South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Smwrff]

Good job your opinion doesn’t dictate policy then. If you down grade the “Barry lines” via Grangetown to Cogan and Penarth to light rail status you remove the ability to run heavy rail trains via Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan, which is very frequently both planned and unplanned - also like I say you need Cardiff Central to Ninian Park heavy rail to allow diversions via Ninian Park to regain access to the South Wales mainline.

There is, and always will be a heavy rail standards requirement from Cardiff Central via Ninian Park, Grangetown to Barry.
Common sense thinking is needed I think, not light rail is the answer now what’s the question.

The Core Valley Lines have been “upgraded” to heavy rail standards and will remain so, why create an isolated island of light rail at a key junction in south wales ?

I didnt say downgrade the Barry line - I said why cant a light rail underpass/overpass be used to cross the heavy rail lines...

And I said downgrade Penarth line south of Cogan junction.

 

[Bob Price]

Notice the wiring north of Caerphilly is progressing. You can see masts north of Llanbradach and they seem to be wiring as they go. With the next few weekends closures they could be as far as Ystrad Mynach fairly soon.

 

[The exile]

3 more years? Jeez...

3 years effectively to introduce what is effectively a brand new S-Bahn type service on dedicated tracks alongside a busy main line - including building the stations etc - sounds quite optimistic to be honest.

 

[Smwrff]

3 years sounds realistic to me - the engineering work is mostly off-line or prinarily affecting relief lines only. We just need to pry away the dead hand of Network Rail and let TfW manage the work.

 

[CapitalStar378]

3 years effectively to introduce what is effectively a brand new S-Bahn type service on dedicated tracks alongside a busy main line - including building the stations etc - sounds quite optimistic to be honest.

I was referring to Crwys Road in that post.

 

[Smwrff]

I have re-read the NW Corridor report and it seems to me that one option that has not been fully explored is to alternatively connect the Crossrail route to Penarth, while sending the NW Corridor trains to Coryton. This would simplify Cardiff West modifications and Central Sation movements.

But this would require NR to allow Tram-trains to use heavy rail lines between CC and Cogan. What would be required to enable this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2025 ==

I was referring to Crwys Road in that post.

In which case there is no reason why this can not be delivered in less than two years

 

[Ib5]

I didnt say downgrade the Barry line - I said why cant a light rail underpass/overpass be used to cross the heavy rail lines...

And I said downgrade Penarth line south of Cogan junction.

Fair enough, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

However, you can’t really grasp the benefits of true light rail (CVL TramTrain isn’t) when you have to run over heavy rail. That kind of mix and match has implications on both modes, particularly the heavy rail.

Regards the City line and Ninian Park Heavy / light rail over/under pass - you have to maintain heavy rail access to Ninian Park with or without an over/underpass. There isn’t the land available to allow this.

Hence why the whole intergrated (I’d say bodged) tram train concept is and will be a failure. Forcing a change at Queen Street to allow access to Barry island is going to be a huge nightmare to name but one example.

Your a parent with a few kids in tow, it’s mid 20s outside the kids want to go to Barry Islam for the day (along with the rest of the Rhonnda valley) you think ah yes the new train network !

You board the shiny new tram at Merthyr, you even get a seat ! Fantastic!

You get down to Pontypridd it’s getting busy now but fear not you’ve a seat.

Little one needs a wee now!

Off we pop at Pontypridd to use the WC as there isn’t one on the train. No bother you’ll just get the next one.

Wee missing complete you wait for the next train….cancelled dam.

Not to worry the next one is in 15 minutes.

The shiny new tram arrives…it’s packed with the rest of the Rhonnda valley.

You spend the next half hour jammed with your kids standing in the door way until you get to queen street.

“This train is for Cardiff bay only, change here for Barry Island”

Eh !? Change didn’t they used fo go direct ?

Oh well it is what it is….

Next train 10 minutes…direct to Barry island…that’s not to bad.

Next train arrives it’s packed with the communities of the Rhymney valley.

3 cars or if your lucky 4 to Barry island with all the stops beyond to go !

At this point you think sod this and go back home.

