Potential trainload freight flows between the UK and Europe

[Wavertreelad]

Moderator note: Split from

GBRf Class 99 - 30 locomotives now ordered

GBRf likely ordering 30 x 99s (not 20, it’s the wrong way round, eg 30 99s and 20 options) which are going to be sufficiently powerful to do intermodal trains on the Felixstowe as well as probably being for TPE Mk5s and Night Riviera...

www.railforums.co.uk

I suspect there are very few, if any, volumes of potential trainload freight flows between the UK and Europe as the market has changed since the tunnel was built.

The shuttles are popular now with the self drive market whether that be a transit van or 44 tonne truck and trailer, but the self drive sector is slowing because off a shortage of drivers and a reluctance by many drivers to come to the UK for fear of getting delayed by customs bureaucracy all of which makes this mode relatively expensive.

Whilst the self drive /accompanied mode shrinks, the unaccompanied trailer mode has grown dramatically particularly since Brexit, and it's particularly popular on the longer distance crossings, but here again these are single unit movements.

For the larger multiple unit moves, the shipping container is now probably king, especially on the longer routes from the Baltics, Iberia Italy, Greece and Turkey, with many operators able to offer 45ft euro pallet equipment, which provides a similar capacity to a 12m trailer.

Container shipping costs tend to be more competitive because their costing tend to be based on the single move, whereas trailer costings tend to involve a proportion of the cost of returning the empty unit to Europe due to the inherent imbalance between UK imports and UK exports.

 

[Trainman40083]

I suspect there are very few, if any, volumes of potential trainload freight flows between the UK and Europe as the market has changed since the tunnel was built. The shuttles are popular now with the self drive market whether that be a transit van or 44 tonne truck and trailer, but the self drive sector is slowing because off a shortage of drivers and a reluctance by many drivers to come to the UK for fear of getting delayed by customs bureaucracy all of which makes this mode relatively expensive. Whilst the self drive /accompanied mode shrinks the unaccompanied trailer mode has grown dramatically particularly since Brexit and it's particularly popular on the longer distance crossings but here again these are single unit movements. For the larger multiple unit moves, the shipping container is now probably king especially on the longer routes from the Baltics, Iberia Italy, Greece and Turkey with many operators able to offer 45ft euro pallet equipment which provides a similar capacity to a 12m trailer. Container shipping costs tend to be more competitive because their costing tend to be based on the single move, whereas trailer costings tend to involve a proportion of the cost of returning the empty unit to Europe due to the inherent imbalance between UK imports and UK exports..

Maybe container movement across Europe to the UK is the aim. But that might require gauge clearance through Kent
.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Maybe container movement across Europe to the UK is the aim. But that might require gauge clearance through Kent
.

I can't see it for intra European movements for the same reasons why there are no through movements by rail now.

However, prior to the war in Ukraine there was a growing market to mainland Europe, particularly Germany from China. These trains were operated for the pharmaceutical and motor vehicle industry, who wanted faster and more reliable transit times than available by ship.

At this point, it's worth considering that Yantian to Rotterdam via the Suez Canal route typically would take 23/24 days at least but you have to add at least a week or so at either end to allow for the formalities and customs clearance plus as well as the delivery to and from the port.

The Chinese rail service operated from major manufacturing centres in the west of the country, eliminating the need to move the goods to ports in the east of China. As a result the Chinese could get the transit time to a railhead at Duisberg Germany to around 12-16 days at half the price of a similar airfreight movement.

Sanctions on Russia and Russian checks on the goods transiting the Russian rail network I believe has reduced the movements dramatically and the Chinese were looking at alternatives via Asia, but how far this has developed I am not sure.

Interest from UK importers was limited because to move the goods from say Duisberg the goods have to move under customs bond which then requires the goods to presented at an approved location for the UK customs clearance and this why London Gateway Port became involved.

However, without the regular flows of trains through the tunnel, the only real alternative is for the containers to be de-vanned at Duisberg and the goods moved by road still under customs bond to the UK, but then you have various option including by ferry to Immingham or Killingholme or even Teesport apart from the more obvious alternatives of Dover, Sheerness, Tilbury, and Harwich which demonstrates the flexibility of the truck.

The other problem is that the Channel Tunnel authorities do not allow hazardous goods to carried as freight, so this further restricts the industries that even if they had the volumes in the first place that might be tempted to use it.

