Future of the 350/2s

[AlastairFraser]

8-car Manchester to Blackpool would be great

Does the service really warrant a couple of extra carriages and 100mph vs 90mph units though?

If the Windermere/Furness lines were electrified, I'd agree, because you have some long high speed sections where the increased top speed might make a bit of a difference (Lancaster to Preston, Chorley to Bolton, Preston to Chorley etc..), but for Manchester to Blackpool, the longest high speed sections where you could make any difference are Salford Crescent to Bolton and Preston to Kirkham & Wesham.

The section from Preston to Kirkham & Wesham has a max. limit of 75 according to the Sectional Appendix, and I don't think the time saving Salford Crescent to Bolton would be significant enough to warrant the use of the 350s over the 323s. Extra carriages would be nice, but I'd rather Northern focus their resources on introducing those on the overcrowded Man Airport to Windermere/Barrow in Furness services first.

 

[The Ham]

Yes the 350s only have Unit Deselect rather than full SDO fitted. On the 350s the Guard can open the front 4 coaches only (on a 8 coach or 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 5 and activating the UDS switch or can open the front 8 coaches only (on a 12 coach train) by going to the cab in coach 9 and activating the UDS switch. So they only have a very limited SDO that allows either 4 or 8 or 12 coaches to open. However the very similar 185s and 444s and 450s also used to have this UDS system but have since had proper ASDO fitted so retrofitting the 350s with full ASDO should be very easy.

Unless you've got a station with high usage and the ability to platform 2 or 3 extra coaches I'm not sure that there's much to be gained from SDO by coach rather than by unit.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Just a possibility, would it not be possible for them to go to scotrail to replace 318 and 320s?

 

[Trainbike46]

Possible? probably.

Likely? not so much based on earlier discussion of that suggestion upthread (or possibly another Scotrail thread somewhere)

The last time I saw anything on replacement EMUs for Scotrail, it was the plan to order a new fleet of EMUs and BEMUs, to replace the older EMUs, as well as most DMUs on the Scotrail network. A desire was expressed to reduce the number of types of rolling stock with Scotrail to reduce complexity.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The 350/2 units will sit around for about 18 months and then go for scrap. There is no operator prepared to take on redundant stock. That’s it. The only reason they aren’t going for scrap now is because they need to go through the motions. But if there was interest it would have been declared by now.

 

[liamf656]

The 350/2 units will sit around for about 18 months and then go for scrap. There is no operator prepared to take on redundant stock. That’s it. The only reason they aren’t going for scrap now is because they need to go through the motions. But if there was interest it would have been declared by now.

We thought the same about the 379s though and look where they are

 

[Brubulus]

The 350/2 units will sit around for about 18 months and then go for scrap. There is no operator prepared to take on redundant stock. That’s it. The only reason they aren’t going for scrap now is because they need to go through the motions. But if there was interest it would have been declared by now.

I can see them going to Northern, or the more unlikely event is that DfT takes the 387s from GWR to give to a third rail operator, to try and shrink any networker replacement order by the maximum extent. GWR gets the 350/2s. However that's unlikely.
The more likely solution is they go to northern to replace the 323, with no pure emus ordered as part of the fleet replacement, so they'll also have to deal with Transpennine services.

Scrappage is very unlikely given the need for new trains in multiple areas of the network and their relative newness. 365s were around 10 years older than 350/2s.

 

[milooo]

I can see them going to Northern, or the more unlikely event is that DfT takes the 387s from GWR to give to a third rail operator, to try and shrink any networker replacement order by the maximum extent. GWR gets the 350/2s. However that's unlikely.
The more likely solution is they go to northern to replace the 323, with no pure emus ordered as part of the fleet replacement, so they'll also have to deal with Transpennine services.

Scrappage is very unlikely given the need for new trains in multiple areas of the network and their relative newness. 365s were around 10 years older than 350/2s.

I could see them going to gtr maybe if se want more 377s..

 

[Brubulus]

I could see them going to gtr maybe if se want more 377s..

The 379s have already gone to GN, only 700s can run through the core.

 

[milooo]

The 379s have already gone to GN, only 700s can run through the core.

Sorry I meant the rest of the 387s to sn

 

[Snow1964]

The 350/2 units will sit around for about 18 months and then go for scrap. There is no operator prepared to take on redundant stock. That’s it. The only reason they aren’t going for scrap now is because they need to go through the motions. But if there was interest it would have been declared by now.

I thought multiple operators have been holding off for couple of years, pending the spending review (due to be announced in 3 days). They simply don't know yet if they will be allowed to spend on new trains, or will have to make do with surplus units from elsewhere.

