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Do you mean the indication that comes on all the time when you’re standing by the door expecting it to open at the station, so you go and find another door, only to see the door you were standing next to open?
My wife and I encountered this for the first time* when attempting to alight from the rear coach on a 3+3 195 at Manchester Oxford Road - the last thing you want to see when returning from the airport with attendant baggage. Fortunately the door started opening before we had started making a move to the next coach, but it was a somewhat alarming experience for a second or two.
* - I can't recall seeing it on 3 or 2+2 195s on the Calder Valley, but I might have forgotten the odd instance.
According to Wikipedia (I know...) a 6-car 331 would be about 3m longer than a 6-car 323. And according to the sectional appendix, the Manchester bound platform at Mauldeth Rd is the shortest on that branch by a good few metres, so it is possible (I can't say for certain) that the powers that be have deemed the margin of error to be a little too close for comfort.
Defined by Ops Standards department - the common two reasons are - there has to be some leeway to allow for variances in stopping position, this can typically be in the realms of 4 meters; if the rear door would be too close to the ramp/ end of platform then it will be defined as not accommodated, even if normally it ends up being on the platform. Another reason in a few places is the width of platform, one off the top of my head is Deansgate down - the 12th door is accommodated on the platform, however the back wall is considered too close to the edge of the platform, so the width is considered too narrow for safe passenger use.
Defined by Ops Standards department - the common two reasons are - there has to be some leeway to allow for variances in stopping position, this can typically be in the realms of 4 meters; if the rear door would be too close to the ramp/ end of platform then it will be defined as not accommodated, even if normally it ends up being on the platform. Another reason in a few places is the width of platform, one off the top of my head is Deansgate down - the 12th door is accommodated on the platform, however the back wall is considered too close to the edge of the platform, so the width is considered too narrow for safe passenger use.
Forgive me but you're answering a different question to the one asked there. The question wasn't why 331s can't open that door but why 323s do anyway. The purpose of my response wasn't to suggest there's no basis at all for the changing operational standards, it was that the standards are based on arbitrary factors, including convenience, as much as safety.
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Again here you are responding to a different point to the one that's been made. The conductor knows how long the train is relative to the platform. They do not know which stations open which doors on the SDO database because that is frequently changed without their knowledge. That's precisely why the instruction to override or not is constantly changing.
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Do you mean the indication that comes on all the time when you’re standing by the door expecting it to open at the station, so you go and find another door, only to see the door you were standing next to open?
In my experience the vast majority of people don't go to a different door. They just ignore the "door not in use" sign, because they know it lights up every day and doesn't mean the door isn't in use.
If the door is actually not in use the door open button lights up in red as well. I doubt anyone knows that who doesn't work on the train or read the forum though.
In my experience the vast majority of people don't go to a different door. They just ignore the "door not in use" sign, because they know it lights up every day and doesn't mean the door isn't in use.
If the door is actually not in use the door open button lights up in red as well. I doubt anyone knows that who doesn't work on the train or read the forum though.
My train from Barrow to Preston at 0748 today was a 6 instead of a 3 due to a crew displacement or unit fault delay on the inbound from Preston and had to draw forward at Silverdale because the PIS had told all the pax to go to the back 3 carriages, but the stop board had it overhanging at the back. Dunno if this is a software error or what. It doesn't seem to.l be such a big deal on this line compared to at MCO
It was always frowned upon if a driver declares themselves unfit to at least move the train to a suitable location to clear the line even if it was at a very reduced speed.
It was always frowned upon if a driver declares themselves unfit to at least move the train to a suitable location to clear the line even if it was at a very reduced speed.
It may have been that control had instructed them not to move the train. There are various reasons why this could be the case - prior incidents etc. I’m not speculating that that’s what happened here, but it’s possible.
It may have been that control had instructed them not to move the train. There are various reasons why this could be the case - prior incidents etc. I’m not speculating that that’s what happened here, but it’s possible.
I could be wrong but I think it just said traincrew - could have been the guard didn’t feel they could continue having opened the doors off the platform. (Even though it would presumably only involve locking up again and reopening after the driver had drawn the train fully into the platform.)
I could be wrong but I think it just said traincrew - could have been the guard didn’t feel they could continue having opened the doors off the platform. (Even though it would presumably only involve locking up again and reopening after the driver had drawn the train fully into the platform.)
Indeed, if the guard was unfit/new in the role/had previous incidents etc it may well be that they considered themself or were deemed by control to be unfit to undertake a further safety critical task of closing the doors, instructing the driver to move the train and then releasing the doors again. It sounds trivial, but a safety critical task is a safety critical task regardless.
Considering what happened how did Northern go about eventually moving the train? Was a spare Conductor/Driver or both found from somewhere?
Out of interest and maybe going a bit off topic but supposing say something similar happened to a EMR service and one of their drivers felt unfit to carry on and the service was in Manchester or Liverpool areas how do they go about getting replacement staff to move the train?
Considering what happened how did Northern go about eventually moving the train? Was a spare Conductor/Driver or both found from somewhere?
Out of interest and maybe going a bit off topic but supposing say something similar happened to a EMR service and one of their drivers felt unfit to carry on and the service was in Manchester or Liverpool areas how do they go about getting replacement staff to move the train?
They usually use one of their other trains in the area to rescue it if they're really stuck. Failing that if it's somewhere it can be left then it usually will be and a driver will be sent up on another service to collect it.
IMO the driver shouldn't be turning to focus on making an input on a display screen that is 90 degrees from their windscreen, when entering a platform number at a major station, and likely travelling towards buffers or a red signal. Their focus should solely be on driving the train. The screens are not particularly responsive either so can be extremely frustrating to use, an added distraction.