 

[BRX]

We're well off topic but supposedly they are going to try a swapbody service from Paris to Daventry later this year. That will be intra europe, I think the idea being that stuff (already) coming from italy & SE europe can be forwarded on to the uk.

 

[Wavertreelad]

We're well off topic but supposedly they are going to try a swapbody service from Paris to Daventry later this year. That will be intra europe, I think the idea being that stuff (already) coming from italy & SE europe can be forwarded on to the uk.

That could work because of the number of national distribution centres for major retailers are in the Daventry area.

There are several specialists already operating combined rail/ferry operations such as Luxembourg based CLDN. Whilst their European rail network is designed to connect to their ferry services to the UK, perhaps they could piggyback on their network and offer an alternative service with a UK rail partner through the tunnel.

CLdN | Multimodal Transport | CLdN

Explore CLdN’s multimodal transport solutions across Europe, combining sea, rail and road to deliver sustainable, reliable and cost‑effective freight services with wide network reach.

www.cldn.com

And then there is Medlog, the wholly owned subsidiary of Mediterranean Shipping Co, they have a growing network in Iberia and Italy and are perhaps better known in the UK as Maritime Transport Limited who they purchased in August 2023. They have the beauty of the access to MSC container equipment so empty units can be dropped off at the nearest MSC or Maritime Transport depot or even a UK Port. https://www.medlog.com/en/our-solutions/inland-transportation

 

[800001]

That could work because of the number of national distribution centres for major retailers are in the Daventry area.

There are several specialists already operating combined rail/ferry operations such as Luxembourg based CLDN. Whilst their European rail network is designed to connect to their ferry services to the UK, perhaps they could piggyback on their network and offer an alternative service with a UK rail partner through the tunnel.

CLdN | Multimodal Transport | CLdN

Explore CLdN’s multimodal transport solutions across Europe, combining sea, rail and road to deliver sustainable, reliable and cost‑effective freight services with wide network reach.

www.cldn.com

And then there is Medlog, the wholly owned subsidiary of Mediterranean Shipping Co, they have a growing network in Iberia and Italy and are perhaps better known in the UK as Maritime Transport Limited who they purchased in August 2023. They have the beauty of the access to MSC container equipment so empty units can be dropped off at the nearest MSC or Maritime Transport depot or even a UK Port. https://www.medlog.com/en/our-solutions/inland-transportation

LK Walter would be another good one, see many a full length train if there’s in Europe.

 

[Trainman40083]

I can't see it for intra European movements for the same reasons why there are no through movements by rail now.

However, prior to the war in Ukraine there was a growing market to mainland Europe, particularly Germany from China. These trains were operated for the pharmaceutical and motor vehicle industry, who wanted faster and more reliable transit times than available by ship.

At this point, it's worth considering that Yantian to Rotterdam via the Suez Canal route typically would take 23/24 days at least but you have to add at least a week or so at either end to allow for the formalities and customs clearance plus as well as the delivery to and from the port.

The Chinese rail service operated from major manufacturing centres in the west of the country, eliminating the need to move the goods to ports in the east of China. As a result the Chinese could get the transit time to a railhead at Duisberg Germany to around 12-16 days at half the price of a similar airfreight movement.

Sanctions on Russia and Russian checks on the goods transiting the Russian rail network I believe has reduced the movements dramatically and the Chinese were looking at alternatives via Asia, but how far this has developed I am not sure.

Interest from UK importers was limited because to move the goods from say Duisberg the goods have to move under customs bond which then requires the goods to presented at an approved location for the UK customs clearance and this why London Gateway Port became involved.

However, without the regular flows of trains through the tunnel, the only real alternative is for the containers to be de-vanned at Duisberg and the goods moved by road still under customs bond to the UK, but then you have various option including by ferry to Immingham or Killingholme or even Teesport apart from the more obvious alternatives of Dover, Sheerness, Tilbury, and Harwich which demonstrates the flexibility of the truck.

The other problem is that the Channel Tunnel authorities do not allow hazardous goods to carried as freight, so this further restricts the industries that even if they had the volumes in the first place that might be tempted to use it.

Just need some W12 (is it?) clearance through Kent, surely? If it becomes easier, then surely the rail freight will flow. Maybe some who make decisions work on "how can we NOT do it"

 

[zwk500]

Just need some W12 (is it?) clearance through Kent, surely? If it becomes easier, then surely the rail freight will flow. Maybe some who make decisions work on "how can we NOT do it"

For the UK-Europe traffic, it's not necessary to clear completely to W10/12 as that's for Deep-Sea traffic, whereas the road traffic that forms the majority of Channel Crossings are usually S45 Swapbodies or similar size, which only need W9+ clearance.
The International Freight traffic routes through Kent are mostly W8/W9 I think, and NR have made noises about clearing the routes for the bigger boxes before (there were some press articles and a thread about it).