I could easily see them converted to BEMUs to replace some 1980s diesel trains. There has to be a reason why Siemens has just spent money making an electric/battery test facility at Long Marston.

 

[Robin Edwards]

I'm sure it's not just me saying, but this particular part of a privatised rail system in the UK continues to show how money isn't used effectively on spent assets.

There are plenty of examples of trains running with lack of capacity yet there are storage facilities around the country with scores of usable (and some new!) stock.
The off-leasing and re-use of latest examples 379 & 175 (now 350/2s?) over a gap of several years doesn't present the country with great value - I'm likely preaching hear the obvious however!

How can any positive changes from GBR affect the efficient utilisation of stock in future - given also that Lumo are to use Diesels under the wcml wires - when refurbed 350/2s could be reused instead of 222s?

 

[JonathanH]

How can any positive changes from GBR affect the efficient utilisation of stock in future - given also that Lumo are to use Diesels under the wcml wires - when refurbed 350/2s could be reused instead of 222s?

Past evidence with the 379s and 175s (and indeed the 221s) is that DfT has a plan with what to do with spare rolling stock, but not the funding available to enact it.

That suggests that there may well be multiple options for using the 350s but a clear business case needs to be approved first.

 

[Peter0124]

The 350/2's would have been better for Stirling to London given its entirely under wires, only issue being they're 100mph units on a 125mph two track railway.

 

[Chiltern006]

Technically they’re 110, plus the West Coast has the 397s north of Wigan which can only do 110 I think?

 

[stevieinselby]

The last time I saw anything on replacement EMUs for Scotrail, it was the plan to order a new fleet of EMUs and BEMUs, to replace the older EMUs, as well as most DMUs on the Scotrail network. A desire was expressed to reduce the number of types of rolling stock with Scotrail to reduce complexity.

Scotrail already have class 380 Desiros, I don't know similar or how compatible they are to the 350s and so whether they would be considered to be close enough for jazz that it wasn't adding complexity.
The bigger problem, depending on where they would be used, would be that the Glasgow network is designed for 6-car trains and so 4-car sets don't allow for that – although at the moment East Kilbride seems almost exclusively 4-car sets, and a significant minority of other suburban services are using 3- and 4-car formations these days, so it may not be such an issue.

 

[Trainbike46]

Scotrail already have class 380 Desiros, I don't know similar or how compatible they are to the 350s and so whether they would be considered to be close enough for jazz that it wasn't adding complexity.
The bigger problem, depending on where they would be used, would be that the Glasgow network is designed for 6-car trains and so 4-car sets don't allow for that – although at the moment East Kilbride seems almost exclusively 4-car sets, and a significant minority of other suburban services are using 3- and 4-car formations these days, so it may not be such an issue.

The discussion I referred to in my post was mostly about 3 vs 4 car in Glasgow suburban.

The point was, I haven't seen anything suggesting Scotrail is even remotely considering cascaded EMUs. The only thing I have seen was the (now quiet) plan to replace almost the entire scotrail fleet with 3 new fleets:
- An IC-fleet (Likely changed into the 222s for the forseeable)
- A Far North, Kyle of Lochalsh, and Stranraer fleet (possibly hydrogen)
- A suburban / everywhere else fleet of compatible and very similar EMUs and BEMUs (to replace the existing EMU and DMU fleets on basically every other line, introduced in steps)

The 350s don't really fit any of those. That doesn't make it impossible that they would go to Scotrail, but combined with the 3/4 car issue, does make it unlikely.

 

[Class450/4DES]

I thought multiple operators have been holding off for couple of years, pending the spending review (due to be announced in 3 days). They simply don't know yet if they will be allowed to spend on new trains, or will have to make do with surplus units from elsewhere.

I could easily see them converted to BEMUs to replace some 1980s diesel trains. There has to be a reason why Siemens has just spent money making an electric/battery test facility at Long Marston.

As said a few times before. They could work for SWR. They are very similar to the 450's and can be converted to run on battery alongside the 450's to run Waterloo-Westcountry trains to replace the 158/159's alongside running duties the 450's already do.

 

[tfw756rider]

The 350/2's would have been better for Stirling to London given its entirely under wires, only issue being they're 100mph units on a 125mph two track railway.

The 350/2s have been 110mph since 2018 (and 350/1s since 2012, 350/3s and 350/4s from new in 2013/4, and 360/1s since 2020-21).

 

[Peter0124]

The 350/2s have been 110mph since 2018 (and 350/1s since 2012, 350/3s and 350/4s from new in 2013/4, and 360/1s since 2020-21).

