Merseyrail crowned UK's top train operator in 2025 survey

[Bletchleyite]

And the fix would be slashing the timetable to increase turnaround times. No doubt you'd be back moaning about that.

The fix is an extra unit in the Chester circuit as is done in leaf fall season.

 

[Tetchytyke]

An operator who dumps a busy train service when just seven minutes late, and kicks the passengers off at Bhead Central to run nonstop illustrates that this is an operator more happy to fudge the figures than run a service.

Seven minutes late when the trains are every 15 minutes is a significant delay. The most sensible outcome is to run the train fast, get it back on schedule, and go from there. Annoying for one train load of passengers (although some people will be delighted at a non-stop ride home), yes, but the greater good and all that.

What do you propose instead? That they simply shrug their shoulders and have everything running around seven minutes late all day long?

The fix is an extra unit in the Chester circuit as is done in leaf fall season.

But the consequence of that extra unit in the circuit is that the peak extras don't run. So it is swings and roundabouts, really.

10 years on the groom has two daughters but Merseyrail still doesn't have smart card ticketing!

Yes it does. It doesn't have tap on-tap off (TATO) ticketing, but it has smartcard ticketing. I have one in my wallet for when I buy Saveaways.

TATO ticketing will require a lot more work than just Merseyrail, though, as TATO will only be of any real benefit if/when the bus network is integrated into it. If it is just on Merseyrail then it would logically cap out at the Merseyrail day saver price and what would the benefit of that be? The Saveaway, sold on a smartcard, is only a few pence more and so you'd still be best off buying that ticket.

The 777s are already looking scruffy to add to their general rubbishness, and the network retains its general dilapidated feel.

The 777s aren't looking scruffy at all. The worst you could say is that they've now lost the new train shine and the odd seat cover is a bit scuffed where people have put their feet on the seats. I also don't share your hate of the 777s, they're a genuine step up on the 507/508s.

As for the wider network, I wouldn't agree it was dilapidated. A lick of paint wouldn't go amiss, sure, but that's not the same as dilapidation.

It is clear they're having issues with water ingress at the city centre loop stations though, especially James Street and Moorfields.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 777s aren't looking scruffy at all. The worst you could say is that they've now lost the new train shine and the odd seat cover is a bit scuffed where people have put their feet on the seats. I also don't share your hate of the 777s, they're a genuine step up on the 507/508s.

They are probably better than the 507/508s yes, but that is because that design, above the sole bar, is one of the biggest loads of rubbish BR ever produced. Poor seating as built (though fixed by Merseyrail), a tight facing layout when most travel on this sort of train alone and no seats with an acceptable window view.

Super reliable, like the 150, but designed as if the passenger was a nuisance, not someone whose convenience should be one of the top priorities behind only safety.

The London Underground S-stock is the way to do this sort of train. I was very impressed the first time I saw these, and I remain so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2025 ==

As for the wider network, I wouldn't agree it was dilapidated. A lick of paint wouldn't go amiss, sure, but that's not the same as dilapidation.

I'd say the rust all over the relatively new footbridge at Kirkdale was a definite example of dilapidation! But it isn't the only one, the condition of toilets (where provided) is usually poor for another. Yes, there's vandalism, but you do need to keep on top of that as vandalism breeds more vandalism - hence the Tube's recent graffiti issues.

It is clear they're having issues with water ingress at the city centre loop stations though, especially James Street and Moorfields.

This has long been so - the end of manufacturing in the city has caused the water table to rise. A combination of this and the bogies not having sufficient free rotation (I believe) caused a lot of wheel wear on 507/508s in the 1990s - hopefully the 777s have been specced to reduce this.

 

[Djgr]

An operator who dumps a busy train service when just seven minutes late, and kicks the passengers off at Bhead Central to run nonstop illustrates that this is an operator more happy to fudge the figures than run a service. No other UK operator behaves like that. If the timetable can't cope with that delay, fire the planning manager and fix it.

