains from Chester near the end of the day.

There are ways to make it work I am sure.

Yes there may be a train that you could strengthen using that unit but you would need to cancel a service elsewhere to magically find that additional unit in the first place.

 

[Lewisham2221]

In that case add the unit to 1W89, the 22:44 Cardiff to Crewe.

That does not prevent a unit being used on 1W11 for Cardiff to Crewe. It can then attach to the Chester train and be sent anywhere once it is in Chester. There will no doubt be some service that needs strengthening. A balancing move can be made by extending one of the southbound trains from Chester near the end of the day.

There are ways to make it work I am sure.

That still leaves your unit balance at -1, you've sent the unit up north the previous evening so it's in the right place for 1F91 in the morning, meaning you no longer have a unit to work 1W11.

For as long as you have the Mk4 set sitting in the depot until 07:30, you need to "find" a unit from somewhere - in other words, short form something (taking into account what else those units are diagrammed to do afterwards, including splitting and forming different services and being nowhere near Crewe) or cancel something (considering that you'll almost certainly be cancelling more than one service, when you account for the return working etc).

 

[Topological]

Yes there may be a train that you could strengthen using that unit but you would need to cancel a service elsewhere to magically find that additional unit in the first place.

That unit was the 20:07 and therefore does not need cancelling.

The other option is that the new 19:15 from Swansea to Manchester terminates at Cardiff, but that then unbalances the Mk4. In a world where Canton can take 3 diagrams then that 19:15 would terminate at Cardiff and be there ready for 1W11 the following morning.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That unit was the 20:07 and therefore does not need cancelling.

The other option is that the new 19:15 from Swansea to Manchester terminates at Cardiff, but that then unbalances the Mk4. In a world where Canton can take 3 diagrams then that 19:15 would terminate at Cardiff and be there ready for 1W11 the following morning.

You are missing the point I’m afraid!

You will need to cancel other trains to find a unit to work 1W11 between Cardiff and Crewe as on arrival at Crewe at 07.30 it is too late to just drop onto an existing next working so becomes a totally new unit diagram, which means other trains will have to be cancelled to free up the unit to run your new diagram.

 

[Topological]

That still leaves your unit balance at -1, you've sent the unit up north the previous evening so it's in the right place for 1F91 in the morning, meaning you no longer have a unit to work 1W11.

For as long as you have the Mk4 set sitting in the depot until 07:30, you need to "find" a unit from somewhere - in other words, short form something (taking into account what else those units are diagrammed to do afterwards, including splitting and forming different services and being nowhere near Crewe) or cancel something (considering that you'll almost certainly be cancelling more than one service, when you account for the return working etc).

An option is that 1W12 runs as a 3-car from Cardiff to Crewe and gains the other 2-car (that formed 1W11) at Crewe. That is not perfect because that 2-car would need to be moved out of the way somewhere for most of the hour it is waiting for 1W12 to arrive.

It is quite hard from the outside to find a solution because the public do not have access to all the diagrams.

It is like the timetable where I work. You could say "why not move Lecture X" but then you realise it is an optional unit for another programme that has a clash, and even if that does not cause a problem, there is then another move of a session that is needed to get things back working. That is before you take into account the capacities of various rooms, needs of particular students on accessibility etc. However, movements can and are made by the timetabling team when there is a need.

Given maintenance is in Chester, I do not think that the unit coming off 1W11 is the biggest problem.

As someone who travels through Pontypool and New Inn a lot early morning northboud, the variation in length of the southbound workings is huge. Sometimes they are 5-car, but sometimes they are 3-car or 2-car. This must mean life functions when the two units in the 5-car do not make it to Cardiff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

You are missing the point I’m afraid!

You will need to cancel other trains to find a unit to work 1W11 between Cardiff and Crewe as on arrival at Crewe at 07.30 it is too late to just drop onto an existing next working so becomes a totally new unit diagram, which means other trains will have to be cancelled to free up the unit to run your new diagram.