Please tell me with straight face this won’t happen, and would you in those circumstances ever bother again ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2025 ==

3 years sounds realistic to me - the engineering work is mostly off-line or prinarily affecting relief lines only. We just need to pry away the dead hand of Network Rail and let TfW manage the work.

Yes TfW are the magic chocolate factory of train and infrastructure operation….

 

[WelshBluebird]

Forcing a change at Queen Street to allow access to Barry island is going to be a huge nightmare to name but one example.

Penty of the valley lines passengers have had to change at Cardiff for Barry for years anyway and its been fine.

 

[chargesmith]

I was referring to Crwys Road in that post.

Crwys Road was part of the current phase of metro works so I think that'll be delivered well within the 3 years.

As far as I know the works left as part of that are:

1) Electrification of the Rhymney Line (ongoing)
2) Electrification and capacity improvements on the Cardiff Bay line (ongoing)
3) Opening Butetown station (work started)
4) Opening Crwys Road station (not started)
5) Provision of station toilet facilities at stations on the CVL (status uncertain)

Is there anything else I've missed? As far as I remember Gabalfa and Trefforest Estate were later phases.

 

[Ib5]

Penty of the valley lines passengers have had to change at Cardiff for Barry for years anyway and its been fine.

Rhymney valley yes, TAM valley no. So now going forward as it’s been swapped over more pasenrhs will have to change trains at QS, so the majority will now suffer undue consequences of the upgrade or “transformation” as they term it.

The bottom line is for the sake of a mile (at the moment) of on street running of tram track a huge number of people from rhe most deprived area or south wales have to suffer a poorer service.

 

[AdamWW]

Rhymney valley yes, TAM valley no. So now going forward as it’s been swapped over more pasenrhs will have to change trains at QS, so the majority will now suffer undue consequences of the upgrade or “transformation” as they term it.

The bottom line is for the sake of a mile (at the moment) of on street running of tram track a huge number of people from rhe most deprived area or south wales have to suffer a poorer service.

I think the current service patterns are overall worse than previously, though of course there are winners and losers.

When/if service frequencies increase it will I hope make more sense.

It's particularly poor whenever the Bay line is closed (i.e. much of the time) as that means the extra services from Pontypridd that partly make up for the inconvenience of trains being re-routed via the City Line don't run.

 

[positron]

Crwys Road was part of the current phase of metro works so I think that'll be delivered well within the 3 years.

That's exactly what we were referring to though, the new planning document suggests it's not going to be open till 2028. Which is why we were shocked at 3 years.

 

[The exile]

I was referring to Crwys Road in that post.

Apologies - so you were!

 

[Ib5]

I think the current service patterns are overall worse than previously, though of course there are winners and losers.

When/if service frequencies increase it will I hope make more sense.

It's particularly poor whenever the Bay line is closed (i.e. much of the time) as that means the extra services from Pontypridd that partly make up for the inconvenience of trains being re-routed via the City Line don't run.

From a operational point of view when the Bay service isn’t running (to Pontypridd) QS runs much smoother, as you remove the conflict across the junction to the south of the station.

When the remodel is complete the “direction” of travel will focus the primary route toward the bay with the line down to central becoming a “branch” how this will ease the current situation or cope with the increased service only time will tell.

QS (Queens Street) at its current location is and will also be hand strung unfortunately, you really need the Radyr and Rhymney lines separated across Newport Road into QS with the coming together of the four tracks before the grade down into Central. Then having if you really have to the Bay service going to Caerphilly or even Ystrad, removing a on the level crossing at QS.

But, that would require massive engineering and cost of a new four track bridge across Newport Road with its space constraints on llandaff side of the road.

Cardiff Central isn’t and wasn’t designed to accommodate terminating services, so you’re forced to terminate services at places like Cardiff Bay which makes sense why they are pushing the TAM services down there vice through to Central.

To be positive for a moment….the current roundabout service from Merthyr to Aberdare and vice versa is working quite well, the only issue is the infamous essentially single line section into Cardiff central across the west junction. The way the service is planned makes this worse unfortunately, booking the Aberdare via platform 7, whilst the Merthyr (waits usually) at Radyr Branch Junc for the Aberdare to pass, then into platform 6.

