Livery under Great British Railways

[Class15]

I’d go for the following liveries:

Intercity swallow, for, well, intercity.

Southern livery (the current one) for SWR, SouthEastern and Southern.

GWR Green for all GWR services not taken by Intercity.

GreaterAnglia can stay the same and I would merge C2C into it.

Thameslink - I’m not sure, maybe keep it and great northern the same?

Non-intercity EMR services can stay purple

West Midlands and LNWR can probably merge with EMR? (‘Midland Railway’)?

Northern and TransPennine Express should probably merge and use the TPE livery (although that might be because I don’t really like the northern livery)

These are just ideas I came up with in 5 minutes so I’m sure many will disagree.

 

[Zomboid]

I'm modifying what I said before -
- Intercity services based on LNER, with the red stripe changing colour depending on the route (including XC and TPE).
- Regions have a defined colour palette and some freedom to apply it in a way that suits the rolling stock.
- Services local to a city region (former PTEs) can be branded as such.

 

[generalnerd]

My opinion is

- Intercity (all intercity routes, uses a sleek looking livery, potential colour variations depending on the corridor (crosscountry, west coast, east coast, high speed, etc))

- Yorkshire & Lancashire railways (either two separate brands or a joint service covering all ‘lower’ northern services)

- Northstar (the upper sections of the former northern routes)

- Transpennine (express services in the north not operated by mainline services/services that operate as semifast in the north)

- London railways/network (suburban London commuter lines + sections of services that stretch further, contains Thameslink, southern on commuter routes and great northern)

- Southeastern Lines (regional services operated in the southeast of the country (GA, further SWR services etc))

- Great Western (all services operated on the great western mainline)

- Central Railways (EMR non intercity)

- West Coast Rail (local services on the WCML)

And here are the local, devolved services around cities

- Tyne and Wear Rail (national rail in the nexus regions)

- Bee Network Rail (take a wild guess)

- west midlands rail (keep the same livery)

- Leeds-Bradford trains (Leeds/bradford commuter services)

The latter is unlikely but I thought I’d have go naming some. Bit unoriginal some but what can you do

 

[WibbleWobble]

I would expect a small number of liveries as it would keep costs right down and avoid the need to repaint large numbers if trains when fleets are moved around. You would only need to update appropriate vinyls instead.

- Northstar (the upper sections of the former northern routes)

I think the bus operated might object to that one!

 

[43096]

Thinking of old stagecoach liveries and Pepsi cans.

Ah yes, Pepsi can - US nickname for the rather excellent livery that Amtrak's Dash 8-32BWH locos carried from new: https://www.flickr.com/photos/151089709@N08/33130744348

A variant of that would be nice!

 

[generalnerd]

I think the bus operated might object to that one!

Awh rats.

I thought I was on to a good one there …

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2025 ==

A video from Geoff Marshall in which Heidi Alexander states that they will look at branding reflecting the region.

what we need to do is come up with a branding that also can speak to the regional identities as well.

 

[Russel]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the current Southeastern livery used but with the door colour changed to red or white.

Wouldn't be a bad shout to be fair, certainly the safe option, if a little dull.

Easy and simple to apply and maintain and hides dirt well, I'd probably add the black window band that the Javelin fleet have to break up the blue though.

 

[Mrwerdna1]

A video from Geoff Marshall in which Heidi Alexander states that they will look at branding reflecting the region.

Interesting, seems to be in line with the government's wider England devolution agenda.

I take from her answer that they might update the existing regional franchise identities (i.e. SWR, GWR etc.), though it is unclear to which extent (i.e. minor tweaks or complete rebranding) and also unclear whether they would change the boundaries for those regions or create new/different ones. In any case, a regional livery at baseline and then a GBR "badge" (her words) on top of that livery, a bit like the vinyl applied to that class 701. So neither a single/unified livery, nor (it would appear) one that directly incorporates the union flag and its colours (not counting the GBR logo / badge). Not too surprised about that, to be frank.

This would be in line with what Green Signals report the government as saying in their newest video:

Will all the trains look the same? No. The government have said that each region will have a clear identity, such as South Western, the first company to be renationalised, South Eastern, Northern and so on. But they will operate under an umbrella brand, called Great British Railways.

Source:

(26.05.2025)

However, Heidi Alexander also says "I don't have a full branding plan that is signed off for you" which is politician speak for "it's all still up in the air, really".