It may have been that control had instructed them not to move the train. There are various reasons why this could be the case - prior incidents etc. I’m not speculating that that’s what happened here, but it’s possible.
Lead to believe that given how late the service had become it missed its path to the airport. There was no other location that the train could be held/recessed until its next booked working; so started back from MCO. From memory the turn round is quite quick for an Airport service, 15/20 minutes, anyways by the time this train was ready to depart it was over this dwell time at MIA. IIRC platforming was like a pack of cards down there and nothing has changed since.
In my experience the vast majority of people don't go to a different door. They just ignore the "door not in use" sign, because they know it lights up every day and doesn't mean the door isn't in use.
I'd also throw in the Guards door opening procedure for Northern has become more safety focused and longer as a result.
Typically what I have seen Guard opens local door, often in the saloon, to check the train is platformed. However this is a cue for passengers at this door to alight/board as they seem fit, oblivious to the needs of their fellow passengers waiting patiently to do the same. Guard eventually gets back on and unlocks rest of train... which may add to this customer perception the doors will eventually open/be released and they do/don't is then based on being out of use/not been platformed and then having to move/not move accordingly.
Typically what I have seen Guard opens local door, often in the saloon, to check the train is platformed. However this is a cue for passengers at this door to alight/board as they seem fit, oblivious to the needs of their fellow passengers waiting patiently to do the same. Guard eventually gets back on and unlocks rest of train... which may add to this customer perception the doors will eventually open/be released and they do/don't is then based on being out of use/not been platformed and then having to move/not move accordingly.
Unfortunately this requirement is part of the process on all Northern trains and was before the CAF rolling stock. They're stuck in the past with it, they should just leave it up to the conductor to decide how best to assure themselves that the train is in the platform, as pretty much all operators do apart from Northern.
From recent experience where I am, I’m inclined to think it may be better not to continue at all after something has happened, as there is then a heightened risk of another more serious incident occurring. Particularly if the driver is new to the grade, or someone with a “chequered history”.
I could be wrong but I think it just said traincrew - could have been the guard didn’t feel they could continue having opened the doors off the platform. (Even though it would presumably only involve locking up again and reopening after the driver had drawn the train fully into the platform.)
Also a good point. Albeit you might expect that the driver and guard could have continued ECS. As part of the process of a stop short/release, the guard would need to shut the doors immediately and go back and check nobody had fallen out etc.
Lead to believe that given how late the service had become it missed its path to the airport. There was no other location that the train could be held/recessed until its next booked working; so started back from MCO. From memory the turn round is quite quick for an Airport service, 15/20 minutes, anyways by the time this train was ready to depart it was over this dwell time at MIA. IIRC platforming was like a pack of cards down there and nothing has changed since.
My train from Barrow to Preston at 0748 today was a 6 instead of a 3 due to a crew displacement or unit fault delay on the inbound from Preston and had to draw forward at Silverdale because the PIS had told all the pax to go to the back 3 carriages, but the stop board had it overhanging at the back. Dunno if this is a software error or what. It doesn't seem to.l be such a big deal on this line compared to at MCO
They're about a metre longer yes. But there's about 5 metres of clearance on a 331 between the driver's door (not that anyone can ever use that door in practice, however, apparently that's what it's measured from) and the gate at the back of the platform, assuming that the front cab is level with the end of the platform. Prior to the recent override instructions changing, that door did open at Mauldeth Road, although it was pretty rare for six car 331s to call there.
From recent experience where I am, I’m inclined to think it may be better not to continue at all after something has happened, as there is then a heightened risk of another more serious incident occurring. Particularly if the driver is new to the grade, or someone with a “chequered history”.
Much as I agree if it means moving the train at line speed to a point 50 miles away I can’t get my head around being in such a fractious state that you can’t even go a short distance to clear the line. I’ve offered to continue to the next station after a fatality if it helps.
According to Wikipedia (I know...) a 6-car 331 would be about 3m longer than a 6-car 323. And according to the sectional appendix, the Manchester bound platform at Mauldeth Rd is the shortest on that branch by a good few metres, so it is possible (I can't say for certain) that the powers that be have deemed the margin of error to be a little too close for comfort.
There are quite a few platforms across the EMR network where a 170 fits all passenger doors in (only just) but the cab door is off the platform. As there is a risk to the member of staff should they forget that it's 3 cars but not the cab door, the safest method is to make it 2 cars to avoid injury.
Platform 3 at Oxford Road, if I'm not mistaken, so an altogether awkward platform with a mid-platform signal that can often be kept at danger and lead to a train (necessarily and legitimately) stopping short of where it needs to be. Been there, done that, thankfully no door release though! Presumably quite a messy situation though with all sorts of factors to consider, including potentially train defects (ASDO?).
So, was it left straddling the pointwork at the Western end of the station, effectively blocking access to/from or via platforms 3, 4 and 5 at Manchester Oxford Road?
IMO the driver shouldn't be turning to focus on making an input on a display screen that is 90 degrees from their windscreen, when entering a platform number at a major station, and likely travelling towards buffers or a red signal. Their focus should solely be on driving the train. The screens are not particularly responsive either so can be extremely frustrating to use, an added distraction.
My train from Barrow to Preston at 0748 today was a 6 instead of a 3 due to a crew displacement or unit fault delay on the inbound from Preston and had to draw forward at Silverdale because the PIS had told all the pax to go to the back 3 carriages, but the stop board had it overhanging at the back. Dunno if this is a software error or what. It doesn't seem to.l be such a big deal on this line compared to at MCO
