MML Electrification: is it going to be completed?

[edwin_m]

If MML is wired it'll [Birmingham-Derby) be the only stretch of 125mph railway without electrification left. I don't think any other country other than USA would have let that even be possible.

It would also allow the Birmingham-Nottingham service to go over to EMUs, which should help with accommodating the extra stops and hopefully speed these rather slow services up a bit. Under this scenario the main NE-SW service would be some sort of bi-mode to run beyond Birmingham, and I'd expect this fleet to cover the Nottingham-Cardiff also.

 

[ChrisC]

My prediction: Yes.

When? Don't know. With the 810s coming there's no immediate rush, but I think it'll happen eventually.

All the money which is being invested in the new bi mode 810's could result in many years delay. If they are successful will it still be a priority during the next 30+ years to electrify the line north of Wigston through Leicester to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield?

 

[Iskra]

I'd also like to see Birmingham-Derby electrified for any future XC order alongside potentially enabling HS2 to Sheffield if a link is ever put in between HS2 and the XC route. HS2 services to Derby and Sheffield would be great and if this was done via a link to a refurbished South Staffordshire line, could be at a reasonable cost.

Though the best we can reasonably hope for in reality is for the line to be electrified to Sheffield, with a vague future ambition for further electrification.

If you’re going to Sheffield, continuing to Moorthorpe as a minimum would be incredibly sensible. Doncaster, would be a lesser priority but also sensible.

The main issue with Sheffield is that it’s a big job with the station needing re-modelling at the same time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am sure many might say £2bn for better public transport links between Derby and Nottingham was good use of money but what is wrong with them now? The Red Arrow is even getting new coaches this year. But I would think more people travel by train between Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield and Leicester.

My bold. The trouble with that is will it look like a section of route with one end pointing towards London. Unfashionable.

Birmingham to Derby and Sheffield to Leeds are the kind of route which should be coming along in the medium term, to be ready for the replacement of the XC rolling stock. I won't be holding my breath for it though.

My bold. Those two sections would be far more fashionable as they are not London centric.

And then hey presto the bit in between them (Midland Main Line) becomes fashionable as well. It is a sort of do the infills first and that then makes the main bit look more obviously needed. I am not being entirely serious/logical here.

But what might be possible is some kind of joined up thinking that says spending some money improving Birmingham to Derby (Midlands) and Sheffield to Leeds (South Yorkshire) can be more productive if done as part of building on Leicester - Derby/Nottingham - Sheffield.

So the rest of the Midland Main Line electrification benefits from being seen as several smaller projects interlinked ?.

 

[Zomboid]

All the money which is being invested in the new bi mode 810's could result in many years delay. If they are successful will it still be a priority during the next 30+ years to electrify the line north of Wigston through Leicester to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield?

This is both the benefit and drawback of bi mode trains.
In a sensible world they'd be used to allow electrification to proceed at a pace that doesn't need to cost a fortune, and over the next 10 years or so it'll reach Sheffield and on to the Wakefield line with progressively less diesel being burnt. But we'll see...

 

[brad465]

Hopefully the Spending Review on June the 11th will be good news for further electrification of the Midland Mainline.

There's a good chance tomorrow we will see some of what's going to be in the Spending Review, as several governments have used the Sunday interview rounds to start revealing its contents ahead of the address in the Commons. Whether any rail projects will be in the early reveals though remains to be seen.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is both the benefit and drawback of bi mode trains.
In a sensible world they'd be used to allow electrification to proceed at a pace that doesn't need to cost a fortune, and over the next 10 years or so it'll reach Sheffield and on to the Wakefield line with progressively less diesel being burnt. But we'll see...

I agree. It is a two edged sword. Complacency vs Flexibility to grow the benefits of electrification.

What would help is if these Bi-Mode units (810s) were needed for the progression of another electrification project else where sooner rather than later. Being a bit bespoke I can see the 810s working the MML to the bitter end rather than moving on to - say NE-SW.

 

[Brubulus]

Another factor is if there's the political will for an HS2-XC link that enables London-Sheffield to be served by HS2 trains, this could either be from Delta Junction to Kingsbury or from near Litchfield to the South Staffs line. That then means Birmingham-Derby electrification becomes more important though I think it's unlikely realistically even though it would enable faster trains to Derby and Sheffield alongside releasing some capacity on the southern MML.

 

[Hophead]

Given the amount of prep work that's been well documented on the forum, I'd be extremely surprised if Network Rail hadn't been tipped off that electrification of the MML either partially or completely was on the cards.

