Fake (?) Southeastern Penalty Fare Email

[greentrees7]

Hi,
Apologies if tis isnt the right forum to post but it's penalty fare related so I thought here would have the best advice!?

I've just received an email from 'tips@mailer.southeasternrailway.co.uk' with a Penalty Fare notice PDF attached, saying I was caught yesterday without a correct ticket between Wateringbury to West St Leonards. I didn't travel by any trains yesterday and have never taken that route or been to those stations.

The letter has my correct first name, surname and address. Earlier this year I had a completely separate incident with Southeastern which was resolved via out-of-court settlement, so my details would be in their system, therefore I'm wondering whether I've been mixed up with someone else? The email gives no people to contact except for the appeals services - I'm not too sure if this is even a legitimate email so I don't want to click on anymore links and don't want to dispute in case this is a misdirected, legitimate fine for someone else.

Just wondering if this has happened to anyone before, and whether Southeastern even do Penalty Fares via email? On Southeastern website it says I should 'send the letter back' and contact British Transport Police for potential identity theft but this email says that I shouldn't reply and again I'm not sure if this is just a scammy email? I'll email what contact email I can find on Southeastern website but there isn't one dedicated to this issue.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[ainsworth74]

It certainly looks legitimate so if it's a scam it's a very elaborate one! If you're certain that there's no chance you've been caught on a train between those two stations without a ticket (were you on any trains yesterday at all?) then I would suggest you need to contact SouthEastern. This might be on of those times, sadly, that a phone call is the best option I believe you can reach them on 0345 322 7021. Just politely explain the situation ("I've been sent an email from what appears to be SouthEastern informing me I've been issued a Penalty Fare but I didn't travel by train on the date the PF is from. I'm worried it might be a scam or a mistake?" sort of thing) and see what they can suggest. You could also try contacting them via WhatsApp as well (07866 002 690) but I reckon a phone call is the place to start.

It is odd though that they've sent an email at all, assuming it's legitimate, I wasn't aware of any TOCs following up the issuing of a PF by email? Unless this is something they do to people who they already hold details of?

Do you know of anyone who might want to give your name and address if they got caught? Disgruntled friend/acquaintance? More usually that's what we see, someone giving someone else's name and address as revenue staff have very little way of verifying the details given to them match the person in front of them.

 

[robbeech]

I’d say that IF it is a genuine email it’s more likely someone else has used your name, however it’s not impossible for bizarre mix ups to happen if your name is on file somewhere. I received a speeding ticket last year for driving an Enterprise hire van in Cornwall on a day I didn’t have a van and wasn’t in Cornwall. I had however received a parking penalty through driving an Enterprise van (different van from
Different branch hundreds of miles away) a couple of weeks before and somehow my name had been passed on.
So mix ups with data CAN happen but it must be rare.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, as far as I know no TOC issues penalty fares other than face to face at the time.

I’ve also not heard of instant email reminders, but that’s not to say they don’t happen. It’s usually the case that it takes a while for the paperwork to be transferred from the inspector to the office, so this seems unusual on the face of it.

 

[dosxuk]

As above it looks fairly legit - to the point I would be wanting to contact them to find out what's occured. Whatever you do - do not reply to that email directly, or use any of the contact details contained within the email or letter. Use independently looked up contact details to do it - such as the phone number posted by @ainsworth74 above - to ensure you are actually talking to Southeastern.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Doesn't the notice get the value of the PF wrong? Shouldn't it be £123.40 with a £50 reduction for prompt payment?

 

[Pushpit]

It looks to me to be some automated process that is additional to the usual PF paperwork handed out at the time. It's not clear whether it's just triggered for all people for which they hold an email address (which they do have in your case), or for exceptions (people running off, paper jams) or on request.

My speculation is that this is fat finger syndrome somewhere down the line, given your details were already held by the system. Unless a quick phone call can resolve this, you would be best to write to SE Railways - SE Trains the legal entity - and point out the mistake in documented form, to cover yourself. You don't want to appeal a PF - you never properly got a PF to appeal. The first appeal is likely to fail anyway.

 

[WesternLancer]

It certainly looks legitimate so if it's a scam it's a very elaborate one! If you're certain that there's no chance you've been caught on a train between those two stations without a ticket (were you on any trains yesterday at all?) then I would suggest you need to contact SouthEastern. This might be on of those times, sadly, that a phone call is the best option I believe you can reach them on 0345 322 7021. Just politely explain the situation ("I've been sent an email from what appears to be SouthEastern informing me I've been issued a Penalty Fare but I didn't travel by train on the date the PF is from. I'm worried it might be a scam or a mistake?" sort of thing) and see what they can suggest. You could also try contacting them via WhatsApp as well (07866 002 690) but I reckon a phone call is the place to start.

