High fares - The issue that won't go away

[redreni]

This may all be well and true, but I don't see how it justifies having extortionate fares on so many routes ?

No, nor do I.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There is never a one size fits all answer as different parts of the network are as different as chalk and cheese

 

[Krokodil]

As you know there is a move to single-leg pricing, which would mean the price of a single journey becomes more competitive.

Or more likely the price of a return journey being made less competitive.

Wasn't it an effective hike of 20% on LNER?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or more likely the price of a return journey being made less competitive.

Wasn't it an effective hike of 20% on LNER?

It was, but equally it's been done without a significant hike* on the south WCML for Oval, and returns were retained for those who prefer those too. But are more single journeys (and back by air/coach) sold on IC services perhaps?

* It's hard to say exactly though because a move back to one level of off peak was done at the same time, but at a fare that was basically the average of the two and is between the two in restrictions too.

 

[AlterEgo]

You make the point that even with heavily discounted rail travel that most of us could only dream of, you still find the car more convenient in most cases.

This is reassuring because it suggests that affordable fares aren't going to cause the sky to fall in in terms of overcrowding.

I thought your position is that lower fares would attract lots of people who are priced off the train and there’s suppressed demand waiting to be unlocked for that reason.

Which is it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

As I've said, around 18-20p per mile feels about right.

Based on what?

Fare caps would be absolutely fatal to the railway and render some routes completely unviable. The railway is already delivering poor value on many rural routes by simply being grossly inefficient.

 

[Horizon22]

You make the point that even with heavily discounted rail travel that most of us could only dream of, you still find the car more convenient in most cases.

This is reassuring because it suggests that affordable fares aren't going to cause the sky to fall in in terms of overcrowding. In fact, they haven't where the climate ticket's been introduced in Austria and Germany for example.

Yes but it also suggests it wouldn’t attract loads of people to the railway with just a modest decrease which would therefore be cost-negative to the railway and would need even more subsidy or more cuts to budgets.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which route was this on, out of interest?

Most recently (as in this month) York - London, and London - Preston. The week before St Albans to London off peak (OP return is around 40p/mile).

You make the point that even with heavily discounted rail travel that most of us could only dream of, you still find the car more convenient in most cases.

Yes.

This is reassuring because it suggests that affordable fares aren't going to cause the sky to fall in in terms of overcrowding.

They would sure make the sky fall in for industry funding.

 

[Hadders]

Or more likely the price of a return journey being made less competitive.

Wasn't it an effective hike of 20% on LNER?

True. There was an increase, I don't think it was as high as a blanket 20% but Off Peak tickets were removed (leaving the more restrictive super off peak and Anytime) meaning these passengers faced paying more than double if they travelled using Off Peak tickets.

It was, but equally it's been done without a significant hike*

But at the cost of evening peak restrictions out of London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But at the cost of evening peak restrictions out of London.

Indeed, but reduced morning restrictions compared to the former Super Off Peak which aside from evenings and Sundays was basically entirely useless, though not as bad as cross London Super Off Peaks that go onto SWR from the WCML which are so heavily restricted that there is only about an hour or two of validity last time I checked!

I think practically single fare pricing = evening restrictions. If you don't, you would have to massively price up Anytime fares because almost nobody would need one both ways. Mind you even before WCML single fare pricing it was cheaper to get an Anytime Day Single in and an Off Peak Day Single back from a number of stations, though I bet a lot of people didn't notice and were overpaying.

 

[yorksrob]

Single fares on the train have hostorically been poor value which was a British Rail policy (for revenue protection reasons!)

As you know there is a move to single-leg pricing, which would mean the price of a single journey becomes more competitive.

Unless they do what LNER wants to do and abolish off peak !

Unfortunately my family already think rail is poor value in comparison to the bus, so this was a natural reaction.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Ember is really exposing the poor value (and timing) of ScotRail (and sleeper) fare, and timings.

Ember have recently started a coach between Edinburgh and Fort William. The connection isn't quite there to hoof it from the Deer Stalker to the coach at Edinburgh.

But, if you stay on the sleeper to Stirling or Dunblane, you can pick up the Ember and be in Fort Bill two hours ahead of the sleeper.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought your position is that lower fares would attract lots of people who are priced off the train and there’s suppressed demand waiting to be unlocked for that reason.

Which is it?

The convention amongst most on this forum seems to be that the railway is useless for most peoples journeys so everyone will still use the car, whilst at the same time having lower fares will crowd out the trains.

The lower fares will attract people and there may be some crowding as a result but nothing apocalyptic.