You could route the Merthyr via platform 4, this would allow the Aberdare to depart simultaneously as the Merthyr arrives. But….you then remove mainline capacity for terminating trains such as GWR ex West Country, Portsmouth and the Cardiff service from Paddington.

The work this Xmas will allow the Aberdare and Merthyr trains to simultaneously arrive / depart from the west with the addition of two new point ends which will allow a Platform 7 to Down Barry Relief (towards Ninian Park), and Up Barry Relief to platform 6.

It’ll allow allow a Up Barry to platform 7, whilst a Canton or UP/DN Barry Relief move into platform 6.

Unfortunately a closing up signal (like those on the west end of platform 6) isn’t being provided in conjunction with the addtional point ends. This would allow a train to occupy platform 7 loading / unloading whilst the next arrival draws up to the signal ready to move into the platform as soon the previous train has left without delay, the same way platform 6 works now.

We need to move away from treating Cardiff Central as a termination station on both sides (mainline and valleys), trains now move through the station at slow speed approaching platforms on single yellow signals, then station staff having to give the signaller a train ready to start signal before the platform starting signal is cleared.

There are also constrains within the signaling equipment that restrict movements which also need to be rectified, they’ll also open up a few extra minutes of improvements and reduce delays.

There really is no need for massive engineering at Cardiff West, minor interventions make a huge difference.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Rhymney valley yes, TAM valley no

From my memory at least Treherbert trains have regularly terminated at Central for ages.
Back when I was younger they used to run through to Barry yes, but that was a while ago!

 

[AdamWW]

From a operational point of view when the Bay service isn’t running (to Pontypridd) QS runs much smoother, as you remove the conflict across the junction to the south of the station.

Which of course wasn't there at all in the previous service pattern (which also provided a for frequent and far more reliable service to the Bay).

To be positive for a moment….the current roundabout service from Merthyr to Aberdare and vice versa is working quite well, the only issue is the infamous essentially single line section into Cardiff central across the west junction.

That and the fact that it's now very confusing for non regular passengers.

 

[CapitalStar378]

From a operational point of view when the Bay service isn’t running (to Pontypridd) QS runs much smoother, as you remove the conflict across the junction to the south of the station.

When the remodel is complete the “direction” of travel will focus the primary route toward the bay with the line down to central becoming a “branch” how this will ease the current situation or cope with the increased service only time will tell.

QS (Queens Street) at its current location is and will also be hand strung unfortunately, you really need the Radyr and Rhymney lines separated across Newport Road into QS with the coming together of the four tracks before the grade down into Central. Then having if you really have to the Bay service going to Caerphilly or even Ystrad, removing a on the level crossing at QS.

But, that would require massive engineering and cost of a new four track bridge across Newport Road with its space constraints on llandaff side of the road.

Cardiff Central isn’t and wasn’t designed to accommodate terminating services, so you’re forced to terminate services at places like Cardiff Bay which makes sense why they are pushing the TAM services down there vice through to Central.

To be positive for a moment….the current roundabout service from Merthyr to Aberdare and vice versa is working quite well, the only issue is the infamous essentially single line section into Cardiff central across the west junction. The way the service is planned makes this worse unfortunately, booking the Aberdare via platform 7, whilst the Merthyr (waits usually) at Radyr Branch Junc for the Aberdare to pass, then into platform 6.

You could route the Merthyr via platform 4, this would allow the Aberdare to depart simultaneously as the Merthyr arrives. But….you then remove mainline capacity for terminating trains such as GWR ex West Country, Portsmouth and the Cardiff service from Paddington.

The work this Xmas will allow the Aberdare and Merthyr trains to simultaneously arrive / depart from the west with the addition of two new point ends which will allow a Platform 7 to Down Barry Relief (towards Ninian Park), and Up Barry Relief to platform 6.

It’ll allow allow a Up Barry to platform 7, whilst a Canton or UP/DN Barry Relief move into platform 6.

Unfortunately a closing up signal (like those on the west end of platform 6) isn’t being provided in conjunction with the addtional point ends. This would allow a train to occupy platform 7 loading / unloading whilst the next arrival draws up to the signal ready to move into the platform as soon the previous train has left without delay, the same way platform 6 works now.