Though, given the current government's general ineptitude, I'd be equally unsurprised if there was no announcement, at least until a fuss got kicked up.

 

[Trainman40083]

My bold. The trouble with that is will it look like a section of route with one end pointing towards London. Unfashionable.

My bold. Those two sections would be far more fashionable as they are not London centric.

And then hey presto the bit in between them (Midland Main Line) becomes fashionable as well. It is a sort of do the infills first and that then makes the main bit look more obviously needed. I am not being entirely serious/logical here.

But what might be possible is some kind of joined up thinking that says spending some money improving Birmingham to Derby (Midlands) and Sheffield to Leeds (South Yorkshire) can be more productive if done as part of building on Leicester - Derby/Nottingham - Sheffield.

So the rest of the Midland Main Line electrification benefits from being seen as several smaller projects interlinked ?.

You can see Cross Country route being electrified as part of other projects...We have seen York to Church Fenton. Soon on to Leeds. Maybe the Yorkshire Mayors will cover on to Sheffield...Then one day MML will cover to Derby. Then just the gap to Birmingham and Edinburgh to Bromsgrove is covered (someone will probably then say the Birmingham system isn't passed for high speed use

 

[cle]

Another factor is if there's the political will for an HS2-XC link that enables London-Sheffield to be served by HS2 trains, this could either be from Delta Junction to Kingsbury or from near Litchfield to the South Staffs line. That then means Birmingham-Derby electrification becomes more important though I think it's unlikely realistically even though it would enable faster trains to Derby and Sheffield alongside releasing some capacity on the southern MML.

This is a good point although I would say it would be re-announced a few times and packaged as a HS2 East save. But yes, it’d be a big deal and could take over the Sheffield services too.

And enable way more semi-fasts or 4tph Nottingham (various patterns inc more Bedford/Wixams even) in future.

Re MML - ostensibly this now ends at Sheffield. Getting there (and Notts) would be a big accomplishment. And with new stock, and doing 125 on electric, lay locals would be very happy.

Trent junctions, Erewash, etc - not essential, nor is reaching Doncaster but would probably allow a few more changes.

 

[Zomboid]

someone will probably then say the Birmingham system isn't passed for high speed use

They didn't actually electrify the fast lines from Kings Norton to Barnt Green, so they'd be correct to do so.

 

[deltic08]

It would also allow the Birmingham-Nottingham service to go over to EMUs, which should help with accommodating the extra stops and hopefully speed these rather slow services up a bit. Under this scenario the main NE-SW service would be some sort of bi-mode to run beyond Birmingham, and I'd expect this fleet to cover the Nottingham-Cardiff also.

I too would like to see the natural OHLE progression of Derby-Birmingham and Bromsgrove-Bristol Parkway by the time Voyagers on XC need replacing in 10 years time assuming Filton bank is electrified by then. This would allow Scotland/Newcastle/Manchester-Bristol services to be all electric. These services could terminate at Bristol with separate Bristol-Devon/Cornwall diesel services supplemented by Cardiff-Devon/Cornwall services. I know this would mean a change for passengers beyond Bristol apart from all electric Manchester-Bristol trains.
Nottingham-Cardiffs could be replaced with BEMUs that would run on battery covering the gap between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction. Will the 170s last that long?

If you’re going to Sheffield, continuing to Moorthorpe as a minimum would be incredibly sensible. Doncaster, would be a lesser priority but also sensible.

The main issue with Sheffield is that it’s a big job with the station needing re-modelling at the same time.

I agree. It is a no brainer in infill electrification. Have you taken into account the hourly Adwick-Sheffield that would become electric as well as XC on the Doncaster route?

 

[The Ham]

Another factor is if there's the political will for an HS2-XC link that enables London-Sheffield to be served by HS2 trains, this could either be from Delta Junction to Kingsbury or from near Litchfield to the South Staffs line. That then means Birmingham-Derby electrification becomes more important though I think it's unlikely realistically even though it would enable faster trains to Derby and Sheffield alongside releasing some capacity on the southern MML.

If such a scheme were to be announced, the focus would be on delivering non London benefits.

By that I mean that the key things being announced would:
- electrification between Birmingham and Derby
- extra services into Birmingham

It would probably use the information from the report into linking HS2 to Leeds, as back in 2023 when the report was launched:

Government launches study into connecting HS2 services to Leeds | New Civil Engineer

The “HS2 to Leeds” study, as it has come to be known, was a £100M promise made in the Integrated Rail Plan (IRP), published by the Department for

www.newcivilengineer.com

The DfT expects the study to take two years and be completed in 2025.