I suspect the availability of paths through Kensington Olympia is as big, if not bigger, a problem as the route clearance though.

 

[Class15]

I suspect the availability of paths through Kensington Olympia is as big, if not bigger, a problem as the route clearance though.

Happy to be proved wrong of course, but I severely doubt that considering the number of ‘spare/protected’ DB Dollands Moor - Wembley (and return) paths.

 

[Trainman40083]

Happy to be proved wrong of course, but I severely doubt that considering the number of ‘spare/protected’ DB Dollands Moor - Wembley (and return) paths.

Say circa 29,000 containers per annum did come by rail.. How many trains would that equate to per day?

 

[sh24]

Say circa 29,000 containers per annum did come by rail.. How many trains would that equate to per day?

2-3 per day depending on 20ft/40ft/45ft and the wagon types used.

 

[hwl]

Just need some W12 (is it?) clearance through Kent, surely? If it becomes easier, then surely the rail freight will flow. Maybe some who make decisions work on "how can we NOT do it"

The problem is the best is currently W8 and there are no cheap options for W10/12 (and lots of disruption to do it). Hence DfT struggle to have belief in it funding it as Channel Tunnel Freight traffic has never done well and another problem always materialises.

 

[zwk500]

The problem is the best is currently W8 and there are no cheap options for W10/12 (and lots of disruption to do it). Hence DfT struggle to have belief in it funding it as Channel Tunnel Freight traffic has never done well and another problem always materialises.

I was shown the estimates a few years ago for clearing routes through Kent from the Channel Tunnel to Wembley Yard to W9+ and W12. It was a *very* substantial difference. The DfT and NR struggle to make a case for funding W12 to the Channel Tunnel because there's relatively limited traffic that wants to do it. As mentioned above, the traffic is (or at least was back then) S45 swapbody containers, which need W9+ but not W10/12.

On the other foot, if somebody could find the spare cash to get at least 1 route through kent cleared to UIC-GB gauge then there'd be a whole load of other traffics but I don't want to think what adding non-platform loops to a significant number of stations in South London would cost.

(For clarity, the numbers I was told included future-proofing any works done for W9+ clearance to W12 standard, it just meant that they left any structures currently clear of W9+ but not clear of W12 alone for the time being)

 

[Nottingham59]

I was shown the estimates a few years ago for clearing routes through Kent from the Channel Tunnel to Wembley Yard to W9+ and W12. It was a *very* substantial difference. The DfT and NR struggle to make a case for funding W12 to the Channel Tunnel because there's relatively limited traffic that wants to do it. As mentioned above, the traffic is (or at least was back then) S45 swapbody containers, which need W9+ but not W10/12.

Why can't they just go overnight to Barking Yard via HS1, and then pick up whatever route that intermodals use from London Gateway?

 

[zwk500]

Why can't they just go overnight to Barking Yard via HS1, and then pick up whatever route that intermodals use from London Gateway?

I mean, they can, but that might not work for the train crew, maintenance cycles, or customers. Also HS1 obviously requires locos to be fitted with TVM-430.

 

[ac6000cw]

Why can't they just go overnight to Barking Yard via HS1, and then pick up whatever route that intermodals use from London Gateway?

...or just take it across the Channel/North Sea in a container ship to London Gateway or Felixstowe (or even put it on an unaccompanied trailer on a ro-ro freight ferry to Felixstowe) to catch an intermodal train on the UK side.

We're an island, with ports that handle container traffic (and ro-ro) dotted around the coastline, competing with each other, whereas there's only one all-rail route - to a country which has never seemed to be very enthusiastic about open-access railfreight.

 

[HSTEd]

On the other foot, if somebody could find the spare cash to get at least 1 route through kent cleared to UIC-GB gauge then there'd be a whole load of other traffics but I don't want to think what adding non-platform loops to a significant number of stations in South London would cost.

I'd expect it'd be cheaper if you built a single track freight tunnel under London!

If you ran trains through under computer control you could delete a lot of the access and fire escape requirements.
But thats rather off topic.

