Super off peak fare removal on Great Northern

[James90012]

Not sure if this is well documented already, but noticed this sign this morning at Hitchin. There has been zero warning about this but I can't check what the 'small difference' is as the super off peaks are not available.

I presume this is related to the extension of Contactless and needing the simpler fares?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hitchin to London Terminals, Off Peak Day Return is/was £25.60. The Super Off Peak Day Return (weekday version) was £25.20.

 

[James H]

Here's the web page - saw it mentioned on Reddit the other day

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/service-updates/rail-fares-have-changed

• We have made this change to simplify the fares we offer customers.
• Not every station or journey has Super Off-Peak fares available, and where it was available the difference in price between Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on weekdays for journeys to London was very small, in some cases as little as 10p, but the restrictions on travel in the evening peak meant they were significantly less flexible.
• Where they were very close in price, we have removed the Super Off-Peak fares on weekdays. Off-Peak tickets give customers a lot more freedom on when they travel so they do not have to worry about what time train they use in an afternoon or evening.
• All ticket revenue is received by the Government and reinvested to help cover the costs of running, maintaining and improving the railway.

 

[Haywain]

"Difference in price... was very small". So, in reality, "not much of a price rise" but still another increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Difference in price... was very small". So, in reality, "not much of a price rise" but still another increase.

I most strongly support this sort of simplification - there is no benefit of having two fares that are pennies apart. See also a very large number of Northern and TPE Only fares.

The kind of simplification to oppose is that being done by LNER which is causing substantial (50% plus) increases.

 

[JonathanH]

Two things on this:

A more honest phrase is needed than "We have made this change to simplify the fares we offer customers." If that is the objective, why did they exist in the first place?

As we know, but perhaps other users won't, Project Oval, when it is extended to this area, will introduce evening peak restrictions on the off-peak tickets that they are promoting as being more flexible, so "Off-Peak tickets give customers a lot more freedom on when they travel so they do not have to worry about what time train they use in an afternoon or evening." is perhaps a bit disingenuous, even if it is correct right now.

A bit odd that it is introduced from 9 June, and not the fares round on 18 May.

There doesn't appear to be a similar change in other parts of the GTR network today.

 

[Haywain]

I most strongly support this sort of simplification - there is no benefit of having two fares that are pennies apart. See also a very large number of Northern and TPE Only fares.

The kind of simplification to oppose is that being done by LNER which is causing substantial (50% plus) increases.

It could have been done by simply adopting the lower fare, but wasn’t. By whatever metric, it’s a fare increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could have been done by simply adopting the lower fare, but wasn’t. By whatever metric, it’s a fare increase.

A worthwhile one in my view. DfT is only going to cut funding for the railway, not increase it, so we can't really hope for big fare decreases. Even the Oval fares pretty much just averaged the two which is the best that can be expected, but with rail fares priced in 10p increments you actually can't average the 10p ones.

 

[Hadders]

To be honest, this is sensible.

A bit of history....

• Historically the Off Peak Day Return had no evening restrictions
• In 2007, First Capital Connect introduced evening peak restrictions on many Off Peak Day Returns, supposedly to manage train loadings but it was effectively a massive fares increase for off peak travel (especially as at the time a Network Railcard couldn't be used to discount Anytime fares!)
• I can't remember exactly when, but I think it was around 2018/19 GTR renamed the Off Peak Day Return to Super Off Peak Day Return, keeping the same price and the evening peak restrictions (and adding a 10:30 morning start)
• At the same time they introduced a new Off Peak Day Return costing a few pence more but cruically with no evenng restrictions.

From Stevenage the difference in price between the Super Off Peak Day Return and Off Peak Day Return is 30p (20p with a railcard), which is frankly ridiculous so I don't have an issue with the fare being simplified and removed. Effectively we are returning to the historical fares structure pre-2007.