We need to move away from treating Cardiff Central as a termination station on both sides (mainline and valleys), trains now move through the station at slow speed approaching platforms on single yellow signals, then station staff having to give the signaller a train ready to start signal before the platform starting signal is cleared.

There are also constrains within the signaling equipment that restrict movements which also need to be rectified, they’ll also open up a few extra minutes of improvements and reduce delays.

There really is no need for massive engineering at Cardiff West, minor interventions make a huge difference.

I imagine if the old Riverside platforms hadn't been demolished, there would have been loads more terminating options from the west.

 

[positron]

Is there anywhere people can point to about "the works this XMAS" I've seen a few references but I'm not sure what this actually is? Is this Cardiff west from spending review or is this something smaller they planned to do anyway?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2025 ==

Notice the wiring north of Caerphilly is progressing. You can see masts north of Llanbradach and they seem to be wiring as they go. With the next few weekends closures they could be as far as Ystrad Mynach fairly soon.

That's great to hear. They do need to move at some pace to get it finished asap. Even if they don't end up with the full 4tph (because Tir Phil passing loop will take a bit longer for some reason) getting the electric trains running on that line has got to be priority (behind getting the 398s running full stop).

 

[Smwrff]

From a operational point of view when the Bay service isn’t running (to Pontypridd) QS runs much smoother, as you remove the conflict across the junction to the south of the station.

When the remodel is complete the “direction” of travel will focus the primary route toward the bay with the line down to central becoming a “branch” how this will ease the current situation or cope with the increased service only time will tell.

QS (Queens Street) at its current location is and will also be hand strung unfortunately, you really need the Radyr and Rhymney lines separated across Newport Road into QS with the coming together of the four tracks before the grade down into Central. Then having if you really have to the Bay service going to Caerphilly or even Ystrad, removing a on the level crossing at QS.

But, that would require massive engineering and cost of a new four track bridge across Newport Road with its space constraints on llandaff side of the road.

Cardiff Central isn’t and wasn’t designed to accommodate terminating services, so you’re forced to terminate services at places like Cardiff Bay which makes sense why they are pushing the TAM services down there vice through to Central.

To be positive for a moment….the current roundabout service from Merthyr to Aberdare and vice versa is working quite well, the only issue is the infamous essentially single line section into Cardiff central across the west junction. The way the service is planned makes this worse unfortunately, booking the Aberdare via platform 7, whilst the Merthyr (waits usually) at Radyr Branch Junc for the Aberdare to pass, then into platform 6.

You could route the Merthyr via platform 4, this would allow the Aberdare to depart simultaneously as the Merthyr arrives. But….you then remove mainline capacity for terminating trains such as GWR ex West Country, Portsmouth and the Cardiff service from Paddington.

The work this Xmas will allow the Aberdare and Merthyr trains to simultaneously arrive / depart from the west with the addition of two new point ends which will allow a Platform 7 to Down Barry Relief (towards Ninian Park), and Up Barry Relief to platform 6.

It’ll allow allow a Up Barry to platform 7, whilst a Canton or UP/DN Barry Relief move into platform 6.

Unfortunately a closing up signal (like those on the west end of platform 6) isn’t being provided in conjunction with the addtional point ends. This would allow a train to occupy platform 7 loading / unloading whilst the next arrival draws up to the signal ready to move into the platform as soon the previous train has left without delay, the same way platform 6 works now.

We need to move away from treating Cardiff Central as a termination station on both sides (mainline and valleys), trains now move through the station at slow speed approaching platforms on single yellow signals, then station staff having to give the signaller a train ready to start signal before the platform starting signal is cleared.

There are also constrains within the signaling equipment that restrict movements which also need to be rectified, they’ll also open up a few extra minutes of improvements and reduce delays.

There really is no need for massive engineering at Cardiff West, minor interventions make a huge difference.

To be fair - there is no need for 'massive' engineering interventions to improve City Line services for existing service patterns. But at-grade improvements can only go so far and further more extensive modifications will be needed to connect Crossrail (East) with NW corridor proposals.

