Cancellation due to "staff shortage" mid-way through journey

[CheapAndNerdy]

Today (Sunday 10 July) I was awaiting the 14:46 Norbury to Victoria (Originating Sutton). Before I left I checked its progress and everything seemed OK. It was only when I arrived at Norbury that the indicators showed it as a few minutes late, and then a few more and then "delayed". Finally it was cancelled due to "staff shortage". Some minutes later a train thundered non-stop through the station - presumably the cancelled one trying to catch up with its timetable for the return journey.

OK these things happen, but I'm wondering what the staff shortage could be about given that the service had left its originating station on time. Would a relatively short journey have a crew change mid-way?

And if there is no available driver who would be taking the train fast to (presumably) Victoria?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Today (Sunday 10 July) I was awaiting the 14:46 Norbury to Victoria (Originating Sutton). Before I left I checked its progress and everything seemed OK. It was only when I arrived at Norbury that the indicators showed it as a few minutes late, and then a few more and then "delayed". Finally it was cancelled due to "staff shortage". Some minutes later a train thundered non-stop through the station - presumably the cancelled one trying to catch up with its timetable for the return journey.

OK these things happen, but I'm wondering what the staff shortage could be about given that the service had left its originating station on time. Would a relatively short journey have a crew change mid-way?

And if there is no available driver who would be taking the train fast to (presumably) Victoria?

depending on there t&c's Sunday may be voluntary and not enough drvers/guards tutned up, to put it bluntly unless TOC's offer a cery good reason to make Sundays part of the working week (££££££££) there will always be that problem (now I know that will cause shock horror with some people but thats the way it is)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

depending on there t&c's Sunday may be voluntary and not enough drvers/guards tutned up, to put it bluntly unless TOC's offer a cery good reason to make Sundays part of the working week (££££££££) there will always be that problem

I seem to recall that the last time Sunday working came up on here, discussed as a condition where now it is voluntary, it was a very vigourously debated thread with points made with more passion than seen on most other topics.

I think I'll just leave it there. Today's a Sunday.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I seem to recall that the last time Sunday working came up on here, discussed as a condition where now it is voluntary, it was a very vigourously debated thread with points made with more passion than seen on most other topics.

I think I'll just leave it there

Mu personal view is if they offered a decent deal I would not have a problem woth Sundays, However there is alot of old hands that would wait until hell froze over before they worked a Sunday lol

 

[southerner2174]

Would have been a crew changeover at Selhurst, might have had to use the cover guy once been told by the original driver that his relief hadnt turned up

 

[Bedpan]

Today (Sunday 10 July) I was awaiting the 14:46 Norbury to Victoria (Originating Sutton). Before I left I checked its progress and everything seemed OK. It was only when I arrived at Norbury that the indicators showed it as a few minutes late, and then a few more and then "delayed". Finally it was cancelled due to "staff shortage". Some minutes later a train thundered non-stop through the station - presumably the cancelled one trying to catch up with its timetable for the return journey.

OK these things happen, but I'm wondering what the staff shortage could be about given that the service had left its originating station on time. Would a relatively short journey have a crew change mid-way?

And if there is no available driver who would be taking the train fast to (presumably) Victoria?

I don't know but I would guess that there was a change of a crew member at Selhurst; it is sensible for people to start/finish their shifts at the depot to which they are allocated. Similarly there are crew changes at Wimbledon despite the fact that it is only 7 miles from Waterloo.

So possible scenario is that train arrives at Selhurst, driver or guuard gets off as they have finished their shift, train waits at platform as no replacement turns up and so the indicator at Norbury starts ticking up minutes as it sits there, then, for whatever reason, drivere/guard turns up late and train therefore misses some stops (if indeed it was your train that you saw) on the way to Victoria in order to to make up some time.

 

[Minilad]

(Post deleted)

Something might have happened on the way to work, car breakdown or accident for example

 

[strange6]

Something might have happened on the way to work, car breakdown or accident for example

I agree. Most staff absence is only reported on the day of working.