Thats news for me, apologies

 

[Trainbike46]

As said a few times before. They could work for SWR. They are very similar to the 450's and can be converted to run on battery alongside the 450's to run Waterloo-Westcountry trains to replace the 158/159's alongside running duties the 450's already do.

Does SWR need more stock, given the enormous amount of 701 joining their fleet?

 

[stevieinselby]

Does SWR need more stock, given the enormous amount of 701 joining their fleet?

The suggestion is that they are converted to bi-mode so that they can replace the diesel fleet – unlikely that they would have enough EMUs from their current fleet to be able to convert 35–40 of them to BMUs even with the Aventras.

Given the, ahem, success of converting the 319s to 769 Flex, we may be sceptical about how well that would work, but maybe enough lessons were learnt from that project that it will go better next time around. If it does work out, maybe a further batch could be converted for use on the North Downs line!

 

[Kite159]

I can see them going to Northern, or the more unlikely event is that DfT takes the 387s from GWR to give to a third rail operator, to try and shrink any networker replacement order by the maximum extent. GWR gets the 350/2s. However that's unlikely.
The more likely solution is they go to northern to replace the 323, with no pure emus ordered as part of the fleet replacement, so they'll also have to deal with Transpennine services.

Scrappage is very unlikely given the need for new trains in multiple areas of the network and their relative newness. 365s were around 10 years older than 350/2s.

Likewise, solely as 323 replacements when the big Northern fleet replacement program gets cut back in the spending review to be focused on replacement for the diesels.

 

[43096]

The suggestion is that they are converted to bi-mode so that they can replace the diesel fleet – unlikely that they would have enough EMUs from their current fleet to be able to convert 35–40 of them to BMUs even with the Aventras.

Given SWR are running a significantly less intensive peak timetable, that they have the 701 fleet sized for the full pre-Covid timetable and have the 28 x 458/4 sets, then they should be able to free enough sets to convert to battery/bionic duckweed for any putative 15x replacement.

 

[Russel]

Given the, ahem, success of converting the 319s to 769 Flex, we may be sceptical about how well that would work, but maybe enough lessons were learnt from that project that it will go better next time around. If it does work out, maybe a further batch could be converted for use on the North Downs line!

This is my concern, I can't think of any of these type of conversions that have actually been a long term success.

 

[brad465]

The suggestion is that they are converted to bi-mode so that they can replace the diesel fleet – unlikely that they would have enough EMUs from their current fleet to be able to convert 35–40 of them to BMUs even with the Aventras.

Given the, ahem, success of converting the 319s to 769 Flex, we may be sceptical about how well that would work, but maybe enough lessons were learnt from that project that it will go better next time around. If it does work out, maybe a further batch could be converted for use on the North Downs line!

The 319s were 15-17 years older than the 350s (but maybe knock a few years off to account for when the former's conversion took place), so it's possible a 350 conversion would be more successful than the 319s, as the 350s are much newer. I would hope a hypothetical 350 conversion though is to battery rather than diesel-electric bi-mode, particularly as retrofitted battery trials appear to have a much better success rate (see TPE 802s and that 379 battery trial many years ago).

 

[Liam L]

The more likely solution is they go to northern to replace the 323, with no pure emus ordered as part of the fleet replacement, so they'll also have to deal with Transpennine services.

Highly unlikely, Northern have got a tender out to refurbishment the ex WMT units to bring them up to standard with the 17 they already had.

I doubt they be willing to invest in rolling stock which will be replacing.

 

[465fan]

Seems odd that nobody has considered something like a replacement of the 331s, 333s and what not on the Wharfedale, Airedale and the Donny route. No more 3 car operation, and possible to then use them a bit more when TRU is done on Leeds - York stoppers, or Huddersfield - Leeds stoppers. It's still a Siemens product, and would allow the 333s to finally get gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems odd that nobody has considered something like a replacement of the 331s, 333s and what not on the Wharfedale, Airedale and the Donny route. No more 3 car operation, and possible to then use them a bit more when TRU is done on Leeds - York stoppers, or Huddersfield - Leeds stoppers. It's still a Siemens product, and would allow the 333s to finally get gone.

Remember they're only 4x20m, which gives them roughly the same capacity as 3x24m.

 

[D365]

Seems odd that nobody has considered something like a replacement of the 331s, 333s and what not on the Wharfedale, Airedale and the Donny route. No more 3 car operation, and possible to then use them a bit more when TRU is done on Leeds - York stoppers, or Huddersfield - Leeds stoppers.

Northern is in the process of procuring 12 x 3 car new EMUs for TRU.