Alexander Dennis proposes plant shutdowns

[Man of Kent]

Wrightbus, who have been through this situation, have learnt from their demise and are a different business - focussed on build quality etc. with an order book that reflects the difference.

However, Wrightbus has a single shareholder, and glancing at their accounts, made a statutory loss for the year ending 31/12/23. Having heard some prices quoted for a Wright diesel DD, I think it may be a case of building market share at the expense of making a profit. There is also the separate Parts & Aftercare company, though the accounts do not reveal whether it is profitable.
Additionally, Bamford had the advantage of buying the assets from the receiver, some at least of which were below market value (excluding property, bought for somewhere between £3m-£7m if I have interpreted the administrator's report correctly), whereas NFI paid top dollar for ADL (£320m).

 

[PG]

it makes no sense to have a factory in Scotland, and to have it closer to the markets in Scarborough, as presumably other of the new PTE's will order their buses from ADL, the majority of which are in Northern England.

That seems like quite the presumption, unless you have further knowledge which you are able to share?

 

[Numpt33]

I was always surprised that once so many operators started placing large orders with Chinese manufacturers(and Egyptian body plants), that the UK Government didnt then start to stipulate that a plant should open in the UK for those vehicles built with funding from government/taxpayer subsidies.
Maybe this announcement will see that reviewed?

One hopes some kind of resolution can be found for AD at Falkirk, it would be a scandal if we lost a UK plant, especially with bus and coach orders in the UK at such a big high.

The USA has had "Buy America" and their buses are stuck in the 1990s. Forcing operators to buy crap buses just spreads the job losses across operators who lose passengers to poor reliability, or higher costs.

 

[Stan Drews]

…ADL have dug a hole for themselves with their current offering.

Any truth to the rumour that this hole leaks and rattles?

 

[JD2168]

Some of ADL’s problems are the poor build quality & legroom in their vehicles not being popular with passengers & operators. I can get on a E200 or E400 MMC in South Yorkshire with Stagecoach & a much older B7RLE or B9TL with First & the Enviro product will rattle, bang & be very noisy with the engine. The Volvo’s on the other hand are more quiet & less noisy despite being older.

The Yutong’s Stagecoach have seem very well built with no rattling but look at the E400 EV’s that Stagecoach Yorkshire have that can’t go on the X17 to Barnsley due to issues but the Yutong’s of a similar age can.

 

[nick291]

Some of ADL’s problems are the poor build quality & legroom in their vehicles not being popular with passengers & operators. I can get on a E200 or E400 MMC in South Yorkshire with Stagecoach & a much older B7RLE or B9TL with First & the Enviro product will rattle, bang & be very noisy with the engine. The Volvo’s on the other hand are more quiet & less noisy despite being older.

The Yutong’s Stagecoach have seem very well built with no rattling but look at the E400 EV’s that Stagecoach Yorkshire have that can’t go on the X17 to Barnsley due to issues but the Yutong’s of a similar age can.

Similar story in Bristol, the 15/65 plate Wright streetdecks were awful when they were new, but have aged gracefully and the Leeds cascades/22 plate ones at Weston are a clear improvement over the original product. Whereas the ADL offerings, both Scania chassis and integral sound like they are falling apart at every turn.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Any truth to the rumour that this hole leaks and rattles?

I’ve experienced Wrightbus products leaking like sieves more than any other manufacturer.

 

[Energy]

There also seems very few ADL E200's entering service at the moment and this has been another issue, with larger operators turning to Yutong for saloon's and smaller operators turning to Volvo Bus/MCV, that surely indicates issues with that model, and maybe its time its sucessor was brought in sooner rather than later.

Not sure on the diesel mmc but the E200EV is struggling with delivery times. Operators need their vehicles sooner rather than later, but they have ZEBRA funding deadlines to meet.

Stagecoach has already switched all their E200EV batches to Yutong, due to ADL not being able to meet the originally agreed deadlines. [source]

It hasn't helped that ADL has had the electric single-decker hole in their product range since the BYD divorce. Loyal ADL operators have been forced to go elsewhere and have seemingly discovered that the grass may be greener, as seen in Stagecoach's orders.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Surely the question that should be asked is that why 13 year old Solos were retained in the fleet and the considerably newer ADLs were sold, rather than being cascaded as an operator would normally do? That suggests some dissatisfaction with the product.