 

[yorkie]

This train, 1425 Sutton-Victoria left Selhurst 16 minutes late then ran non-stop to Balham, then Clapham & Victoria to make up time. The following 1435 Caterham-Victoria train was shortly after it from Selhurst so any passengers at intermediate stations were catered for by the ex-Caterham train.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

I don't know but I would guess that there was a change of a crew member at Selhurst; it is sensible for people to start/finish their shifts at the depot to which they are allocated. Similarly there are crew changes at Wimbledon despite the fact that it is only 7 miles from Waterloo.

So possible scenario is that train arrives at Selhurst, driver or guuard gets off as they have finished their shift, train waits at platform as no replacement turns up and so the indicator at Norbury starts ticking up minutes as it sits there, then, for whatever reason, drivere/guard turns up late and train therefore misses some stops (if indeed it was your train that you saw) on the way to Victoria in order to to make up some time.

I arrived at Norbury probably about 5 minutes before it was due, so that would put it at Selhurst when the delays started. I estimate the train was about 20 minutes late when it (assuming it was the service) passed non-stop through Norbury. By that time it should have been at Victoria, so I would imagine that it went non-stop all the way, although I didn't notice if there were any passengers on board.

BTW. I didn't know that Sunday rostering was such a touchy subject. Hopefully I haven't ignited a flame war

edit: I see Yorkie has supplied the details. Thanks.

 

[dk1]

May well just be a rostering or train planning error. Happens quite often at weekends. No relief driver or even if no conductor its de-train & go foward ECS.

 

[bAzTNM]

The Sunday service from Bridgeton to Balloch on a Sunday is horrendous for those "Staff Shortage" delays.

 

[whhistle]

I find it strange how people still regard Sundays as a day of rest / no working / shorter shopping hours. Why is this? Why does the law state this? Sundays shouldn't mean anything special to anyone unless you are part of certain religions and as the majority of people aren't then it's time they started acting like that!

 

[LexyBoy]

Something might have happened on the way to work, car breakdown or accident for example

Maybe their train was cancelled due to staff shortages.

 

[pendolino]

depending on there t&c's Sunday may be voluntary and not enough drvers/guards tutned up, to put it bluntly unless TOC's offer a cery good reason to make Sundays part of the working week (££££££££) there will always be that problem (now I know that will cause shock horror with some people but thats the way it is)

Sundays on Southern are committed, i.e., contractual obligation to work them, but they are outside the working week.

 

[Hydro]

I've got committed Sundays, but again, outside of the working week. If it's on the roster you work it (it's only really on certain turns, and the Sundays are quite well shared out), but get the premiums for it. It does us well, there does need to be some financial incentive to work the Sunday as we spent a hell of a lot of time away from home as it is. To give up the one day a week outside of the roster needs some kind of compensation, as it were.

 

[pendolino]

Would a relatively short journey have a crew change mid-way?

Loads of services have a change of driver at Selhurst - a lot of them having only travelled one stop from East or West Croydon, which does seem a bit daft. But then a lot of Selhurst and Norwood drivers' turns start/finish at Selhurst station, and a lot of jobs include a PNB at Selhurst depot, or maybe taking a train into the depot then relieving another driver at Selhurst station.

 

[TDK]

Many factors can cause this -

1. Rostering error
2. Driver late for duty
3. Driver late on an incoming service
4. Driver taken off either due to sickness/incident/over hours

The train was run fast for the back working due to the fact there was another service due to stop at Norbury, if the original train had stopped at all stations this would have a knock on effect for the service of many other services for hours.

On the other hand many TOC's including the one I work for will issue a driver a special stop oreder to stop at a non timetabled stop to pick up passengers left anywhere due to a cancelled train.

 

[dk1]

Many factors can cause this -

1. Rostering error
2. Driver late for duty
3. Driver late on an incoming service
4. Driver taken off either due to sickness/incident/over hours

The train was run fast for the back working due to the fact there was another service due to stop at Norbury, if the original train had stopped at all stations this would have a knock on effect for the service of many other services for hours.

On the other hand many TOC's including the one I work for will issue a driver a special stop oreder to stop at a non timetabled stop to pick up passengers left anywhere due to a cancelled train.