See the second sentence. The Mk4 forms 1W11 IF a third spot is found at Cardiff (as per the second sentence)

My response to @Lewisham2221 addresses the question of unit imbalance in the south when a new unit forms 1W11.

 

[Caaardiff]

It is quite hard from the outside to find a solution because the public do not have access to all the diagrams.

It is quite hard, because it's been extensively looked into by those that do have access to the diagrams.

See the second sentence. The Mk4 forms 1W11 IF a third spot is found at Cardiff (as per the second sentence)

That won't be happening any time soon, again, because those that deal with have looked into it.


1W11 gets into Crewe at 0728, so misses the 0722 over to Chester, the next option is the 0820 to Chester which gets in at 0839. This arrives into Platform 1 and departs again at 0856. If the units are split then that unit left behind isn't usable until gone 0900 at the earliest. Way too late to strengthen any morning services, and there are no other diagrams that start that late that it could cover.

As much as I agree it would be great to have more Swansea-Manchester services, it's just not easily possible with the Mk4 fleet.

D2 becomes:

1W11 07:30 Crewe - Manchester 08.13
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

The loss of MK4 is on the following pair:

1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

You've said D2 works 1W61/1V62 and also 1W61/1V62 are covered by a unit?
Do you mean 1W65 1855 Cardiff - Manchester & return ECS should be covered by a unit? Where is that unit coming from?
I guess this will balance the 197 from 2005 Cardiff - Manchester, but curious to where it will cover from 1 hour 10 hours early.


1V46 arriving Cardiff 1753 doesn't connect with 1B54 1745 Cardiff - Milford Haven. It also wouldn't connect with 2B81 1753 Cardiff - Swansea (stopper). The Mk4 couldn't work 2B81 as it can't stop at Swanline stations.

 

[Topological]

It is quite hard, because it's been extensively looked into by those that do have access to the diagrams.



That won't be happening any time soon, again, because those that deal with have looked into it.


1W11 gets into Crewe at 0728, so misses the 0722 over to Chester, the next option is the 0820 to Chester which gets in at 0839. This arrives into Platform 1 and departs again at 0856. If the units are split then that unit left behind isn't usable until gone 0900 at the earliest. Way too late to strengthen any morning services, and there are no other diagrams that start that late that it could cover.

As much as I agree it would be great to have more Swansea-Manchester services, it's just not easily possible with the Mk4 fleet.



You've said D2 works 1W61/1V62 and also 1W61/1V62 are covered by a unit?
Do you mean 1W65 1855 Cardiff - Manchester & return ECS should be covered by a unit? Where is that unit coming from?
I guess this will balance the 197 from 2005 Cardiff - Manchester, but curious to where it will cover from 1 hour 10 hours early.


1V46 arriving Cardiff 1753 doesn't connect with 1B54 1745 Cardiff - Milford Haven. It also wouldn't connect with 2B81 1753 Cardiff - Swansea (stopper). The Mk4 couldn't work 2B81 as it can't stop at Swanline stations.

It is good that I had managed to cover 1W61/1V62 with a Mk4.

The 1V46 arrival at Manchester was discussed in the replies. One option is to remove 1B54 and run 1V46 close to its path. Presumably, 1V46 has some padding between Newport and Cardiff as a Cardiff terminator. The Swanline then goes as the Swanline. 1B54 starts in Swansea using the unit that would have been the inward working for the 20:07 to Manchester (that is now Mk4)

I added a third set of diagrams where 1W11 becomes a unit to Shrewsbury and hence that diagram starts in Crewe. The unit would wait at Shrewsbury and join onto 1W12 when it arrived from Cardiff. Essentially you would be using the two 1W12 units across two trains. That removes any diagram imbalance there.

18:55 from Cardiff to Manchester would need a unit. But at least that does not leave a unit short in the north. The unit that no longer forms 1B54 is an option.