There are however two watch-outs:

1. We need to hope that evening restrictions do not get introduced on the Off Peak Day Return. I fear that under Project Oval this will happen and if this happens that would represent a significant price increase.
2. The weekend version of the Super Off Peak Day Return isn't simplified by its removal. Again, I can see this happening as part of Project Oval....

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. We need to hope that evening restrictions do not get introduced on the Off Peak Day Return. I fear that under Project Oval this will happen and if this happens that would represent a significant price increase.

On the WCML the Oval Off Peak is roughly an average of the former Off Peak and Super Off Peak but with evening restrictions as are required for Oval. I suspect more of the same (so it'd be reduced a bit but gain restrictions).

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Two things on this:

A more honest phrase is needed than "We have made this change to simplify the fares we offer customers." If that is the objective, why did they exist in the first place?

As we know, but perhaps other users won't, Project Oval, when it is extended to this area, will introduce evening peak restrictions on the off-peak tickets that they are promoting as being more flexible, so "Off-Peak tickets give customers a lot more freedom on when they travel so they do not have to worry about what time train they use in an afternoon or evening." is perhaps a bit disingenuous, even if it is correct right now.

A bit odd that it is introduced from 9 June, and not the fares round on 18 May.

There doesn't appear to be a similar change in other parts of the GTR network today.

The Fares Round went live for travel yesterday - the FSRs do not always align with the timetable changes, much less of an issue now that paper Fares Manuals are not produced (and hence the restrictions do not need to be printed to align with multiple timetables, if the FSRs do not align).

 

[JonathanH]

The Fares Round went live for travel yesterday

Ah, I was taking the 18 May date from the way in which BRFares was showing it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Fares Round went live for travel yesterday - the FSRs do not always align with the timetable changes, much less of an issue now that paper Fares Manuals are not produced (and hence the restrictions do not need to be printed to align with multiple timetables, if the FSRs do not align).

Since the pandemic, the traditional January fares change has been pushed back to March, so the May and September changes have also been pushed back slightly.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Ah, I was taking the 18 May date from the way in which BRFares was showing it.

Right, sorry about the confusion that has caused. I am not aware of any official list and so have been "guessing" the change dates for BR Fares based on dates on which a larger-than-usual number of changes happen. 18 May certainly fitted this description a few weeks ago.

so the May and September changes have also been pushed back slightly

Are you saying that 8 June is effectively the May fares change this year? I don't doubt that based on the number of changes that happened yesterday but it would be great if there was some sort of official source announcing it.

In any case I have updated BR Fares to show 8 June as the start of the new fares round, so it is clearer.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are you saying that 8 June is effectively the May fares change this year? I don't doubt that based on the number of changes that happened yesterday but it would be great if there was some sort of official source announcing it.

That's correct, though with the four week advance sale date the new fares would have been live in retail systems from 11th May for journeys on or after 8th June.

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a public-facing list of change dates anywhere, though I'd hope retailers are advised in advance.

 

[Joe Paxton]

To be honest, this is sensible.

A bit of history....

• Historically the Off Peak Day Return had no evening restrictions
• In 2007, First Capital Connect introduced evening peak restrictions on many Off Peak Day Returns, supposedly to manage train loadings but it was effectively a massive fares increase for off peak travel (especially as at the time a Network Railcard couldn't be used to discount Anytime fares!)
• I can't remember exactly when, but I think it was around 2018/19 GTR renamed the Off Peak Day Return to Super Off Peak Day Return, keeping the same price and the evening peak restrictions (and adding a 10:30 morning start)
• At the same time they introduced a new Off Peak Day Return costing a few pence more but cruically with no evenng restrictions.

From Stevenage the difference in price between the Super Off Peak Day Return and Off Peak Day Return is 30p (20p with a railcard), which is frankly ridiculous so I don't have an issue with the fare being simplified and removed. Effectively we are returning to the historical fares structure pre-2007.
[...]