It may look and sound a lot like HS2, but I'd expect it not to be called HS2.

With phrases like:
Following the increase in platform capacity available in Birmingham....
To improve journey times between Birmingham and...
To improve capacity to Derby...
To increase the frequency of services to...
To deliver electrification of the key [East West]* rail link of...
Giving the home of Great British Railways an electric rail network which can be used as a template to deliver...

*other options for wording are available, such as West Midlands to East Midlands, or basically anything which shows it's not London.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If such a scheme were to be announced, the focus would be on delivering non London benefits.

By that I mean that the key things being announced would:
- electrification between Birmingham and Derby
- extra services into Birmingham

It would probably use the information from the report into linking HS2 to Leeds, as back in 2023 when the report was launched:

Government launches study into connecting HS2 services to Leeds | New Civil Engineer

The “HS2 to Leeds” study, as it has come to be known, was a £100M promise made in the Integrated Rail Plan (IRP), published by the Department for

www.newcivilengineer.com

It may look and sound a lot like HS2, but I'd expect it not to be called HS2.

With phrases like:
Following the increase in platform capacity available in Birmingham....
To improve journey times between Birmingham and...
To improve capacity to Derby...
To increase the frequency of services to...
To deliver electrification of the key [East West]* rail link of...
Giving the home of Great British Railways an electric rail network which can be used as a template to deliver...

*other options for wording are available, such as West Midlands to East Midlands, or basically anything which shows it's not London.

Yep.

I particularly like the idea of the released capacity at Birmingham New Street because of London services using HS2 into Curzon Street.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yep.

I particularly like the idea of the released capacity at Birmingham New Street because of London services using HS2 into Curzon Street.

Just imagine. More local services serving Rugby to New Street, maybe a second hourly Cross Country from Reading. Maybe another local train towards Wolverhampton. However you look at it, New Street is often at full capacity. When they need to work on a platform they have to pull trains from the timetable.

 

[drb61]

You can see Cross Country route being electrified as part of other projects...We have seen York to Church Fenton. Soon on to Leeds. Maybe the Yorkshire Mayors will cover on to Sheffield...Then one day MML will cover to Derby. Then just the gap to Birmingham and Edinburgh to Bromsgrove is covered (someone will probably then say the Birmingham system isn't passed for high speed use

I don't think the fast lines between Kings Norton and Barnt Green are wired. The cross-city electrification only covered the slow lines IIRC.

 

[Brubulus]

If such a scheme were to be announced, the focus would be on delivering non London benefits.

By that I mean that the key things being announced would:
- electrification between Birmingham and Derby
- extra services into Birmingham

It would probably use the information from the report into linking HS2 to Leeds, as back in 2023 when the report was launched:

Government launches study into connecting HS2 services to Leeds | New Civil Engineer

The “HS2 to Leeds” study, as it has come to be known, was a £100M promise made in the Integrated Rail Plan (IRP), published by the Department for

www.newcivilengineer.com

It may look and sound a lot like HS2, but I'd expect it not to be called HS2.

With phrases like:
Following the increase in platform capacity available in Birmingham....
To improve journey times between Birmingham and...
To improve capacity to Derby...
To increase the frequency of services to...
To deliver electrification of the key [East West]* rail link of...
Giving the home of Great British Railways an electric rail network which can be used as a template to deliver...

*other options for wording are available, such as West Midlands to East Midlands, or basically anything which shows it's not London.

That study was before the cancellation of the eastern leg to East Midlands Parkway proposed in the IRP. I am simply proposing a short chord linking HS2 to the Derby-Birmingham line, which given the relatively limited cost and benefits for Derby and Sheffield could be announced as is. Derby-Birmingham electrification and upgrades could be announced separately as something that benefits cross country services.

 

[ac6000cw]

If MML is wired it'll be the only stretch of 125mph railway without electrification left. I don't think any other country other than USA would have let that even be possible.

Given that the 125mph services on the original 125mph route in the UK (the GWML) were entirely diesel operated for over 40 years, I think any possible embarrassment about it evaporated years ago...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==

The main issue with Sheffield is that it’s a big job with the station needing re-modelling at the same time.

It's ever thus - see Bristol currently, and in the past the original WCML electrification proceeded from north to south partly to allow time for Euston to be re-modeled and rebuilt (which took 4 years).