As joieman said they are replacing all their single-deckers so there is nowhere to cascade them to (also their E200MMCs are smaller than their Solos so may not have been suitable for such a cascade even temporarilly) plus as 13-year old vehicles the Solos will hold less value and be harder to sell whilst they had a ready buyer for the E200MMCs, they didn't even need to advertise them before they shifted them and given what the new buyer has deployed them on they may well have had a required delivery date that saw them moved out earlier than intended

Also superior is the new Volvo BZL buses that are very comfortable and don't rattle at all. Although somewhere ADL lost the plot was there Coach range being discontinued, instead of modernised and developed. Also the decision to build the ADL E100EV in China can't have helped but presumably it was a competive decision in order to benefit from lower labour costs, and therefore offer either a cheaper product or offer a greater profit margin, or both.

There also seems very few ADL E200's entering service at the moment and this has been another issue, with larger operators turning to Yutong for saloon's and smaller operators turning to Volvo Bus/MCV, that surely indicates issues with that model, and maybe its time its sucessor was brought in sooner rather than later.

Not sure I would describe the BZL, at least in double-deck form, as superior. The lower deck layout is poor due to battery placement so they have a much lower seating capacity than ADL can offer. ADL had said they were considering moving the E100EV & E200EV overseas production back to the UK if demand were high enough but clearly if this closure goes through they won't be able to as they won't have the space.

Diesel sales are a little spotty due to market factors so it is difficult to judge past performance or future potential. Uncertainty due to franchising & funding, big groups sales & a couple of big groups declaring they would only buy zero-emission mean that it is in flux somewhat. E200MMC sales are picking up again and delivery timescales & prices are competitive with Volvo and in the smaller sector where the E200 is strongest it is the best model (at the bigger end the heavyweight Volvo is better for many aspects but it is not as clear to operators as many are making out on here - my employers are very happy with their new E200MMCs and dual-source, they are also very impressed with the Volvos where they are deployed on suitable work).

There is a lot of anti-ADL comments on here, Wrightbus have had many of the same problems or worse and are allowed to have turned themselves around but ADL remain tarred. The classic E200 rattled badly and whilst ADL have never quite got it perfect they have improved with every generation and it needs to be remembered that they have developed what operators ask for in lighter weight & cheap to run models so comparing them to less popular (in terms of sales in the UK) heavyweight models in terms of rattles after years in service is slightly unfair.

ADLs real issues seem to stem from the BYD deal, it was advantageous at the start when they had a fully developed ready to go electric bus into the market early but it tied them to an older design for too long leaving them less competitive and now without a fully developed product ready to deliver when buyers needed them. From how quickly BYD got their range launched vs where ADL were I suspect that it wasn't ADLs choice to end the relationship when they did though you could probably argue they caused it by developing their own range of integral electrics meaning BYD probably felt they were no longer important to them and as they had a developed range that could easily be adapted for the UK that they sold in the rest of the world they could get out with less pain than ADL would feel.

 

[Teapot42]

Restricting operators to purchasing what are quite frankly inferior vehicles plagued with issues from new is not a great idea in my opinion. Our Yutongs here in Chesterfield are phenomenal vehicles; they perform much better than our ADL Enviro400EVs in many aspects. ADL and other British manufacturers should be seeing this as a wake-up call to start producing better vehicles.

I think a lot depends how the funding was structured.

If the government gave a British manufacturer a 'grant' to develop an EV on the basis they had to sell to UK bus companies at no more than the equivalent diesel bus the outcome might be different. Having funds up-front to properly develop a vehicle rather than having to try and fund development from existing sales or loans makes a difference. Especially without any guaranteed sales at the end to provide a known revenue stream.

The Enviro400EVs have obviously been pushed in to service before they were ready, and I'd suspect one reason for that is the ADL wanted to try and recoup some of the investment.