It is odd though that they've sent an email at all, assuming it's legitimate, I wasn't aware of any TOCs following up the issuing of a PF by email? Unless this is something they do to people who they already hold details of?

Do you know of anyone who might want to give your name and address if they got caught? Disgruntled friend/acquaintance? More usually that's what we see, someone giving someone else's name and address as revenue staff have very little way of verifying the details given to them match the person in front of them.

and any phone call should be followed up in writing by e-mail to the SE Trains prosecutions unit (their genuine e-mail can be found on other threads - OP please ask if can't find it) indicating that you were not on these trains / at these locations on the dates concerned and you can only assume someone has used your name and address to evade the railway company.

See post #13 of this thread with an e-mail address on a letter that is their e-mail address

Fare-evasion Q

Hi, I got my details taken last week for the incorrect ticket entering London Bridge - I hold my hands up & admit that exploited it to save money on tickets. I travelled once a week for over a year this way - saving around 50% of the actual ticket price. I’m now anxiously awaiting a letter...

www.railforums.co.uk

or if you are concerned about the e-mail send it hard copy post

They may as you to send a copy of your ID to compare it with the ID that should have been taken by the staff on the train (but if you fear a scam do not send that at this stage)

Keep a copy of what you send them.

If you phone make a note of the name and job title of you you speak to.

We have seen admin cock ups with SE trains in the past though (lost letters) so it's not impossible this is some kind of error their end.

AFAIK we've never seen a request like this and usually people are advised that Penalty Fares must be issued in person at the time to the person stopped and can not be sent out afterwards. So OP may be right to be suspicious.

 

[The_Train]

Does the tips@mailer part of the email address not ring any alarm bells?

I am not technologically minded but it seems like a strange start to an email address to me and a google search of said email address brings up no exact matches

 

[AlterEgo]

This is legit.

Southeastern now have Electronic Penalty Fares (EPFNs). See https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/policies/penalty-fares-policy

Now, this opens a can of worms. @furlong you may be interested in this?

 

[Pushpit]

Does the tips@mailer part of the email address not ring any alarm bells?

I'm not commenting on the "tips" bit but the "@mailer" or "@mail" part would be normal, it's what is known as a Mail Daemon, which is a server background task which sends out automatic emails in particular circumstances, managing this to avoid overloading systems. So it hasn't come from a person or from a department with a group inbox/outbox, the Daemon has processed data and set off an email out to someone as a result of some trigger. The Daemon can't (at this stage) interpret replies, hence it is a one-way system. Used a lot by mass marketing organisations and mass mailing lists.

 

[The_Train]

I'm not commenting on the "tips" bit but the "@mailer" or "@mail" part would be normal, it's what is known as a Mail Daemon, which is a server background task which sends out automatic emails in particular circumstances, managing this to avoid overloading systems. So it hasn't come from a person or from a department with a group inbox/outbox, the Daemon has processed data and set off an email out to someone as a result of some trigger. The Daemon can't (at this stage) interpret replies, hence it is a one-way system. Used a lot by mass marketing organisations and mass mailing lists.

What a world we live in

Right, I will leave you experts to help the person out

 

[pedr]

The letter says that a Penalty Fare Notice "was issued" yesterday. In plain English that would imply something created and delivered at that time. In the railway context I'd assume 'issued' to mean 'printed out/filled in and hand delivered on the spot' and that this is a reminder. If that's not what this train company is doing - if it's taking details on a mobile device which then subsequently generate an email without anything given to the passenger at the time, does that meet the requirements of the Penalty Fare Regulations?

In the abstract it is a system which could work and be efficient, but relying on email seems foolish, in a circumstance where the train company should have to be able to demonstrate that the person liable to pay a Penalty Fare received the notification.

 

[greentrees7]

Thank you all. After chatbot and phone call, I've been asked to email in ID and any anything to prove that I wasn't on that train as Southeastern worker didn't have bodycam footage when issuing it - issue is that I'm a remote worker, so other than statements from people I live with that I was in fact home, or confirmation from my office that I wasn't in yesterday, I don't really have much proof! Maybe a screenshot of my Trainline account to prove I don't ever go there?

When someone is given a penalty fare, what are they asked for by the officer exactly? Is it just a name, or is it an address as well? I'm also guessing they are not asked for ID to confirm this.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm not commenting on the "tips" bit but the "@mailer" or "@mail" part would be normal, it's what is known as a Mail Daemon, which is a server background task which sends out automatic emails in particular circumstances, managing this to avoid overloading systems. So it hasn't come from a person or from a department with a group inbox/outbox, the Daemon has processed data and set off an email out to someone as a result of some trigger. The Daemon can't (at this stage) interpret replies, hence it is a one-way system. Used a lot by mass marketing organisations and mass mailing lists.