Another shiny new train losing time with a door locked out yesterday night at Moorfields.

As for Transport Focus wasting public money on stupid meaningless awards when they should be concentrating on targeting the failing areas of the wider railway, perhaps it's time government removed their funding.

I would have thought carrying out customer research, finding out what people thought of various TOCs and publicising those doing badly and those doing well is ABSOLUTELY fundamental to their remit.

 

[fandroid]

I would have thought carrying out customer research, finding out what people thought of various TOCs and publicising those doing badly and those doing well is ABSOLUTELY fundamental to their remit.

Definitely, and the view of the actual customers , rather than that of enthusiasts or the staff is the one that really matters.

 

[43096]

What do you propose instead? That they simply shrug their shoulders and have everything running around seven minutes late all day long?

To quote the late Adrian Shooter, have they thought of running the trains on time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool Central today: one gate totally out of use, three with the Metrocard pad broken, out of a total of 5. New lift broken again too.

Busy platforms with excessive staff (4 in total) standing around getting in the way of passenger flows as usual.

This isn't what one expects from the best TOC.

 

[Horizon22]

An operator who dumps a busy train service when just seven minutes late, and kicks the passengers off at Bhead Central to run nonstop illustrates that this is an operator more happy to fudge the figures than run a service. No other UK operator behaves like that. If the timetable can't cope with that delay, fire the planning manager and fix it.

Untrue. Maybe a bit extreme, but plenty of metro operators make service alterations with the 5-10 delay minute threshold.

Minimum turnarounds at destinations aren't great, but do allow a higher tph ultimately.

 

[bramling]

An operator who dumps a busy train service when just seven minutes late, and kicks the passengers off at Bhead Central to run nonstop illustrates that this is an operator more happy to fudge the figures than run a service. No other UK operator behaves like that. If the timetable can't cope with that delay, fire the planning manager and fix it.

To be fair to Merseyrail, recovery isn't easy on parts of their network, and it doesn't help that that the whole operation is run on a shoestring in terms of clearly using the minimum numbers of trains / crews. That said, I hate the detraining/running non-stop as much as anyone, and it isn't really acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to Merseyrail, recovery isn't easy on parts of their network, and it doesn't help that that the whole operation is run on a shoestring in terms of clearly using the minimum numbers of trains / crews. That said, I hate the detraining/running non-stop as much as anyone, and it isn't really acceptable.

There are 2 extremes. Chester is way too tight, while Ormskirk to Central is now up to a tardy 37 minutes from the original 25 and still manages to run late, partly because of excessive pauses before door release and closing which are not seen on any other DOO network.

London Underground would grind to a halt if it operated like this.

 

[43066]

There are 2 extremes. Chester is way too tight, while Ormskirk to Central is now up to a tardy 37 minutes from the original 25 and still manages to run late, partly because of excessive pauses before door release and closing which are not seen on any other DOO network.

London Underground would grind to a halt if it operated like this.

That doesn’t really follow as time to perform station duties etc. should be factored into the timetable.

DOO operators place a big emphasis on checking train is platformed, confirming platform side etc. before releasing doors. Closing and also checking PTI is also a fairly laborious process. Given what has previously on the Merseyrail network you can understand that process being taken seriously there, of all places.

LU are a lot more “relaxed”, but have CSDE etc. I also wonder if that will change as and when someone gets trapped and dragged.

 

[bramling]

The fix is an extra unit in the Chester circuit as is done in leaf fall season.

As ever, who is prepared to pay for this? Merseyrail is run on a shoestring, so this introduces an extra all-day fleet diagram, and no doubt a few extra crew duties, exacerbated by being a two-person operation.

At least Kirkby is a bit better thanks to the Headbolt Lane extension, as previously Central-Kirkby was very difficult to recover naturally during disruption.

Merseyrail has the additional problem that Liverpool Central (Link side) is also a terrible operational bottleneck, but again even here there are things that could ease this but at an operational cost.