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Much as I am an advocate of reclaiming the flag from right-leaning nationalists, at the moment we haven't managed this yet, and given the current state of politics with Labour trying to out-Reform Reform it shouldn't be surprising that people will associate GBR's use of a Union Jack with similar sentiment. For what it's worth I am a fan of using it as a basis for the livery as long as it's subtle and fits the train design.

Problem with that attitude is that it means you'll never "reclaim" it, because you're still allowing those groups to claim ownership of it and control its use. To reclaim the flag you have to stand up to the extremists and send the message that it's "our" flag not theirs. You can't just wait for them to give it up willingly.

Must admit I'm surprised that Labour have stuck with the Conservatives' ethos, including the "Great British Railways" name... But then there are only three certainties in life: death, taxes, and the Labour Party being a disappointment!

 

[Rick1984]

If going for local regional branding it should be a common base for all regions with additional elements reflecting each region

 

[Transilien]

If going for local regional branding it should be a common base for all regions with additional elements reflecting each region

We could bring back Regional Railways for all areas that aren’t in cities or surrounding them.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Since ScotRail and TfW are remaining, it would make sense to split the English network into similarly sized regions (bigger than the current franchises) - with the exception of long distance Intercity routes. It would seem odd to introduce a Union Jack based livery for England but not Scotland and Wales.

Could work something like the following:

South West - SWR and GWR
South East - all GTR brands, Southeastern, C2C and Greater Anglia
Midlands - WMR/LNR, EMR, Chiltern and some shorter-distance XC routes
Northern - Northern and TPE

 

[Mrwerdna1]

Agreed

Since ScotRail and TfW are remaining, it would make sense to split the English network into similarly sized regions (bigger than the current franchises) - with the exception of long distance Intercity routes. It would seem odd to introduce a Union Jack based livery for England but not Scotland and Wales.

Could work something like the following:

South West - SWR and GWR
South East - all GTR brands, Southeastern, C2C and Greater Anglia
Midlands - WMR/LNR, EMR, Chiltern and some shorter-distance XC routes
Northern - Northern and TPE

Very much agreed, with the only minor exceptions that I feel like Chiltern and SWR should be added to South East (broadly along the lines of the former NSE network). It is of course hard to draw a line, but the TOCs you name + SWR & Chiltern, though they do operate some longer distance services too, all nonetheless serve broad swathes of Greater London and the urban sprawl beyond. Take Woking as a good example. Outside Greater London, technically, but a huge part of its appeal are undoubtedly quick and frequent connections to London.

Yes, one could make a similar argument perhaps for the stretch of the GWR mainline between Paddington and Reading, but in fairness the Elizabeth Line / tfl already operates stopping services along there and the vast majority of trains that otherwise serve that trunk are intercity services that travel far far west, many even into Wales.

So on balance I'd say:

GBR South West or Great Western - GWR
GBR South East - SWR, GTR, Southeastern, Chiltern, C2C and Greater Anglia
GBR Midlands - WMR/LNWR, EMR
GBR Northern - Northern and TPE

Realistically, they'd have to bring back some form of intercity livery. If not, I think they'd have to keep a lot of the current regional railway names (LNER, GWR etc.). From Heidi Alexander's statement, it does actually sound more like the latter is what they will end up doing, but who knows. I mean, would be weird seeing an east-coast mainline intercity or XC train operated by "GBR Midlands", no?

 

[saismee]

GBR South West or Great Western - GWR
GBR South East - SWR, GTR, Southeastern, Chiltern, C2C and Greater Anglia
GBR Midlands - WMR/LNWR, EMR
GBR Northern - Northern and TPE

Realistically, they'd have to bring back some form of intercity livery. If not, I think they'd have to keep a lot of the current regional railway names (LNER, GWR etc.).

I think bundling GA and GTR's Norfolk and Cambridgeshire into the "South East" doesn't really fit, though these are four very large regions that you've specified. GA's commuter services would be sensible in SE, but the regional ones don't really fit. The existing EMR Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street service would also mix strangley, so it might warrant its own eastern region.

I think it could be a sensible idea to name the regions (or intercity services) after their lines such as:
GBR Great Western
GBR West Coast
GBR East Coast
GBR Great Eastern
etc. Though this clashes with the GBR Midlands idea.