 

[Iskra]

It's ever thus - see Bristol currently, and in the past the original WCML electrification proceeded from north to south partly to allow time for Euston to be re-modeled and rebuilt (which took 4 years).

With bi-mode passenger stock increasingly common, it might make more sense to electrify the simpler avoiding line via Treeton to allow freight to run on electric before tackling Sheffield Station in the future.

 

[Peter Sarf]

With bi-mode passenger stock increasingly common, it might make more sense to electrify the simpler avoiding line via Treeton to allow freight to run on electric before tackling Sheffield Station in the future.

Of course. That could be argued to be taking lorries of the roads in the South Yorkshire area.....

 

[londonmidland]

It begs the question as to what will come first and in what order - electrification from Wigston North to Syston or remodelling of the lines and its junction, which will provide extra capacity and will reduce congestion and delays?

 

[Trainman40083]

It begs the question as to what will come first and in what order - electrification from Wigston North to Syston or remodelling of the lines and its junction, which will provide extra capacity and will reduce congestion and delays?

I do wonder if Leicester station area will be done after the section around Syston....Is there not an idea that grade separation will be needed at Wigston. Will OHLE be a problem on tunnel approach to Leicester (in terms of clearance)?

 

[Iskra]

I too would like to see the natural OHLE progression of Derby-Birmingham and Bromsgrove-Bristol Parkway by the time Voyagers on XC need replacing in 10 years time assuming Filton bank is electrified by then. This would allow Scotland/Newcastle/Manchester-Bristol services to be all electric. These services could terminate at Bristol with separate Bristol-Devon/Cornwall diesel services supplemented by Cardiff-Devon/Cornwall services. I know this would mean a change for passengers beyond Bristol apart from all electric Manchester-Bristol trains.
Nottingham-Cardiffs could be replaced with BEMUs that would run on battery covering the gap between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction. Will the 170s last that long?

I agree. It is a no brainer in infill electrification. Have you taken into account the hourly Adwick-Sheffield that would become electric as well as XC on the Doncaster route?

And the new NT Sheffield-Leeds fast service coming later this year as well.

 

[Yew]

I agree. It is a two edged sword. Complacency vs Flexibility to grow the benefits of electrification.

What would help is if these Bi-Mode units (810s) were needed for the progression of another electrification project else where sooner rather than later. Being a bit bespoke I can see the 810s working the MML to the bitter end rather than moving on to - say NE-SW

I could see a 23m bi-mode train being a good fit for CrossCountry at some point, though I don't know if there would be the right amount of units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I could see a 23m bi-mode train being a good fit for CrossCountry at some point, though I don't know if there would be the right amount of units.

I would think if only the 810s were the same sizes as the 800s then they would be more likely to work together on NE-SW. That would be when more of GW is finished (Oxford and maybe beyond, Bristol and to Swansea). But that is even more maybes !.

Perhaps certain parts of Cross Country would switch to Bi-Mode sooner. Suppose those using the WCML to Manchester from the South / SW.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The pressures on spending are day to day not capital/investment which is what MML Electrification will be classed as. Also the period being covered is from 26/27 to 29/30 so they can back end load it and provide modest funding for enabling works for next couple of years potentially. Conversely though with the team in place (hopefully) this can be teed up quickly and give them something to show quickly unlike many of the city schemes which will take years to come to fruition.

Also alongside the spending review the government will publish a 10yr infrastructure strategy probably later in the week.

 

[Trainman40083]

I would think if only the 810s were the same sizes as the 800s then they would be more likely to work together on NE-SW. That would be when more of GW is finished (Oxford and maybe beyond, Bristol and to Swansea). But that is even more maybes !.

Perhaps certain parts of Cross Country would switch to Bi-Mode sooner. Suppose those using the WCML to Manchester from the South / SW.

I guess the only way the 810s would have been the same length as a 800, was if St Pancras had long enough platforms for a 2 x 5 car set. As it is, it isn't, so we end up with non standard sets, and delays

 

[Aspen90]

I don’t know how much more space would be needed but if you look at the floor behind the buffers at STP it’s all modular and the tracks can actually be extended quite a bit closer to the gate line, by lifting block sections of the floor out.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don’t know how much more space would be needed but if you look at the floor behind the buffers at STP it’s all modular and the tracks can actually be extended quite a bit closer to the gate line, by lifting block sections of the floor out.

The gate line could probably be moved as well pushing the queues, lifts and escalators further back into the original trainshed. I cannot visualise how much room there currently is before the edge of the original trainshed is in the way.