Often trains terminating short or missing stops will be done for the greater good & to help with service recovery. Passengers usually do not know this & often i find that as long as they dont wait too long, explaining the situation to them they then see the bigger picture rather than just go away thinking we did it for the hell of it.

 

[Minstral25]

Southern do both staff shortages and cutting stations.

I think the government should explore this in the new franchise plans - actually expecting TOC's to have a few spare stock and staff in case of problems at key points on the line. Yes it is a bit of a waste but it would mean that the railways are more reliable and provide a customer service.

As for Sunday working, it should be part of the shift work rosters for Railway Staff not voluntary - it's what you sign up for when working on a seven day operation like the railways. To do otherwise the risk to the service reliability of not getting enough volunteers would be too high - it must not be forgotten again that the railway is a service for passengers. However Railway staff should get a premium for working on Sundays without question as it is a shift situation.

Both of these points should be led by the government instead of micromanaging stock and services. Can't see the DfT doing that though.

 

[whhistle]

I have seen the term "micromanaging" beaten about a lot on the forums recently.
Do you even know what it actually means, or has it just become another phrase used such as "step up to the plate" and "price hike" and such? There was an interesting article on the BBC website about it.

 

[Jonny]

I find it strange how people still regard Sundays as a day of rest / no working / shorter shopping hours. Why is this? Why does the law state this? Sundays shouldn't mean anything special to anyone unless you are part of certain religions and as the majority of people aren't then it's time they started acting like that!

Sunday is often presented as being "the sabbath" - even though Sabbath is a transliteration of the Hebrew word for Saturday. The history of how the practice got changed is long and dark, and owes its origin to a psuedo-Christian cult known as the Roman Catholic "Church" whose official doctrine varies from the Bible in so many places that it is institutionally heretical. And yes, they expect everybody to join their cult...

Edit: I should point out that this is not aimed at any individual. Apart, of course, from the higher-ups who know what they are doing.

 

[SS4]

I find it strange how people still regard Sundays as a day of rest / no working / shorter shopping hours. Why is this? Why does the law state this? Sundays shouldn't mean anything special to anyone unless you are part of certain religions and as the majority of people aren't then it's time they started acting like that!

Hundreds/Thousands of years ago people had no idea how the Earth actually worked so they made up explanations for what they saw the most common that it was the will of a supernatural being. The Sunday comes from creationism, a theory with no evidence to support it and one that is disproved by natural observation.
Simultaneously, they taught this as absolute truth and instilled fear into anyone who refused to accept it as absolute truth or decided they would question it. Their master stroke was to teach this to children whom, with developing brains would accept anything their parents told them (this has grounds in natural selection - a parent could warn the child that a wolf is dangerous). These children grew up believing the lies implanted in their heads constantly and become fanatical for the cause (sounds familiar?)

These two causes amalgamated and we now know it as religion - which could not have started without the first and cannot continue to exist without the second.


But I digress, as XCDriver said there are myriad reasons why crew would be late whether traffic, sickness etc

 

[Smudger105e]

- it must not be forgotten again that the railway is a service for passengers.

the 'railway' is not a service for passengers, it is a business to create money for the shareholders. This changed the moment British Rail was privatised.

 

[TDK]

Southern do both staff shortages and cutting stations.

I think the government should explore this in the new franchise plans - actually expecting TOC's to have a few spare stock and staff in case of problems at key points on the line. Yes it is a bit of a waste but it would mean that the railways are more reliable and provide a customer service.

As for Sunday working, it should be part of the shift work rosters for Railway Staff not voluntary - it's what you sign up for when working on a seven day operation like the railways. To do otherwise the risk to the service reliability of not getting enough volunteers would be too high - it must not be forgotten again that the railway is a service for passengers. However Railway staff should get a premium for working on Sundays without question as it is a shift situation.

Both of these points should be led by the government instead of micromanaging stock and services. Can't see the DfT doing that though.

Well, firstly if any TOC had spare stock and staff they would run extra services if the infrastructure could cope, also that idea is expensive and you don't have 2 cars in case one breaks down.

Secondly, with some companies you do not sign up to work a seven day week as the contract you actually sign quotes Sundays as voluntary. By the government do you mean added to a franchise agreement?