The updated diagrams:

D1 becomes:

1V91 05.27 Holyhead - Cardiff 10.13
1W59 12.47 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
1V50 16.30 Manchester - Cardiff 19.52

D2 becomes:

1W11 06:50 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13 (1W11 Cardiff-Shrewsbury as a unit)
1V37 08.30 Manchester - Cardiff 11.55
1W61 14.47 Cardiff - Manchester 18.13
1V62 18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

D3 becomes:

1W13 06:38 Cardiff - Manchester 10.13
1V39 10.30 Manchester - Cardiff 14.02
1W96 17.11 Cardiff - Holyhead 22.06

D4 becomes:

1XXX Cardiff to Swansea (IN SERVICE)
1W55 07.45 SWANSEA - Manchester 12.13
1V42 12.30 Manchester - Cardiff 15.49
1W63 16.47 Cardiff - Manchester 20.15

D5 becomes:

1V31 05.12 Crewe - Cardiff 08.01
1W57 10.47 Cardiff - Manchester 14.13
1V46 14.30 Manchester - SWANSEA 19.00*
1WXX 19:15* SWANSEA - Manchester 23:15

* Times of the Swansea trains remain approximate, as discussed D5 may actually be a bit earlier.

 

[465fan]

Potentially unpopular, but there's something massively lacking in all of this.

The Mark 4 diagrams should just run from Manchester, to my mind.

If Milford Haven runs every two hours, then the second-hour Cardiff should run through to Swansea. Crucial extra capacity, and a much more sensible place to turn them and also connect to onward services. It would also massively improve that Manchester / Crewe / Salop / Hereford and even Newport to Bridgend / Port Talbot / Neath / Swansea corridor, and mean that the catering is available on every other service, marked up in the timetable.

That way, the 'additional' or 'add on' Carmarthen can be a shuttle from Swansea, which seems a lot better, and can be a shorter train. If the timetable could be made to work, you could even make the connection the two-hourly Pembroke. At the moment, that is a stopper between Cardiff and Swansea which seems a bit retrograde.

What you do with the North Wales, well, perhaps actually bring back those 197s with the nicer seats and run those. I don't see the hype or genuine need for the North Wales to Cardiff dining, especially if its just been done for politicians.

 

[Caaardiff]

Potentially unpopular, but there's something massively lacking in all of this.

The Mark 4 diagrams should just run from Manchester, to my mind.

If Milford Haven runs every two hours, then the second-hour Cardiff should run through to Swansea. Crucial extra capacity, and a much more sensible place to turn them and also connect to onward services. It would also massively improve that Manchester / Crewe / Salop / Hereford and even Newport to Bridgend / Port Talbot / Neath / Swansea corridor, and mean that the catering is available on every other service, marked up in the timetable.

That way, the 'additional' or 'add on' Carmarthen can be a shuttle from Swansea, which seems a lot better, and can be a shorter train. If the timetable could be made to work, you could even make the connection the two-hourly Pembroke. At the moment, that is a stopper between Cardiff and Swansea which seems a bit retrograde.

What you do with the North Wales, well, perhaps actually bring back those 197s with the nicer seats and run those. I don't see the hype or genuine need for the North Wales to Cardiff dining, especially if its just been done for politicians.

This would be ideal but there's one obstacle in the way of all of that. The 67's don't have enough fuel range to make it work or would be very tight.

Holyhead is used as a stabling location for one of the sets. Unless space can be found at Crewe, then that's also a non-starter, as there's no space at Canton for another mk4.

 

[Jez]

Personally I would run a lot more MK4's to Swansea.

I realise this is probably not going to be possible due to a variety of reasons discussed at length here and on the MK4 thread but this is a Speculative Discussion thread so this what i would do.