The problem we fundamentally have, I guess, is that freight is fundamentally not a high margin endeavour in most caes.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Say circa 29,000 containers per annum did come by rail.. How many trains would that equate to per day?

To put that in perspective, all the ships on the Asia /Europe trade carry between 15000 and 24000 teu (twenty foot equivalent units), most of which will be 40ft teu or 40HC teu. (ie 9'6" high). A ship on this trade, and there are about 9 or 10 per week at least spread over the ports of Felixstowe, London Gateway Port and Southampton will exchange (discharge and load) up to 10000 teu on each port call. On top of that there are another five or six services from the Indian subcontinent using smaller 12000-15000 teu vessels and numerous other services for the Americas, Africa and of course Europe and the Mediterranean using even smaller vessels, of which about 30% move inland within the UK by rail. This does depend a little on the trade route and individual UK Port and the UK inland destination.

Whilst the shipping lines all operate directly or have access via third parties European feeder service these vary in size from usually 868 teu up to 3500 teu and in addition they can also load European cargo on mainline services in some cases. Then there the UK regional ports, the largest being Liverpool which is also capable of handling a 15000 teu vessel directly from Asia but in addition it about six sailing a week at least range from 1200 teu up to 2500 teu supplemented by direct calls from Hamburg/Le Havre range and four or five sailing a week from Iberia ranging between 868 teu and 1400 teu. On the East Coast there are at least six feeders a week from Rotterdam/Antwerp and Felixstowe into Grangemouth as well a couple of feeders into Teesport, Hull and Immingham but the last two are mainly ro/ro traffic ports, plus of course there are feeders between mainland Europe and the three southern UK container ports.

Clearly for the shipping lines, the priority is shifting the containers arriving or departing on their own services which perhaps explains in part the reasons why the shipping lines have never bothered to get involved in movements via the Chunnel, and hence why the market relies on specialists to develop the traffic.

Why can't they just go overnight to Barking Yard via HS1, and then pick up whatever route that intermodals use from London Gateway?

Whatever happens the trains can only operate directly to and from HMRC approved locations list below

Name	Address
British Steel	The Rail Terminal, Brigg Road, Scunthorpe. DN16 1BP
DB Cargo (UK) Limited	Box Lane, Barking. IG11 0SQ
Eddie Stobart Limited	DIRFT 1, Unit B, Railport Approach, Crick, Northamptonshire. NN6 7ES
Eddie Stobart Limited	DIRFT 2, DC420, Rugby Road, Warwickshire. CV23 8YH
Eddie Stobart Limited	Widnes Railhead, Mathieson Road, Widnes. WA8 0NX
Eurostar	Ashford International.
Eurostar	Ebbsfleet International.
Eurostar	Dollands Moor.
Eurostar	St Pancras International.
Ford Motor Company	Ford Motor Company Ltd, Transport Operations, Dagenham, Essex. RM9 6SA
Network Rail Infrastructure Limited	Eastleigh Long Welded Rail Depot, Dutton Lane, Eastleigh, Hampshire. SO50 6AA
STVA UK Ltd	Toton Traction Maintenance Depot Station Road, Stapleford, Nottingham. NG10 1HA
Tata Steel	Tata Steel UK Limited Llanwern Works, Newport. NP19 4QZ
UPM	Meadowhead Rd, Irvine. KA11 5AT
WHM Daventry	WH Malcom Ltd Railport, Daventry International Railport, Railport Approach, Crick, Kilsby, Northampton. NN6 7JZ

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...lement-523-of-the-customs-declaration-service

or a Port such as London Gateway Port due to the requirement for customs clearance. The fact that the list only includes four manufacturing premises perhaps gives an indication of why there are so few dedicated rail movements. It also demonstrates the other major problem, that any carrying a mix of goods could only travel to a single location for clearance and if just one shipment on the train was held by customs or any agency the whole train could be stranded. That's probably why the trains of mixed goods which do run end up at either London Gateway Port, or thanks to the customs bonding at origin at specialist operator depot, having being moved by road. Davies Turner in Dartford being one example involved in the Chinese rail movements.

...or just take it across the Channel/North Sea in a container ship to London Gateway or Felixstowe (or even put it on an unaccompanied trailer on a ro-ro freight ferry to Felixstowe) to catch an intermodal train on the UK side.

We're an island, with ports that handle container traffic (and ro-ro) dotted around the coastline, competing with each other, whereas there's only one all-rail route - to a country which has never seemed to be very enthusiastic about open-access railfreight.

Indeed.