 

[Spire Sam]

Agreed

Very much agreed, with the only minor exceptions that I feel like Chiltern and SWR should be added to South East (broadly along the lines of the former NSE network). It is of course hard to draw a line, but the TOCs you name + SWR & Chiltern, though they do operate some longer distance services too, all nonetheless serve broad swathes of Greater London and the urban sprawl beyond. Take Woking as a good example. Outside Greater London, technically, but a huge part of its appeal are undoubtedly quick and frequent connections to London.

Yes, one could make a similar argument perhaps for the stretch of the GWR mainline between Paddington and Reading, but in fairness the Elizabeth Line / tfl already operates stopping services along there and the vast majority of trains that otherwise serve that trunk are intercity services that travel far far west, many even into Wales.

So on balance I'd say:

GBR South West or Great Western - GWR
GBR South East - SWR, GTR, Southeastern, Chiltern, C2C and Greater Anglia
GBR Midlands - WMR/LNWR, EMR
GBR Northern - Northern and TPE

Realistically, they'd have to bring back some form of intercity livery. If not, I think they'd have to keep a lot of the current regional railway names (LNER, GWR etc.). From Heidi Alexander's statement, it does actually sound more like the latter is what they will end up doing, but who knows. I mean, would be weird seeing an east-coast mainline intercity or XC train operated by "GBR Midlands", no?

I seem to remember a while ago something about them possibly using the structure of the Network Rail regions although I can't remember exactly where I saw it. I do think it makes more sense to have some form of an intercity brand/livery though alongside the various regions.

 

[vuzzeho]

I don't remember if I've said this before, but I would use the regions as subtitles with sectors.
So, there would be Northern, South West, South East, West Coast, Great Western, Eastern, CrossCountry (Eastern would include GA, LNER, C2C, GN, and EMR. Arguments could be made for a Midland region name - I'm just spitballing here with these regions.)
Then, branding would be [Service]: [Region]. So, for example, InterCity: Eastern. Network: South West. Regional: Northern

Note: I'm not certain Regional should be a brand name that sticks around. However, I can't think of a better name right now.

 

[renegademaster]

Reserrecting "Regional" will just intensify the "Home Counties vs everyone else" culture war

 

[vuzzeho]

Reserrecting "Regional" will just intensify the "Home Counties vs everyone else" culture war

Exactly. But what else could it be called? Any ideas?

 

[renegademaster]

Exactly. But what else could it be called? Any ideas?

Whatever you call it, it's still going to have the same London Vs Not-London effect, which is why if there has to be visible sub-brands (doesn't have to be, everything could just be GBR like everything in Switzerland is just SBB, everything painted the same ) it should be just based on existing franchise areas

 

[Zomboid]

I think Intercity has some branding value, but after that I don't think it really matters. Divide it up by service type, so you'd have Intercity (including XC and the relevant services from TPE), Regional Express (which can run to/from London, for example the Weymouth line, Kings Lynn, Liverpool - Norwich...), Regional and Local services.

 

[Transilien]

Reserrecting "Regional" will just intensify the "Home Counties vs everyone else" culture war

In my opinion, "Regional" only makes sense for non-commuter services/longer distance services. So London-Brighton could be classified as ''Regional Express" as a service that connects two major destinations which are around 60 miles apart. However we shouldn't go back to the time where Regional meant all non-intercity services outside the southeast.

 

[saismee]

I think Intercity has some branding value, but after that I don't think it really matters. Divide it up by service type, so you'd have Intercity (including XC and the relevant services from TPE), Regional Express (which can run to/from London, for example the Weymouth line, Kings Lynn, Liverpool - Norwich...), Regional and Local services.

I wouldn't consider Liverpool to Norwich a "Regional Express" line when it's so slow and has so many stops. It'd be like calling Aberdeen to Penzance "Regional Express" when its more just a few regional routes grouped into one continuous service. How many people actually take the EMR service all the way from Liverpool to Norwich?

I also think regional, commuter, and intercity would be a good differentiation still. There can still be commuter services large cities other than London, but London has the most so it would be where most of these services reside. Each large city would have its intercity routes (to-from other large cities and London), then its high-frequency commuter services, then its longer-distance regional services to smaller towns/cities.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Whatever you call it, it's still going to have the same London Vs Not-London effect, which is why if there has to be visible sub-brands (doesn't have to be, everything could just be GBR like everything in Switzerland is just SBB, everything painted the same ) it should be just based on existing franchise areas

I think the next thing would be to divvy up suburban services in all English cities, then the longer distance non-Intercity services and see what’s left.