 

[Caaardiff]

Rhymney valley yes, TAM valley no. So now going forward as it’s been swapped over more pasenrhs will have to change trains at QS, so the majority will now suffer undue consequences of the upgrade or “transformation” as they term it.

The bottom line is for the sake of a mile (at the moment) of on street running of tram track a huge number of people from rhe most deprived area or south wales have to suffer a poorer service.

Poorer service for the 5 days a year it's sunny enough in Wales to go to Barry Island?

 

[AdamWW]

Poorer service for the 5 days a year it's sunny enough in Wales to go to Barry Island?

I was thinking much the same!

 

[Markdvdman]

What you will notice in Wales is when it is lovely weather like today school is on so Barry Island does not get the traffic like in the summer holidays

 

[Ib5]

Poorer service for the 5 days a year it's sunny enough in Wales to go to Barry Island?

Granted on the weather ! lol but the point still stands, or swap Barry Island for Barry, or stations between there and Cardiff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2025 ==

What you will notice in Wales is when it is lovely weather like today school is on so Barry Island does not get the traffic like in the summer holidays

You’d expect that though surely? Kids are in school so not travelling in mass to the Island. Even when there is mass drama. The railway simply can’t cope with it, the opportunities to double up units will be/has been lost with the introduction of the Flirts.

Ironically the double trams sets that are proposed could potentially be of benefit conveying the masses down Queen to cram onto a 3 or 4 car Flirt for Barry!

 

[J663738]

I imagine if the old Riverside platforms hadn't been demolished, there would have been loads more terminating options from the west.

I am a bit confused, in Cardiff Central there is a tiled mosaic saying Platforms 4,5 and 6. I assumed the riverside bay platform was platform 5 which has now gone.
But looking at this old photo (Britain From Above, which can be shared) The Riverside platforms are nearer to the new Platform 8.
Not a metro question, but what where was platform 5 ?

***Edit, I can see where it was now, so could they bring it back as a terminating platform?***

 

[Ib5]

Yes, Cardiff Riverside curved away to the right (looking towards Newport) where Platform 8 is now, the line used to go down to Clarence Road station which was down the Bay so where I don’t recall where now. The platform survived used to store and load parcel trains until the late 80s.

The picture you’ve linked was the GWR rebuilding of the station in the 1930s.

Reference platform 5 that was a west facing bay between platform 3 and 4, if you go to the Canton end of the platform you’ll see a filled in gap in the canopy, the platform paving slabs used to be different where the track bed was filled in but I think it’s been changed now ?

 

[CapitalStar378]

Yes, the Riverside platforms were formerly Cardiff Riverside station and then they were incorporated into the main station as platforms 8 & 9.

 

[MikePJ]

A couple of pictures of Cardiff Bay station (from the Bute St side) showing the work on Platform 1. The old station entrance has been demolished, making way for a large area for passenger circulation. The line is currently closed and reopens on Saturday.

 

[Caaardiff]

You’d expect that though surely? Kids are in school so not travelling in mass to the Island. Even when there is mass drama. The railway simply can’t cope with it, the opportunities to double up units will be/has been lost with the introduction of the Flirts.

But the Flirts are 4 cars, so you wouldnt need to double them up?

 

[AdamWW]

This is interesting.

Trains on the Coryton line are no longer timetabled to call at Ty Glas from 28th June - Realtimetrains showing it as "Service stop unadvertised".



Which is amusing given that at present Ty Glas seems to be sacrosanct - it is very rare for them to turn a late running train round at Heath but very common not to go further than Ty Glas even if there's time to do so, and on the rare occasions they skip stops to recover the timetable Ty Glas is never skipped.

For most people, I expect walking to Birchgrove will be annoying but not a huge imposition. But it does seem a bit of a shame that the platform extension couldn't have been arranged in time. (Or even a temporary one as used at Taffs Well during the works there).

 

[positron]

A couple of pictures of Cardiff Bay station (from the Bute St side) showing the work on Platform 1. The old station entrance has been demolished, making way for a large area for passenger circulation. The line is currently closed and reopens on Saturday.

It amuses me that after originally saying they were going to move the station further into the bay they've actually moved it slightly further north.

Glad to see progress being made though.