Are some trains too long?

[flyer]

Trains too long, something us ‘oop North’ can’t even fathom.

As a casual interest and purely out of curiosity, why the change to DMU’s & EMU’s vs Loco & coach? Surely Loco & coach gave the flexibility of length of train

 

[saismee]

Trains too long, something us ‘oop North’ can’t even fathom.

As a casual interest and purely out of curiosity, why the change to DMU’s & EMU’s vs Loco & coach? Surely Loco & coach gave the flexibility of length of train

While they're more flexible, they're also much more prone to failure due to all the couplers and connections between each coach. Automatic coupling of multiple units also allows for faster recovery of failed units as it just requires taking a second unit out of service and driving them both away together. Coaches also can't move under their own power (what power?) so it requires a lot more shunting and effort to adjust formations. Maintenance-wise, monitoring the coach mileage takes much more work and so they'd most likely end up staying as complete sets in whatever formation they started running in. It does give a bit more short-term flexibility for events or for adapting to passenger numbers, but a 4-coach MU is usually granular-enough to cope with this.

 

[flyer]

While they're more flexible, they're also much more prone to failure due to all the couplers and connections between each coach. Automatic coupling of multiple units also allows for faster recovery of failed units as it just requires taking a second unit out of service and driving them both away together. Coaches also can't move under their own power (what power?) so it requires a lot more shunting and effort to adjust formations. Maintenance-wise, monitoring the coach mileage takes much more work and so they'd most likely end up staying as complete sets in whatever formation they started running in. It does give a bit more short-term flexibility for events or for adapting to passenger numbers, but a 4-coach MU is usually granular-enough to cope with this.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, makes perfect sense

 

[bahnause]

While they're more flexible, they're also much more prone to failure due to all the couplers and connections between each coach. Automatic coupling of multiple units also allows for faster recovery of failed units as it just requires taking a second unit out of service and driving them both away together. Coaches also can't move under their own power (what power?) so it requires a lot more shunting and effort to adjust formations. Maintenance-wise, monitoring the coach mileage takes much more work and so they'd most likely end up staying as complete sets in whatever formation they started running in. It does give a bit more short-term flexibility for events or for adapting to passenger numbers, but a 4-coach MU is usually granular-enough to cope with this.

I'm not quite of the same opinion. Our locomotive-hauled trains are no less reliable than MU trains of a similar age. Towing MU is more time-consuming.

With a locomotive, only a few actions are necessary, with EMU this is usually somewhat more complex. Apart from the fact that a suitable vehicle with a suitable coupler must also be available. Otherwise, an adapter comes into play, which increases the effort even further.

The mileage is registered in the planning software anyway. And since the vehicles are not separated and reassembled at every possible opportunity, this is also uncritical in normal operation. But it does give you the flexibility, to change a carriage due to a fault without having to take the whole unit out of service. The possibility to add carriages with an additional DVT or loco (easier for shunting) to the train makes strengthening a service very easy.

We use our fleet in different variants with between 7 and 12 carriages, with or without dining car. The "modules" of extra carriages can be used differently, depending on demand (weekday, weekend, bank holiday...).

 

[Zomboid]

On a day to day basis it's unlikely that formations would be changed significantly whether units or LHCS were used. You'd just have a 10 car set that runs around all day or doesn't. In recent times LHCS have just been unpowered multiple units.

One additional benefit of MUs is that you get the same performance from a 12 car as you do from a 4 car.

Both approaches have benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Class 170101]

I have so many questions, starting with, why is there an ECS move from St P to Ashford arriving at 9:26????

Did that train historically run ECS to Temple Mills Depot instead of Ashford to stable between the peaks?

 

[Travelmonkey]

One thing that I have noticed is the LNWR Crewe trent Valley stopper is usually a 8 coach train but on Sundays I've seen it promoted to 12 coaches, I know that Atherstone and Rugeley Trent Valley are tricky stations that you can only have the front 4 open, it means you have in essence a full train dangling off the platform at times. It is a tricky one to match. I am interested to see how the 730s will cope with the short platforms as 10 car trains when doubled.

 

[frodshamfella]

There are some Southeastern services in the middle of the day that are 10-cars which outside the peaks don't need to be, if space utilisation was the only consideration. However, I imagine there comes a point where the cost of chopping and changing formations regularly in the day costs as much as just allowing services to run in an excessively long formation (there's cost to ECS moves and extra drivers performing the extra moves, and station staff shutting down trains).