TIPS is the name of the software used.

TIPS software provides a readymade “back office” administration solution for managing your rail company’s Penalty Fare Notices (PFN’s) and prosecutions

TIPS | Raspberry Software

www.raspberrysoftware.com

 

[jfollows]

Thank you all. After chatbot and phone call, I've been asked to email in ID and any anything to prove that I wasn't on that train as Southeastern worker didn't have bodycam footage when issuing it - issue is that I'm a remote worker, so other than statements from people I live with that I was in fact home, or confirmation from my office that I wasn't in yesterday, I don't really have much proof! Maybe a screenshot of my Trainline account to prove I don't ever go there?

When someone is given a penalty fare, what are they asked for by the officer exactly? Is it just a name, or is it an address as well? I'm also guessing they are not asked for ID to confirm this.

Don’t stress too much; the burden of proof is on them, not you. In other words, they have to prove that it was you, you don’t have to prove that it wasn’t you. They know this happens all the time, and of course anything you have that can help them is good for both parties.

People are asked for name and address, and the combination can be verified, but nobody needs to prove their ID to anyone if they don’t want to, not even to the police.

 

[WesternLancer]

When someone is given a penalty fare, what are they asked for by the officer exactly? Is it just a name, or is it an address as well? I'm also guessing they are not asked for ID to confirm this.

There are some staff on here who might be able to confirm what they are supposed to do but it may vary from one train operator to another.

But what we see is that they will try to take as much info as possible - eg name, address, date of birth and get it backed up by ID (sometimes quite forcefully even tho there is no requiring to carry ID in the UK)
They will also try to take a description of the person - basic one - or use bodycam - because people giving fake names / name of another existing person seems to be pretty common so they will have a process for dealing with your assertion that this is not you

So SE trains ought to have details of the person / what they looked like - which is why they are asking for a copy of your ID

For digital tickets they can also track the account / e-mail etc used to buy the ticket using any QR code on the ticket along with info like where it was scanned at barriers etc.

Following the phone call I would definitely be following all this up in writing

As this develops people here will give you good advice on what to do stage by stage

If you want to draft the letter you want to send with your ID disputing this was you - then post your draft here to get it checked before you send it (we can check for correct use of 'railway English' for example....)

 

[Doppelganger]

If they have mixed you up with someone else, then this is potentially a GDPR breach and I would be asking exactly how this has happened and might even be tempted to report it to the Information Commissioner's Office.

I would be very wary of sending in any ID, how do you know they will not lose it or mix that up?

If this is genuine, it's up to them to prove it, if they didn't have bodycam footage, that seems like Southeastern's problem.

 

[signed]

Thank you all. After chatbot and phone call, I've been asked to email in ID and any anything to prove that I wasn't on that train as Southeastern worker didn't have bodycam footage when issuing it - issue is that I'm a remote worker, so other than statements from people I live with that I was in fact home, or confirmation from my office that I wasn't in yesterday, I don't really have much proof! Maybe a screenshot of my Trainline account to prove I don't ever go there?

When someone is given a penalty fare, what are they asked for by the officer exactly? Is it just a name, or is it an address as well? I'm also guessing they are not asked for ID to confirm this.

If you didn't modify the default behavior, you have a full location history on your Google account

 

[ainsworth74]

If they have mixed you up with someone else, then this is potentially a GDPR breach and I would be asking exactly how this has happened and might even be tempted to report it to the Information Commissioner's Office.

It doesn't sound like a mix up but that someone has given OPs details so I'm not sure there's any particular reason to make a complaint to SouthEastern's Data Protection Officer. Plus what data has been breached? The OP has been sent their own information, unless there's a suggestion SouthEastern gave the OPs information to someone else I'm not seeing a breach.

But in any case...

I would be very wary of sending in any ID, how do you know they will not lose it or mix that up?

If this is genuine, it's up to them to prove it, if they didn't have bodycam footage, that seems like Southeastern's problem.

...sure if you'd like to make life potentially more difficult. I image the OP wants the issue to go away as quickly as possible rather than have some drawn out fight either appealing the PF or in court if SouthEastern prosecute. The OP doesn't have to prove a negative (I wasn't there on that train) but it will make their life a whole lot simpler if they can provide some bits of proof that they weren't the person on that train.