Diagram 1

Start Holyhead - End Crewe

05.27 Holyhead - Swansea 11.30
11.55 Swansea - Manchester 16.13
16.30 Manchester - Swansea 2040
2115 Swansea - Crewe 0029

Diagram 2

Start and End Cardiff

04.32 Cardiff - Manchester 08.13
08.30 Manchester - Swansea 1250
1355 Swansea - Manchester 1815
18.30 Manchester - Cardiff 22.01

Diagram 3

Start Cardiff End Holyhead

ECS to Swansea
05.43 Swansea - Manchester 10.13
10.30 Manchester - Swansea 14.55
1602 Swansea - Holyhead 22.06

Diagram 4

Start and End Crewe

05.12 Crewe - Swansea 0858
0952 Swansea - Manchester 1413
1430 Manchester - Swansea 1846
1905 Swansea - Crewe 2230

Diagram 5

Start Crewe - End Cardiff

ECS Crewe to Manchester
0627 Manchester to Cardiff 0942
1649 Cardiff-Manchester 2015
2030 Manchester to Cardiff 2355


Therefore MK4 depatures from Manchester would be 0627, 0830, 1030, 1430, 1630, 1830 and 2030. All of these aside from 0627 1830 and 2030 would go to Swansea. The 1230 is missing and would be booked for a unit but run through to either Carmarthen or Milford Haven (as would all other departures when a MK4 doesnt run). Bascially a direct service at least as far as Swansea every hour until 1730. Then to Cardiff after that. Ideally both the 1230 would be a MK4 and the 1830 run to Swansea but its unlikely that could happen with 5 sets. In the hours where there is currently a West Wales to Cardiff and now there is a MK4 from Swansea the service from the West would simply terminate and restart at Swansea. There are plenty of other direct Carmarthen-Cardiff services with most Swanlines now running through to Pembroke Dock.

Saturday id do the same but have 4 diagrams and rejig things a bit to exclude the Holyheads. Sundays id do exactly the same timetable as now with 2 MK4 diagrams to Swansea.

 

[Topological]

Personally I would run a lot more MK4's to Swansea.

I realise this is probably not going to be possible due to a variety of reasons discussed at length here and on the MK4 thread but this is a Speculative Discussion thread so this what i would do.

Diagram 1

Start Holyhead - End Crewe

05.27 Holyhead - Swansea 11.30
11.55 Swansea - Cardiff 12.45

Then replace the final part of the diagram with this

1649 Cardiff-Manchester 2015
2030 Manchester to Cardiff 2355

Diagram 5

Start Crewe - End Cardiff

ECS Crewe to Manchester
0627 Manchester to Cardiff 0942

Then replace the final part of the diagram with this:

12:50 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
16.30 Manchester - Swansea 2040
2115 Swansea - Crewe 0029

That should give both sets a bit more time in Cardiff for fueling instead of diagram 1 having a long day.

 

[Jez]

Then replace the final part of the diagram with this

1649 Cardiff-Manchester 2015
2030 Manchester to Cardiff 2355



Then replace the final part of the diagram with this:

12:50 Cardiff - Manchester 16.13
16.30 Manchester - Swansea 2040
2115 Swansea - Crewe 0029

That should give both sets a bit more time in Cardiff for fueling instead of diagram 1 having a long day.

True but it would mean 1 less direct Swansea to Manchester. But if its means more MK4's go to Swansea overall then I will go with that!

Ideally id have liked an 0745 Swansea to Manchester MK4 but at least the current 197 arriving into Cardiff around 0845 would still run from West Wales direct to keep those wanting a 9am start in Cardiff happy. Ideally it needs to be 3 cars at the very least. Currently that one is often 2 cars.

 

[Topological]

True but it would mean 1 less direct Swansea to Manchester. But if its means more MK4's go to Swansea overall then I will go with that!

Ideally id have liked an 0745 Swansea to Manchester MK4 but at least the current 197 arriving into Cardiff around 0845 would still run from West Wales direct to keep those wanting a 9am start in Cardiff happy. Ideally it needs to be 3 cars at the very least. Currently that one is often 2 cars.

You can see the stress that trying to create the 07:45 caused. Though, I worked around it by splitting the 2 units from 1W12 to form both 1W11 and 1W12 as far as Shrewsbury.

Keeping the current West Wales continuing to Cardiff also makes sense. The Mk4 can run in front of the present service. Presumably, it would then not matter if the 197 was a 2-car.