Despite my defence of Merseyrail here, I still don’t approve of the skip-stopping. They do it a bit too readily.

 

[Krokodil]

This isn't what one expects from the best TOC.

Perhaps the passengers surveyed have different priorities to you. I suspect that most passengers travelling on the short journeys typical of an urban metro are simply concerned about frequency, punctuality and reliability. If they didn't use a smartcard they won't have noticed or cared about whether the reader was working, and most passengers won't have needed the lift so again won't have noticed that it was broken (I'm not trying to downplay the importance of accessibility for those who need it). If you're only on a train for 15 minutes then you're less likely to care about standing too.

Expectations on a longer journey will be different. If I'm paying through the nose to Crosscountry then I'm not going to be impressed with the state of some of the Voyagers. I would have no tolerance for overcrowding either.

 

[43066]

Liverpool Central today: one gate totally out of use, three with the Metrocard pad broken, out of a total of 5. New lift broken again too.

Busy platforms with excessive staff (4 in total) standing around getting in the way of passenger flows as usual.

This isn't what one expects from the best TOC.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that four staff members are “getting in the way of passenger flows” and I’m sure that, unlike yourself, many see healthy staffing levels as a positive rather then a negative.

It does sound somewhat as though you’re touring around their network building up a “snagging” list, whereas many of those who use the network may well have different priorities, and seem to be very happy with it. It strikes me that Merseyrail is a rare example of a successful UK public transport system in an area well away from London and the South East - that’s surely something to celebrate.

 

[Sheridan]

Liverpool Central today: one gate totally out of use, three with the Metrocard pad broken, out of a total of 5. New lift broken again too.

Busy platforms with excessive staff (4 in total) standing around getting in the way of passenger flows as usual.

This isn't what one expects from the best TOC.

If the platforms are that busy what is 4 staff here or there? Maybe they are getting in the way and that could be improved. But if the platform is as busy as you say then what good will removing them do?

 

[Mr. SW]

For those of you complaining about the state of the MerseyRail network should watch a video like this

This is how I remember it when I first knew it.
It was grim, particularly north of the City.

 

[43066]

To quote the late Adrian Shooter, have they thought of running the trains on time?

Funnily enough running the trains on time is exactly what they’re achieving by skip stopping when inevitable delays do occur. So presumably Adrian Shooter would agree with it…

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair to Merseyrail, recovery isn't easy on parts of their network, and it doesn't help that that the whole operation is run on a shoestring in terms of clearly using the minimum numbers of trains / crews. That said, I hate the detraining/running non-stop as much as anyone, and it isn't really acceptable.

What is the alternative to getting trains back to booked schedules, in your opinion?

 

[390112A]

The network is looking a bit shabby particularly the stations - but there are definitely worse. A lot are in need of a lick of paint and a general tidy up. The loop line stations are all looking a bit untidy lately with yellow/black hazard tape holding various panels and access flaps shut, the obvious issue of ground water seeping in with absorbant mats and rusty smears all over the place.

The 777s are a lot more reliable than they were, but I did notice a lot of LEDs not working on the saloon lights as mentioned above. Some of the earlier accepted units are starting to look at bit grubby on the line (particularly under the seats).

Overall though at least the network is generally usable now.

Natural wear and tear is to be expected. Lick of paints and tidying up will be happening on a rolling basis I would guess, as Moorfields has recently had it's concourse repainted in a new brighter colour scheme. Yes the underground is definitely suffering from whatever water seals they had starting to break down. This however is not a Merseyrail issue but an issue for Network Rail to deal with.

The 777s reliability is definitely improving massively with 51 units of 53 managing to work all day on the Liverpool parade, and normal daily usage approx 47/48 with additional spares.

Liverpool Central today: one gate totally out of use, three with the Metrocard pad broken, out of a total of 5. New lift broken again too.

The Liverpool Central gate line is I think the oldest gate line on the network. Merseyrail is about to replace all Automatic Ticket Gates (ATGs) on the network. The new ATGs will be capable of QR code reading online tickets and will help to introduce the new tap and go system expected in the coming year. So change and improvements are in the pipeline.