There is also finite capacity on the network in stations to change service lengths; Charing X platforms are a premium, whereas Cannon St has a glut, so the latter services are easier to short-form during the day. There are also not many stations outside of terminals with enough platform space to change lengths; Dartford is one of the best, but not everything terminates there, and what does may not sit there long enough to enable formation alterations. On the mainline however, changing train lengths are more common at the outer ends of the line, like Ashford and Ramsgate, as turnaround capacity is greater and depots/stabling exists nearby.

I used to live in Bexelyheath many years ago. When I go back Im always surprised how long the trains are in the middle of the day, with few passengers. In my day , out of the peaks trains were always four carriages.

 

[30907]

I used to live in Bexelyheath many years ago. When I go back Im always surprised how long the trains are in the middle of the day, with few passengers. In my day , out of the peaks trains were always four carriages.

Coupling and uncoupling EP stock was easy compared with anything since, and that may have been an additional factor. And staff costs were somewhat lower.

 

[sigwinch28]

My personal favourite is the SouthEastern 395s Canterbury West, which have their rear carriages sit awkwardly on the level crossing while passengers alight from the front 8 coaches on westbound (edit: eastbound) services. People in the carriages sometimes look awkwardly uncomfortable as they sit on the train stopped in the middle of the road.

That said, longer trains please. I won’t be satisfied until London Underground trains are so long that they’re stopped at two stations at the same time.

 

[800301]

One thing that I have noticed is the LNWR Crewe trent Valley stopper is usually a 8 coach train but on Sundays I've seen it promoted to 12 coaches, I know that Atherstone and Rugeley Trent Valley are tricky stations that you can only have the front 4 open, it means you have in essence a full train dangling off the platform at times. It is a tricky one to match. I am interested to see how the 730s will cope with the short platforms as 10 car trains when doubled.

No difference to GWR running 9 or 10 car IET's down west on stopper work, one of the few good things about an 800 is the ability to pretty much stop at any station and have a door release pattern for it without having to think

 

[Travelmonkey]

No difference to GWR running 9 or 10 car IET's down west on stopper work, one of the few good things about an 800 is the ability to pretty much stop at any station and have a door release pattern for it without having to think

Definitely one blessing to modern stock is SDO, although a Pain if your in the wrong part of the train. Worse for trains like the EMR 222s with no vestibule I do wonder how many people have been over carried as they were in the wrong set for Beeston or Long Eaton,

 

[Class 170101]

My personal favourite is the SouthEastern 395s Canterbury West, which have their rear carriages sit awkwardly on the level crossing while passengers alight from the front 8 coaches on westbound services. People in the carriages sometimes look awkwardly uncomfortable as they sit on the train stopped in the middle of the road.

Not allowed for new stock now. Class 720s (and 755s) have doors isolated at either front or back depending on station.

 

[JKF]

The GWR train my other half caught back from Paddington a couple of weeks ago was reported as 18 coaches on RTT, which must have been a squeeze in some of the stations. Apparently one of the units was employing some kind of cloaking device as she said it wasn’t visible and appeared outwardly as a normal nine coaches service.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The GWR train my other half caught back from Paddington a couple of weeks ago was reported as 18 coaches on RTT, which must have been a squeeze in some of the stations. Apparently one of the units was employing some kind of cloaking device as she said it wasn’t visible and appeared outwardly as a normal nine coaches service.

Them invisible trains, XC sent one through Burton the other day 4 coaches but announcements saying it was a 9,

 

[dk1]

The GWR train my other half caught back from Paddington a couple of weeks ago was reported as 18 coaches on RTT, which must have been a squeeze in some of the stations. Apparently one of the units was employing some kind of cloaking device as she said it wasn’t visible and appeared outwardly as a normal nine coaches service.

Haha. Just not updated on internal systems.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I think it’s accepted internally now that enough 745s were not ordered and thus the use of 720s on Stansted diagrams and 755s (triple traction) on the Norwich route will be a permanent thing.

Have they increased it to be booked as two sets of 720s on the Stansted Express? Because today there are two diagrams, one of which says pathed as a 745, but journeycheck doesn't say "formed of 10 coaches instead of 12". If you have another diagram of 720s, it'll say that on journeycheck

 

[dk1]

Have they increased it to be booked as two sets of 720s on the Stansted Express? Because today there are two diagrams, one of which says pathed as a 745, but journeycheck doesn't say "formed of 10 coaches instead of 12". If you have another diagram of 720s, it'll say that on journeycheck

Nothing shown of any alterations to stock diagrams on the West.