 

[Mike Machin]

Other than GBR being the holding organisation and introducing consistency in typography and bringing back the double arrow on the rolling stock, I would keep everything just as it is for the time being.

Passengers are used to their own regional services and branding differentiation is useful where multiple operators serve the same station. Although I live quite some distance from any railway and use the car for most of my journeys, I do sometimes travel with a friend from her local station, Havant.

On several occasions I have heard people say ‘is this the Brighton train, to which someone has replied no, you need a green one for Brighton.’ People are obviously aware that South Western and Southern are distinct services, with their own branding.

At this stage, with finances being tight, the right wing media would have a field day with a major rebrand. We’d be seeing headlines like ‘Labour squanders millions to provide the same service in a different colour’ or ‘New shades of mediocrity.’

Keeping existing employment contracts with individual train operators also helps to keep the lid on industrial action and disputes, a single contract of employment with just one GBR will lead to 1970s-style national rail strikes.

The private sector is will continue to be hugely involved in the railways going forward, rolling stock leasing and financing, private manufacturing of assets, contracting, private freight operators, charter services, open access operators, privatised workshop facilities etc., so we are never going to see a unified ‘one size fits all’ paint job again.

Use public money wisely to improve services, rather than push up the share value of paint manufacturers and viny graphics companies.

 

[Brubulus]

Other than GBR being the holding organisation and introducing consistency in typography and bringing back the double arrow on the rolling stock, I would keep everything just as it is for the time being.

Passengers are used to their own regional services and branding differentiation is useful where multiple operators serve the same station. Although I live quite some distance from any railway and use the car for most of my journeys, I do sometimes travel with a friend from her local station, Havant.

On several occasions I have heard people say ‘is this the Brighton train, to which someone has replied no, you need a green one for Brighton.’ People are obviously aware that South Western and Southern are distinct services, with their own branding.

At this stage, with finances being tight, the right wing media would have a field day with a major rebrand. We’d be seeing headlines like ‘Labour squanders millions to provide the same service in a different colour’ or ‘New shades of mediocrity.’

Keeping existing employment contracts with individual train operators also helps to keep the lid on industrial action and disputes, a single contract of employment with just one GBR will lead to 1970s-style national rail strikes.

The private sector is will continue to be hugely involved in the railways going forward, rolling stock leasing and financing, private manufacturing of assets, contracting, private freight operators, charter services, open access operators, privatised workshop facilities etc., so we are never going to see a unified ‘one size fits all’ paint job again.

Use public money wisely to improve services, rather than push up the share value of paint manufacturers and viny graphics companies.

National integration is a good thing that will massively increase flexibility across the network and will be one of the best things about GBR, keeping fragmentation (for new starters) is a poor use of resources.

I agree that repainting should not be the primary priority but trains when trains are repainted, they should be repainted into a national colour scheme, with potentially local decals in some areas or on specific trains.

 

[m79900]

Would the Javelins fall under Intercity or the London commuter services?

 

[Transilien]

Would the Javelins fall under Intercity or the London commuter services?

I would say that they would be Regional Express in my opinion. This is because they serve places that are around 60 miles from London, far away from the centre.

 

[Tobberz]

I would say that they would be Regional Express in my opinion. This is because they serve places that are around 60 miles from London, far away from the centre.

Would it not be rational to group HS1 and HS2 domestic services under the same brand? Or are they different enough to be differentiated?

 

[Sorcerer]

I also think regional, commuter, and intercity would be a good differentiation still. There can still be commuter services large cities other than London, but London has the most so it would be where most of these services reside. Each large city would have its intercity routes (to-from other large cities and London), then its high-frequency commuter services, then its longer-distance regional services to smaller towns/cities.

I think there needs to be more differentiations in services simply because of the sheer variety. As an example, LNWR London-Birmingham and London-Crewe services are hardly regional because of the distances, but also not quite fitting of intercity because of the rolling stock, on-board facilities and service patterns, so an in-between designation would be helpful (in Switzerland they would most likely be classed as InterRegio services). In fact just the other day I was discussing with a friend what sector these services would've fallen under with British Rail had it not been privatised.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Would the Javelins fall under Intercity or the London commuter services?

They would just be a Network SouthEast sub sector.

Incidentally, it seems I have written out NSE so much, after writing “Network” “SouthEast” now appears in my phone’s predictive text…