This has been the reported case in Austria and Germany for example - you're the international traveller, I'd have thought you'd have more knowledge of this.

Based on what?

Fare caps would be absolutely fatal to the railway and render some routes completely unviable. The railway is already delivering poor value on many rural routes by simply being grossly inefficient.

Funny that you're fixating on rural routes.

There's often a political imperative to keep them open and the fares are often quite reasonable.

Trying to go a couple of stops up a main line, by contrast is often damaging to your wealth. It's these gouges that would be most affected by an off peak cap per mile.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Yes but it also suggests it wouldn’t attract loads of people to the railway with just a modest decrease which would therefore be cost-negative to the railway and would need even more subsidy or more cuts to budgets.

Well, it would have to involve some commitment to funding transport as a public service. In terms of subsidy, I'd be interested to see some comparisons with similar countries in Europe. There's often a lot of bleating about the level of subsidy, however its impossible to take it seriously without a sensible comparison.

 

[JonathanH]

But, if you stay on the sleeper to Stirling or Dunblane, you can pick up the Ember and be in Fort Bill two hours ahead of the sleeper.

If you are on a sleeper, do you really want to wake up at Stirling at 5am, wait an hour for a coach, and then take a two hour coach journey, or are you content to have a lie in and arrive at 9.50am?

 

[NCT]

Do a comparison of aggregate tax levels and there's your answer.

 

[yorksrob]

Most recently (as in this month) York - London, and London - Preston. The week before St Albans to London off peak (OP return is around 40p/mile).



Yes.



They would sure make the sky fall in for industry funding.

Off peak Fare's from Leeds to London are just about do-able in my experience, so I'd say middling value.

Not sure about that bit of the WCML as I don't use it that often anymore.

 

[Hadders]

Off peak Fare's from Leeds to London are just about do-able in my experience, so I'd say middling value.

Off Peak fares got abolished! It's Super Off Peak, Anytime or Advance these days following LNER's 'simplification'.

This will no doubt become Advance, 70-minute Flex and Anytime in due course due to the 'success' of LNER's simpler fares....

 

[Starmill]

As you know there is a move to single-leg pricing, which would mean the price of a single journey becomes more competitive.

Not necessarily in this area or all areas though. And certainly not a widely successful idea, hence Avanti, GWR and so on not going for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily in this area or all areas though. And certainly not a widely successful idea, hence Avanti, GWR and so on not going for it.

Avanti nearly has. At the start of their franchise they reduced Off Peak Singles to roughly 70% of the Return from a typical 10p-£1 less as it was before.

That 70% compared to the LNER 20% price hike probably gives you an idea of the revenue neutral point (the main loss probably being from people switching from an Anytime Return to an Off Peak one way and Anytime the other rather than because many people make genuinely one way journeys).

GWR isn't that far off either. It's about 60% on Paddington to Penzance, though some off their network (such as to/from Milton Keynes Central/Bletchley or Aylesbury Vale Parkway) are still priced by them but in the old way of a single being only pennies cheaper than a return.

 

[Starmill]

And yet they do. I sat opposite a couple travelling London - Manchester last week, first class open tickets, en route back from Heathrow returning from holiday. (Anecdote rules apply). With their two together rail card it was £370 odd quid for the pair of them. A lot of money, yes, but in the context of a fortnight’s long haul holiday that almost certainly cost 20 times that, it’s noise.

You've misrepresented this a tad I think. £92.50 single in First between Heathrow Airport and Manchester via London is one of the cheapest fares going for that...

Even if they only bought First for London to Manchester and used standard class contactless to and from Heathrow Airport, £92.50 single in First is still a competitive price.

 

[NCT]

Pretty sure Avanti (and was it even Virgin West Coast?) already did that thing where it you booked outward and return in one transaction you could mix an Office Peak Single and an Anytime Single both charged at 50% of the respective Return fares, and you couldn't get those prices with each ticket bought in isolation.

 

[Starmill]

Avanti nearly has. At the start of their franchise they reduced Off Peak Singles to roughly 70% of the Return from a typical 10p-£1 less as it was before.

That 70% compared to the LNER 20% price hike probably gives you an idea of the revenue neutral point (the main loss probably being from people switching from an Anytime Return to an Off Peak one way and Anytime the other rather than because many people make genuinely one way journeys).

GWR isn't that far off either. It's about 60% on Paddington to Penzance, though some off their network (such as to/from Milton Keynes Central/Bletchley or Aylesbury Vale Parkway) are still priced by them but in the old way of a single being only pennies cheaper than a return.