Ultimately, the likes of Yutong have benefitted from a combination of state support and lower development costs due to lower wages and better access to the EV ecosystem in China. While this part of the world has worried about state subsidy giving an unfair advantage, the Chinese government has been funding and aiding the development of the automotive sector and most people here have missed the fact that they've jumped years if not decades ahead. If anyone is serious about retaining an automotive manufacturing industry in the UK or the EU it needs significant state investment now to develop that ecosystem, to train and teach engineers of all types, and to cover the fairly significant initial costs this sort of industry faces.

The repayment won't come for a long time, but keeping jobs in this country and thus keeping tax revenue is always a better option that saving a few quid buying cheaper from abroad.

 

[GCH100]

That seems like quite the presumption, unless you have further knowledge which you are able to share?

There is already evidence that its likely the new PTE's operators will buy from ADL, The Bee Network has placed about half its orders with ADL, Merseytravel have placed orders with ADL and West Yorkshire Metro has shown off a new E400EV in its new livery for their new network, these are the first three of the new PTE's so this shows their intention. That though doesn't mean other makes won't appear, such as Wrightbus, Volvo, BYD and Yutong, however Bee Network has specified already that its prefered builders are ADL and Wrightbus as part of a plan to support British bus manufacturing, I still say the real issue for ADL is that fewer and fewer private operators are buying ADL E200MMC's, and thats the big issue, plus large operators are holding off buying for City fleets as they expect them to become part of new PTE's facing franchising, and therefore its an unknown future, would you buy new buses when you might not know if you own that depot in one to five years time?, then of course some operators, notably First and GoAhead have placed large orders with Yutong and Wrightbus respectively for London and more rural fleets.

I suspect ADL are missing a trick, by not offering to upgrade diesel buses to electric as Wrightbus is doing it Bicester, as this is likely to be a growing market for a limited time, which the Larbert plant could be converted to do, as that site is being mothballed rather than disposed of, unlike Falkirk which will close altogether.

 

[mm3309219x]

Not sure I would describe the BZL, at least in double-deck form, as superior. The lower deck layout is poor due to battery placement so they have a much lower seating capacity than ADL can offer.

Same goes for the Yutong U11DD, which has a lower deck layout similar to the BYD E400EV, with the batteries concentrated towards the rear (instead of being integrated in the chassis like the current generation E400EV and the Electroliners) meaning that the seats are quite cramped towards the rear in addition to having less seats and low floor space on the lower deck. This is probably one of the reasons why most operators favour ADL and Wright electric double deckers instead of Yutong.

From my observations, the additional rattles from ADL (apart from the rattles from the seats and panels which can be present on any bus) mostly come from the window frames and the glass which creak on every turn and bump, and that in my opinion has improved in recent years, I have been on multiple 2024 E400MMCs and E400EVs which have minimal rattles and are pleasant vehicles to ride on. It could be the fact that they are still brand new but only time will tell.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

The Enviro400EVs have obviously been pushed in to service before they were ready, and I'd suspect one reason for that is the ADL wanted to try and recoup some of the investment.

A lot of the stuff around issues with the E400EVs seem to just be the Chesterfield examples struggling on the motorway when running at top speed being then emphasised and conflated, which is more a specification issue than particularly a design one so it isn't clear that they have been pushed in early (how the 'limiter' works appears to be the main issue, even with diesel buses you could run into this as DB250s were always a bit choppy when they hit max speed in a way Olympians didn't, though they clearly need to address that the breaks lights activate in this manner when regulating speed). I haven't seen a lot of reports of issues elsewhere indicating anything more than you see with others with a new introduction of early models (we had some minor snagging with our Yutongs, as an early customer, which wasn't major and wasn't widely reported but did require dealer support to rectify) so it is difficult to work out whether there is actually anything in the criticism.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some fair points from @Dwarfer1979

The fact is that ADL has suffered from poor build quality and for a few years. I have posted on here before a photo of a nearly new e400city with gaps in internal panels that simply shouldn't appear in a new vehicle. Then you have the extended delivery times, the BYD deal and separation etc, and the First Glasgow e200EV issue. That's all helped promote both Wrightbus and Yutong.