 

[Bamford]

Stansted - Liverpool St is the ninth largest station-to-station flow in the country when measured in passenger-km.

Is there a list of these anywhere please?

 

[AF91]

Rather than reducing train lengths off peak, why not just take some trains out of the timetable at quiet times?

Note: I am talking about high frequency commuter routes only here and a sensible service should still remain. Please don’t over-react and think I’m extolling Beeching Mk2…

The DfT place quite restrictive targets regarding service frequency rather than targets on providing a certain capacity per hour. It's always an irritation of mine as a train planner that I end up needing to knock everything down to minimum length to maintain a 4tph timetable without waisting money on redundant capacity rather than keeping trains in their longer formations and just running 2tph. It ends up being less efficient with train crew too.

 

[Benjwri]

The DfT place quite restrictive targets regarding service frequency rather than targets on providing a certain capacity per hour. It's always an irritation of mine as a train planner that I end up needing to knock everything down to minimum length to maintain a 4tph timetable without waisting money on redundant capacity rather than keeping trains in their longer formations and just running 2tph. It ends up being less efficient with train crew too.

It’s annoying maybe, but from a passenger unless they can’t sit down on long train, or they can’t get on on a short train, they don’t care what the capacity per hour is. It’s about making the service as usable as possible, if someone has to sit at a station for potentially half an hour or an hour when they finish what they’re doing at their destination, they will probably just drive.

 

[The exile]

Not allowed for new stock now. Class 720s (and 755s) have doors isolated at either front or back depending on station.

Isn’t that exactly what was being described?

 

[Nottingham59]

Is there a list of these anywhere please?

Here you go:

The biggest rail transport flows, measured in passenger-km

I was looking at @RailAleFan 's extremely useful Flow Statistics website, which lists the top 100 station-to-station passenger flows, as reported by ORR. I see the biggest flow is Liverpool St to Tottenham Court Rd at 8000 Pax/d, but those stations are only a kilometre or so apart. Which got me...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bamford]

Here you go:

The biggest rail transport flows, measured in passenger-km

I was looking at @RailAleFan 's extremely useful Flow Statistics website, which lists the top 100 station-to-station passenger flows, as reported by ORR. I see the biggest flow is Liverpool St to Tottenham Court Rd at 8000 Pax/d, but those stations are only a kilometre or so apart. Which got me...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you so much!

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Nothing shown of any alterations to stock diagrams on the West.

Interesting. It seems to always be 720s on one of the diagrams that is booked for a 745, and always the same one

 

[dk1]

Interesting. It seems to always be 720s on one of the diagrams that is booked for a 745, and always the same one

Probably just the easiest operationally. We don’t get very involved in what happens on the west side.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Probably just the easiest operationally. We don’t get very involved in what happens on the west side.

Yeah probably. If they lose a 745 due to a fault or something, so they have three 720 diagrams, they always bring one empty from Norwich in the next few days

 

[720144]

Isn't that just to cover temporary shortages of 745s?

Not necessarily. As there’s many spare 720’s available now, Normally there is 2 diagrams on stansted express. Currently 3 sets today as 745102 & 105 isn’t allocated.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

On a day to day basis it's unlikely that formations would be changed significantly whether units or LHCS were used. You'd just have a 10 car set that runs around all day or doesn't. In recent times LHCS have just been unpowered multiple units.

One additional benefit of MUs is that you get the same performance from a 12 car as you do from a 4 car.

Both approaches have benefits and drawbacks.

I remember (but may be misremembering) reading years ago about British Rail research which had concluded that for loco haulage was more economical for trains of more than five coaches. I suspect it referred to inter-city rather than suburban operations. Does anyone else recall that, and when it was done? And if my recollection of the research is correct, what are the key things that have changed such that we now have 10-coach inter-city EMUs, and even 12-coach ones for long-distance "suburban" services (e.g. Cambridge-Brighton)?

 

[The exile]

I remember (but may be misremembering) reading years ago about British Rail research which had concluded that for loco haulage was more economical for trains of more than five coaches. I suspect it referred to inter-city rather than suburban operations. Does anyone else recall that, and when it was done? And if my recollection of the research is correct, what are the key things that have changed such that we now have 10-coach inter-city EMUs, and even 12-coach ones for long-distance "suburban" services (e.g. Cambridge-Brighton)?

Chiltern say that it’s 6 cars plus - but that’s for diesels. Electrics are a different matter.