Best thing the OP can do, assuming they want this to go away, is to provide indications that they were not the person on the train. I would suggest sending a copy of any Google location data, perhaps the employer might be willing to provide a letter confirming the OP was working remotely from home (ideally when they logged on to work based software), and confirmation from housemates that they were in all day would be a good starting point.

 

[robbeech]

If this is genuine, it's up to them to prove it, if they didn't have bodycam footage, that seems like Southeastern's problem.

The railway is actively disinterested in following procedure (and in some cases law) when it comes to prosecution of people for alleged offences. So whilst what you say may well be legally accurate, if the railway makes a decision to ignore this they can and will still go after someone for this.

 

[island]

Regulation 5 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (as amended) requires that an RPI issuing a penalty fare "must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged" (my italics).

Whilst an email can constitute "in writing" nowadays, this email was issued more than a day after the alleged offence, it does not seem to me that the email discharges the requirement I have mentioned above.

The email could be a separate "reminder" about a properly issued Penalty Fare.

As others mention, the OP would be wise to take action to have the matter closed; there is a likelihood that fake details were given or some other form of administrative cock-up has occurred, and whilst this is not the OP's fault, inaction will inevitably lead to more action being taken against them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Regulation 5 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (as amended) requires that an RPI issuing a penalty fare "must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged" (my italics).

Whilst an email can constitute "in writing" nowadays, this email was issued more than a day after the alleged offence, it does not seem to me that the email discharges the requirement I have mentioned above.

The email could be a separate "reminder" about a properly issued Penalty Fare.

This is almost certainly a reminder, as it fouls a number of other parts of Regulation 5, like the collector's badge number

This seems to be a reminder about an Electronic Penalty Fare Notice (EPFN), which the OP does not seem to have received. I expect this would have come separately. The payment details given here are for an EPFN.

 

[saismee]

Does the tips@mailer part of the email address not ring any alarm bells?

I am not technologically minded but it seems like a strange start to an email address to me and a google search of said email address brings up no exact matches

I'd like to quickly clear up that subdomains (subdomain.domain.tld or the "mailer" in mailer.southeastern.co.uk) are irrelevant to determining who actually sent the email. As long as the domain and TLD (top-level domain) match, you can verify the source. Some browsers have even started hiding the subdomain as they can be irrelevant and confusing. It does appear to have come from SE unless some very very serious security mistake has happened - serious enough that I think we'd already know about it. I am a little curious as to why they chose "tips" for the username when they could've gone with "no-reply" or something similar, but skyhigh explained where that comes from.

 

[talldave]

I'd like to quickly clear up that subdomains (subdomain.domain.tld or the "mailer" in mailer.southeastern.co.uk) are irrelevant to determining who actually sent the email. As long as the domain and TLD (top-level domain) match, you can verify the source. Some browsers have even started hiding the subdomain as they can be irrelevant and confusing. It does appear to have come from SE unless some very very serious security mistake has happened - serious enough that I think we'd already know about it. I am a little curious as to why they chose "tips" for the username when they could've gone with "no-reply" or something similar, but skyhigh explained where that comes from.

That smacks of a default installation that hasn't been configured by anyone!

 

[greentrees7]

Yes to verify, the email was legitimate as when I called the prosecutions payment team, they had the notice reference number in their systems and the details (station and time) of the incident.

Update: The penalty fare has been closed, as there *was* body-worn video footage which shows it was not me. I received the following email after sending photos of myself:

'Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I was getting hold of the body-worn video footage. I can see from the footage that it was not you travelling at the time, so I have closed the penalty fare. I have also noted on the system that your details were given fraudulently. If your name is given again, the inspector will see my note and should verify the person’s identity a lot more thoroughly. I apologise for any inconvenience, and this should not happen again.'

I'm planning to email back and request whether they can let me know whether this was an 'admin' error (misdirected to my email that was similar?), or if someone specifically gave my name. I know the email implies the latter, but I genuinely cannot think of a single person who would have done that, or anyone who knows me well who travels in that area.

 

[robbeech]

It brings in to question how the information that there was NOT bodyworn video came about doesn’t it.

Great news that this has been sorted.

It’s a real shame that the railway does take the guilty until proven otherwise approach to this sort of thing but it also shows that cooperating a bit in the initial instance can solve things swiftly, so I think you made the right choice.

 

[AlterEgo]

It also begs the question as to why the OP didn’t get the original EPFN but seemed to get a reminder of it.

 

[Trainbike46]

If you didn't modify the default behavior, you have a full location history on your Google account

Many google accounts automatically removed and switched off location history back in May.

 

[Haywain]

but I genuinely cannot think of a single person who would have done that, or anyone who knows me well who travels in that area.

It could be anyone who has had access to your name and address and the odds are that they are not known to you.