Indeed. Those are far better approaches than Oval or LNER, which is why I was pointing them out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Pretty sure Avanti (and was it even Virgin West Coast?) already did that thing where it you booked outward and return in one transaction you could mix an Office Peak Single and an Anytime Single both charged at 50% of the respective Return fares, and you couldn't get those prices with each ticket bought in isolation.

This was abolished and replaced with cheaper singles that you can buy without one in the other direction. But there's still a discount for buying a return (as is sensible).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those are London to Manchester fares. For two that's £186.45 single times two giving £372.90 with a Railcard discount.

Railcards really do change things. A third off makes some outrageous fares borderline worth paying.

 

[Starmill]

Those are London to Manchester fares. For two that's £186.45 single times two giving £372.90 with a Railcard discount.

Railcards really do change things. A third off makes some outrageous fares borderline worth paying.

Or flip it on its head, the difference between the Standard Anytime and the First Anytime is quite competitive. Either way it's not a surprise people would spend that, especially not if they earnt avios on the purchase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or flip it on its head, the difference between the Standard Anytime and the First Anytime is quite competitive.

The ratio is roughly 150% on most long distance Anytimes across the network which is certainly where it should be and is pretty much standard across Europe based on the floorspace taken up per seat in each class.

That doesn't make the Standard Anytime on that route reasonable at just short of £200 undiscounted. It's about the same as that to Edinburgh from Kings Cross, which is twice the distance. I'd call that expensive, let alone the Avanti one.

Are you thinking he's talking about two returns? These are singles. It's a hundred and eighty pounds each *with Railcard*!

Either way it's not a surprise people would spend that, especially not if they earnt avios on the purchase.

It's not a surprise that rich people who are on the way back from an expensive holiday spend that. But that isn't most people.

 

[Starmill]

It's not a surprise that rich people who are on the way back from an expensive holiday spend that. But that isn't most people.

Yes of course. The post made it sound as though it was better value than it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

The ratio is roughly 150% on most long distance Anytimes across the network which is certainly where it should be and is pretty much standard across Europe based on the floorspace taken up per seat in each class.

Given it comes with an inclusive small meal and drinks, plus lounge access, on Avanti, it's actually a surprisingly good deal.

 

[miami]

Who knows, but the £3 bus fare was a policy choice. Affordable rail fares should be a policy choice as well.

Buses have tons of capacity. The £3 fare especially annoyed a lot of regular bus travellers as it actually increased their price.

Back in the days when you had to pay cash (or worse "exact fare only"), with buses hiding their fares as state secrets, buses were just not usable. A flat fare at least solves that hurdle. Now its just the lack of comfort and service.

Outside of the railway bubble, people see fares as ridiculous -

But trains are still rammed, at least in my experience. People are using the train for long distance 70% more than they were 20 years ago, and capacity hasn't increased that much. Local journeys outside London are up nearly 70%.

This is despite fare increases above inflation.

Lowering prices will struggle to get more people on the trains, people will simply be rationed in another way - by not travelling because the train is too crowded - and total revenue will go down (thus subsidies will have increase or spending cuts will have to be made)

I'm all for reducing fares, but that has to be accomplished by increasing capacity.

 

[Haywain]

The £3 fare especially annoyed a lot of regular bus travellers as it actually increased their price.

Obviously it was an increase from the previous £2.00 but it didn't havevto mean an increase. It's a fare cap, not a flat fare, so fares lower than £3.00 are still available for shorter journeys in some places. And, on the whole, the capped fares represent better value for many journeys than the previously uncapped fares.

 

[Starmill]

It's a fare cap, not a flat fare, so fares lower than £3.00 are still available for shorter journeys in some places.

Technically, yes. But practically, it's incredibly rare except where a lower price cap applies (for example on London buses, in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, or the Lancashire County Council £1 Sunday promotion).

See also National Express West Midlands making a massive fuss in January about charging a single fare below the cap, but a) only setting it to a 10p discount and b) six months later has been increased again anyway. With cynicism like that on display is it really any wonder that some bus passengers are also highly cynical?

 

[Haywain]

Technically, yes. But practically, it's incredibly rare except where a lower price cap applies

I don't think it is that rare. I see lower fares charged regularly for shorter journeys but the cap is £3. However, any price comparisons should be with previouly uncapped fares, not the £2.00 cap.

 

[Starmill]

I see lower fares charged regularly for shorter journeys but the cap is £3.

We had a thread with some examples, and the ones given were for some extremely short journeys of under 2km. It was only in a few areas too, such as Arriva North East. I'd be interested to hear of an updated list if you've one available.