I've been on a few of the ADL EVs and I think it was noticeable how the build quality not great on BYD ones (in Coventry and Bolton). I also remember travelling on a virtually brand new e200mmc of Go North West and a particular panel rattling on idling was really noticeable. However, the new e400EVs are much better but they have a fight to recover lost ground.

For the record, I did chuckle when First was blamed (naturally) for ADL's woes. First was not a major purchaser of ADL products (other than Darts/e200s) until 2012 and has still continued to source from Wright for Streetdecks and Streetlites but yeah, First's fault.

 

[Teapot42]

A lot of the stuff around issues with the E400EVs seem to just be the Chesterfield examples struggling on the motorway when running at top speed being then emphasised and conflated

As an outsider I can't claim any knowledge, but there have been a few posts by drivers suggesting they also have issues with the brakes. Any attempts to find out more (I'm interested from the engineering perspective as it's my general field) have hit a brick wall. Whether it's being inflated or whether they've been told to keep quiet I don't know.

In the Stagecoach Yorkshire thread, the MD Matt Kitchin said the following in late April:

We're working through some warranty works with Alexander Dennis, as a consequene they're staying on routes closer to the depot and lower daily mileage short term until all 39 are delivered and in service.

 

[Mikey C]

Not sure on the diesel mmc but the E200EV is struggling with delivery times. Operators need their vehicles sooner rather than later, but they have ZEBRA funding deadlines to meet.

Stagecoach has already switched all their E200EV batches to Yutong, due to ADL not being able to meet the originally agreed deadlines. [source]

It hasn't helped that ADL has had the electric single-decker hole in their product range since the BYD divorce. Loyal ADL operators have been forced to go elsewhere and have seemingly discovered that the grass may be greener, as seen in Stagecoach's orders.

The BYD divorce did leave a massive hole in their range. In retrospect, going for the E100EV before a fully ADL E200EV perhaps wasn't a good decision, as it left them without an electric version of their best seller for ages.

It's slightly curious that the market leader, part of a bigger group, has been so outflanked by the smaller Wrightbus, who've managed to develop their own electric integral buses far more quickly.

 

[Energy]

The BYD divorce did leave a massive hole in their range. In retrospect, going for the E100EV before a fully ADL E200EV perhaps wasn't a good decision, as it left them without an electric version of their best seller for ages.

ADL seemed to plan the integral electric launch around the BYD product still being offered. [source]

The E100EV fills the sub-9m electric bus market, which BYD/ADL didn't serve, leaving 8.7m Metrocity EVs as the only option. Launching the E100EV first would fill this hole, but it is a low-volume product. Outside of London, the routes aren't big earners, so owning groups are more likely to cascade diesel buses internally than stump up the cash for new buses, even after ZEBRA funding.

Even the market in London is much smaller, with ~60 Metrocity EVs & ~60 E100EVs compared to ~480 BYD E200s.

However, the ADL seemingly forgot that the BYD E200 is inferior to other products. Operators wouldn't choose the BYD/ADL models when better products exist (Yutong, eCitaro, Wright Electroliner), and they know the E200EV is launching soon.

It's slightly curious that the market leader, part of a bigger group, has been so outflanked by the smaller Wrightbus, who've managed to develop their own electric integral buses far more quickly.

So am I.

 

[stevieinselby]

The E100EV fills the sub-9m electric bus market, which BYD/ADL didn't serve, leaving 8.9m Metrocity EVs as the only option. Launching the E100EV first would fill this hole, but it is a low-volume product.

When was there ever an 8.9m Metrocity? For that size, you would previously have had an Optare Solo, or more recently a Yutong E9 (although the double-door layout of the E9 probably isn't very attractive for anything other than a city centre hopper bus, which would push you to the slightly larger E9L).

 

[Energy]

When was there ever an 8.9m Metrocity? For that size, you would previously have had an Optare Solo, or more recently a Yutong E9 (although the double-door layout of the E9 probably isn't very attractive for anything other than a city centre hopper bus, which would push you to the slightly larger E9L).

(original post fixed)

8.7m is the smallest Metrocity. 8.9m is the smallest diesel Enviro 200, but 9.6m is the smallest electric Enviro 200.