 

[bramling]

What is the alternative to getting trains back to booked schedules, in your opinion?

Designing the timetable so there’s sufficient breathing space that run-of-the-mill delays can be absorbed naturally as far as possible, in particular decent layovers at termini. I realise this requires more trains / crews, hence my comments about it being more of a political issue.

Theres also scope to reform trains at crew relief points, again if the crew diagrams are designed in a way which makes this viable. Note that LU run a metro service and don’t skip stops (except occasionally on the Met Line).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the alternative to getting trains back to booked schedules, in your opinion?

The traditional way it was done prior to the 2002 TOC was cancelling a round trip entirely (e.g. pop it out at Kirkdale or Central* and put it back in on time). Running fast was totally unknown.

Whether that is better is rather debatable.

* The reversing siding wasn't used in normal service back then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

If the platforms are that busy what is 4 staff here or there? Maybe they are getting in the way and that could be improved. But if the platform is as busy as you say then what good will removing them do?

They specifically get in the way, e.g. standing near trains and walking across doorways as people alight and in the way of the flow to the escalators.

If they really feel they need three pairs of eyes to dispatch 65m of train maybe* they should look at the old German model of putting them in an elevated glass box out of the way. Meanwhile Thameslink manages 12 cars (nearly four times the length and number of doors) DOO without any of this.

* Not an entirely serious comment

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Your anti merseyrail whinging is almost legendary on this forum

Along with a hatred of 720s, a love of Grammar seats, 350s and takt, a preference for 350 standard over "sham first," and an advocation for names such as "BritRail."

I like Merseyrail but they could do better. With a replacement of the faded, mouldy Rail Alphabet signage, more doubles on the Northern line, contactless payment and things like that, it'd be fantastic.

 

[frodshamfella]

I use Merseyrail fairly often either from Liverpool South Parkway, or on the Wirral, plus sometimes from Seaforth and Litherland. Personally I've always thought them pretty good. I'd like to see their network expanded somewhat.

 

[Statto]

My main bugbare is the Chester branch, trains have a 4 minute layover at Chester which is not great when services are delayed, idealy Merseyrail should have another platform at Chester, so trains can have a 20 minute layover, but thats awkward as P2/P3/P4 are heaverly used throughout the day, another alternitive is build an extra platform on the opposite P7, however thats a bit tricky as those lines are used for stabiling & trains going in & out of the depot

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like Merseyrail but they could do better. With a replacement of the faded, mouldy Rail Alphabet signage, more doubles on the Northern line, contactless payment and things like that, it'd be fantastic.

That's part of my frustration. Aside from the 777's mechanical issues it's all easily fixable with just a little change to spending and staff allocation* priorities and a bit of attention to detail. None of the issues I highlight are hard to fix.

* For instance what's more benefit? Four staff on the platform at Central, the booking offices at Aughton Park and Town Green, or a driver and guard on an extra unit on the Chester? I know what I'd pick.

 

[Horizon22]

Designing the timetable so there’s sufficient breathing space that run-of-the-mill delays can be absorbed naturally as far as possible, in particular decent layovers at termini. I realise this requires more trains / crews, hence my comments about it being more of a political issue.

Theres also scope to reform trains at crew relief points, again if the crew diagrams are designed in a way which makes this viable. Note that LU run a metro service and don’t skip stops (except occasionally on the Met Line).

Well it’s an economic issue more than a political issue. As I said above if there’s enough “breathing space” the train plan will probably lead to a lower frequencies with more layovers at termini as trains will be queuing to enter the destination if they are too long.

LU tend to terminate short / start forward a lot more in their recovery options. The principle is the same just that stations towards the end of the line get a reduced service (in both directions). Also they tend to have an abundance of spare crew at terminals so trains can be in/out within just a minute, recovering much of the turnaround.