The introduction of the evening peak restriction (on Off-peak Day Returns) by FCC in 2007 was a big thing at the time... how comes GTR effectively abandoned it with the shuffle you describe in circa 2018/19 - did the 2007 FCC restrictions come to be seen as ineffective or unnecessary?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The introduction of the evening peak restriction (on Off-peak Day Returns) by FCC in 2007 was a big thing at the time... how comes GTR effectively abandoned it with the shuffle you describe in circa 2018/19 - did the 2007 FCC restrictions come to be seen as ineffective or unnecessary?

I don't know but the exact same thing happened on the WCML - they moved to a three-step structure of Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak, with the price of each of the latter being either side of the original Off Peak which did have evening restrictions. This remains in place for non-Oval journeys but for Oval ones it's gone back to two steps.

 

[Haywain]

did the 2007 FCC restrictions come to be seen as ineffective or unnecessary?

Probably more that they were a bit of both, because the evening peak period is more spread out. This meant lots of people either having significant excess fares* to pay or lots of time to hang around, and then crush loading on the first trains after the peak.

*Less on the GN than on the MML side of FCC/Thameslink.

 

[Watershed]

Out of the many fares changes that have happened in the last few years, this is one of the few that I can support. In an ideal world, the Off-Peak fares would have been reduced to the cost of the former Super Off-Peak fares, or they would have split the difference, but in reality the Super Off-Peak fares simply caused more confusion and complexity than the miniscule saving was worth. I think getting rid of that was worth the very small increase that it will cause. It is certainly an increase that is far more justifiable than what GWR are doing with thrice-yearly increases on the Thames Valley.

 

[unsatisfied]

There are however two watch-outs:

1. We need to hope that evening restrictions do not get introduced on the Off Peak Day Return. I fear that under Project Oval this will happen and if this happens that would represent a significant price increase.

Evening restrictions have been introduced around March on London Zone journeys to the new contactless zone, for example Richmond to Virginia Water, effectively an additional 43% fare hike. I am confident this will continue to happen.

 

[OneOfThe48]

There doesn't appear to be a similar change in other parts of the GTR network today.

I believe it’s only happened for most of the ECML stations because the fare difference between the Super Off Peak and regular Off Peak is only relatively small on the ECML.

For Harlington for instance it would’ve been roughly £6, which was probably too much

1. We need to hope that evening restrictions do not get introduced on the Off Peak Day Return. I fear that under Project Oval this will happen and if this happens that would represent a significant price increase.

I’d get prepared to see evening peak restrictions unfortunately, think it’s very unlikely they won’t be introduced with the next Oval round

 

[JonathanH]

I’d get prepared to see evening peak restrictions unfortunately, think it’s very unlikely they won’t be introduced with the next Oval round

There is no avoiding the fact that Oval comes with evening peak restrictions for the peak flow, and sometimes for the London-bound direction as well, so yes, that is certain. The off-peak day travelcard tends to provide a cap though so becomes the de facto off-peak day return to London. It doesn't help much with the shorter distance journeys that don't reach London.

I believe it’s only happened for most of the ECML stations because the fare difference between the Super Off Peak and regular Off Peak is only relatively small on the ECML.

For Harlington for instance it would’ve been roughly £6, which was probably too much

Yes, that seems apparent, although again, they are going to need to come up with something before the Oval extension.

 

[Hadders]

I’d get prepared to see evening peak restrictions unfortunately, think it’s very unlikely they won’t be introduced with the next Oval round

I'm sure you're right. It's sort of strange that they've removed the Off Peak rather than the Super Off Peak.

Given that non-Oval contactless already reaches Welwyn Garden City with the historical fares structire left unchanged it'll be interesting to see what happens when Oval comes in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure you're right. It's sort of strange that they've removed the Off Peak rather than the Super Off Peak.

Given that non-Oval contactless already reaches Welwyn Garden City with the historical fares structire left unchanged it'll be interesting to see what happens when Oval comes in.

Oval is a bit "halfway house" compared to typical South East (Super) Off Peaks. What we've ended up with on the WCML is a morning restriction like the old Off Peak and an evening one a lot less stringent than the Super Off Peak was, and a fare roughly half way between them. Which, aside from the single fare pricing, is basically just going back to what went before LM went to three steps.