The traditional way it was done prior to the 2002 TOC was cancelling a round trip entirely (e.g. pop it out at Kirkdale or Central* and put it back in on time). Running fast was totally unknown.

Yep that’s one method. But is that better? Every single person doesn’t get a service as opposed to some.

From a purely operational view, running fast might mean one train fails its performance schedule but the return runs fine. If you terminate short / start forward, two trains fails their performance schedule. Cancelling is similar.

All options are potentially valid but the best one should be selected based on location / time of day / peak flow / infrastructure constraints / crew restraints etc. Saying one is bad and another isn’t just doesn’t work. In disruptive working there’s no “good” options really! The aim is a fine balance between recovering the timetable in good time whilst not completely shafting passengers.

 

[Djgr]

Perhaps the passengers surveyed have different priorities to you.

Indeed all us on here are a statistical sample of one, however extreme our views.

 

[BurtonM]

The point here is that people don't feel that Merseyrail is a fair comparison to other TOCs with different operating models - and I think that's reasonable as they're not a 'typical' TOC.
Merseyrail doesn't operate in the same way as (any?) other TOCs, the network is isolated and has more in common with a system like the Underground or Tyne and Wear Metro. Short hops on and off.

The users might not be viewing it in the same way as other TOCs either to this end, which could skew the data - if they were asked to compare Merseyrail to other TOCs the results might differ!

It will be interesting to see if the Bee Network services are treated as their own TOC...

 

[Djgr]

The point here is that people don't feel that Merseyrail is a fair comparison to other TOCs with different operating models - and I think that's reasonable as they're not a 'typical' TOC.
Merseyrail doesn't operate in the same way as (any?) other TOCs, the network is isolated and has more in common with a system like the Underground or Tyne and Wear Metro. Short hops on and off.

I don't think it is meant to be fair but it does provide some interrsting pointers.

For example, is it best that an essentially local service TOC manages services in both Chathill and Stoke-on-Trent (230 miles apart), where it is impossible to gain local knowledge, empathy and understanding, even if there were motivation so to do?

Rather than, as ever on this forum, wearily slag off Merseyrail, try to appreciate why it is that people in the real world like them...and learn from it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Designing the timetable so there’s sufficient breathing space that run-of-the-mill delays can be absorbed naturally as far as possible, in particular decent layovers at termini. I realise this requires more trains / crews, hence my comments about it being more of a political issue.

It will also require significant infrastructure changes too, which is the real problem.

I know it's only a temporary service pattern, but look at Ormskirk-Hunts Cross. Trains have about six minutes layover at each end. But as both stations are single platform with a 15-minute headway there isn't really the scope to increase the layover time by more than a couple of minutes at most. It's a similar issue at Chester where they only really have platform 7 to play with.

Note that LU run a metro service and don’t skip stops (except occasionally on the Met Line).

When there are delays, LU pull trains out of service then re-insert them back into the diagram 'on time'. That doesn't matter much on a service which, on some lines, can be up to 30tph. Unless you hear the 'the destination of this train has changed' announcement, you won't even notice if a train gets turned short at somewhere like Seven Sisters or Willesden Green.

Merseyrail isn't that frequent, so I think the running fast/semi-fast in service is the least worst option for them. The other options, really, are either pull the delayed train out of service at somewhere like Sandhills or Kirkdale, or just have the delays continue throughout the day. At least with a fast/semi-fast service some people on the train will get to where they're going on time, and the next train will be on time, rather than everyone suffering.

And Merseyrail are, IME, sensible at advertising these things. Last time it happened to me the platform staff at Central told people for South Parkway to board the fast train to Hunts Cross and then come back a stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

The point here is that people don't feel that Merseyrail is a fair comparison to other TOCs with different operating models - and I think that's reasonable as they're not a 'typical' TOC.

Are they really very much different to the 'metro' services provided by, say, SouthEastern or Southern? The latter have a few more interfaces with the wider network, yes, but the core service- a 4tph suburban train- is the same across many TOCs.