I think it has to be uniform to work with Oval though? And if you have different restrictions for paper and Oval, that just gets confusing.

 

[OscarH]

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a public-facing list of change dates anywhere, though I'd hope retailers are advised in advance

Mostly fares rounds don't exist anymore from a retail point of view. Fares can change any day, and the usual 4 week horizon from the start date applies to any change on any date, part of an "FSR" or not.

Retailers typically only get told when the horizon is going to be non-standard like those silly "change on the day they take affect" from the last few years March changes until it went back to normal this year (and we got a reminder it was normal this year in that case).

 

[Starmill]

The introduction of the evening peak restriction (on Off-peak Day Returns) by FCC in 2007 was a big thing at the time... how comes GTR effectively abandoned it with the shuffle you describe in circa 2018/19 - did the 2007 FCC restrictions come to be seen as ineffective or unnecessary?

They made the morning restrictions tighter when they introduced the Super Off Peak, and loosened them a little bit for some stations for the Off Peak. Oval usually sees a random chance of tightening for the morning peak, as there's almost never any give to catch a train just before 0930, except where people are willing to touch in at exactly 0630, even if the first train from their station isn't actually until 0650 or whatever.

 

[Verulamius]

Any changes for St Albans?

 

[AY1975]

The announcement on the Great Northern website, and the notice in the photo linked from entry #1 above, only mentions weekday Super Off-Peak fares being withdrawn, which could be taken to imply that they are still available at weekends, but if you look up a weekend journey on any of the affected routes on the GN site it doesn't advertise a weekend Super Off-Peak Return as such, but it quotes a cheaper Off-Peak Return fare that on weekdays.

For example for Shepreth to King's Cross, the Off-Peak Day Return on weekdays is £31.40, and at weekends it's £21.10, but brfares.com still quotes the £21.10 as a Super Off-Peak Day Return available only at weekends.

Also, for some journeys such as Shepreth to King's Cross, Advance fares are available but the difference in price of two Advances compared to the cheapest return fare is often minimal.

 

[Scotty]

The announcement on the Great Northern website, and the notice in the photo linked from entry #1 above, only mentions weekday Super Off-Peak fares being withdrawn, which could be taken to imply that they are still available at weekends, but if you look up a weekend journey on any of the affected routes on the GN site it doesn't advertise a weekend Super Off-Peak Return as such, but it quotes a cheaper Off-Peak Return fare that on weekdays.

For example for Shepreth to King's Cross, the Off-Peak Day Return on weekdays is £31.40, and at weekends it's £21.10, but brfares.com still quotes the £21.10 as a Super Off-Peak Day Return available only at weekends.

Also, for some journeys such as Shepreth to King's Cross, Advance fares are available but the difference in price of two Advances compared to the cheapest return fare is often minimal.

I've just checked the Peterborough fare (as this is one I use) on both BRFares and the GN site... indeed they do advertise the £27.10 Super Off Peak Day Return GN fare as "Off Peak" on the left hand side but when you select it, it does show it as "Super Off-Peak Day Return" on the right.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For example for Shepreth to King's Cross, the Off-Peak Day Return on weekdays is £31.40, and at weekends it's £21.10, but brfares.com still quotes the £21.10 as a Super Off-Peak Day Return available only at weekends.

Sorry, what's the point you're endeavouring to make? When I look at Great Northern's site for travel on a Saturday, it offers me various tickets, including a Super Off Peak Day return at £21.10 for a there and back day return journey from Shepreth to Kings Cross. It also offers 2 x £10.50 advance singles for certain trains (one each way), the 10p "saving" being scarcely worth the loss of flexibility. Other more expensive tickets are available, such as the £31.40 Off Peak Day Return, but why would you buy them on a Saturday? Or is this, perhaps, another example of cheaper fares not being offered on some trains?