Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Bald Rick]

Trouble is what do DfT think it costs !.

I’m reasonably confident that the number of people in DfT outside their fleet team who have even heard about TASS, let alone know what it is or does, is somewhere between zero and two.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about what TASS is. It is a train borne system, and nothing to do with the signalling. It uses the track balises for location only. Network Rail’s maintenance costs for it are negligible.

I agree with you about the trainborne bit, but Network Rail are responsible for installing and maintain the balises, which talk to the trains. I have no idea of costs but I imagine it gets rather expensive for Network Rail to take possession of the route, to allow engineers to go out on site and fiddle with the kit.

From what I understand the basic balises do not need to be "wired in" but obviously need installing by engineers and fettling during possessions.

 

[Bald Rick]

From what I understand the basic balises do not need to be "wired in" but obviously need installing by engineers and fettling during possessions.

Yes they needed installing by engineers - 20+ years ago. Most of them havent been touched or even looked at since. They are completely passive.

They only need touching if the sleepers themselves are being replaced. As much of the WCML fast lines was renewed betweem 2002-2009, there’s been precious little of that since. Even where it is required, it is part of the renewals S&T team‘s job as part of the (rather more involved) disconnections of track circuits, bonds, axle counters, etc. etc. The additional cost is essentially nil.

(I wrote as someone involved in the TASS project many, many years ago).

 

[tfw756rider]

WON

AT

PON

OHNS

What do these stand for?

 

[hexagon789]

What do these stand for?

WON - Weekly Operating Notice
PON - Periodic Operating Notice
AT - I assume in the above context it's standing for "Autotransformer"
OHNS - Overhead Neutral Section

 

[tfw756rider]

WON - Weekly Operating Notice
PON - Periodic Operating Notice
AT - I assume in the above context it's standing for "Autotransformer"
OHNS - Overhead Neutral Section

Thanks a lot

 

[DJH1971]

Attached below is a quick phone grab of 807010 outside tonight at Merchant Park.
All down this side of unit (unsure of other side) at end of each coach is no special livery just plain grey.

Any more news on the testing?

 

[800001]

Any more news on the testing?

Unit is back inside the test shed

 

[Pendomonium]

I agree with you about the trainborne bit, but Network Rail are responsible for installing and maintain the balises, which talk to the trains. I have no idea of costs but I imagine it gets rather expensive for Network Rail to take possession of the route, to allow engineers to go out on site and fiddle with the kit.

From what I understand the basic balises do not need to be "wired in" but obviously need installing by engineers and fettling during possessions.

The balise is in simple terms a bar code sat in the 4ft read by the equipment on board the 390. To keep this on thread topic... the 80x fleet have no use for balises. The additional costs of maintaining a tilting train operation come from keeping infrastructure tolerances & fleet maintenance. Just to throw another question mark.... we don't yet know how the 80x fleet is going to fair, & how the infrastructure is going to cope, with potential sustained MU speed operations in real world conditions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

Running a pendo at MU or PS would make little difference.
They are rated as a track friendly unit and there would be no change to track categories so inspection would be the same and likely maintenance requirements would be too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==


There is still an ATP balise in the down cess by Leighton Buzzard OHNS.
It was in track until the track was renewed about 13 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==


The signs between Crewe and Weaver and due to be uncovered ready for possession hand back Sunday…

Only a few in that section.

Not sure why this weekend has been identified given issues with DAS and driver briefs / training.

On the Manchester route & Liverpool routes (now that the timetable has been 80xfied) there is not that much difference as the train can be driven to the speed boards rather than TASS. The time losses set in during the long charges along the Trent valley & beyond. I will check what this week ends WON has to say about the MU speed boards. I guess having spent Millions on these boards they need to see daylight at some point, even if the speeds cant be used (at least by Avanti 80x)

 

[Tilting007]

The balise is in simple terms a bar code sat in the 4ft read by the equipment on board the 390. To keep this on thread topic... the 80x fleet have no use for balises. The additional costs of maintaining a tilting train operation come from keeping infrastructure tolerances & fleet maintenance. Just to throw another question mark.... we don't yet know how the 80x fleet is going to fair, & how the infrastructure is going to cope, with potential sustained MU speed operations in real world conditions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==


On the Manchester route & Liverpool routes (now that the timetable has been 80xfied) there is not that much difference as the train can be driven to the speed boards rather than TASS. The time losses set in during the long charges along the Trent valley & beyond. I will check what this week ends WON has to say about the MU speed boards. I guess having spent Millions on these boards they need to see daylight at some point, even if the speeds cant be used (at least by Avanti 80x)

Its only the LNW N WON that says about the MU in section D!

The MU speeds have a lot more changes so I would imagine the drivers will find something that suits them.

A Pendo will always do better at EPS than an 80X but when the MU is up and running the Pendo can run to them when non-tilt, so that will be a good comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

Unit is back inside the test shed

Looks to be running to Wembley via Edinburgh on Tuesday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

805 running on 1F26 to Liverpool today.

 

[Railperf]

I believe the 807s are about seven minutes slower than the 390s as far as timings go, so even here where they are arguably the least competitive they still manage to have a respectably similar journey time.


These two services are already two of the three regular daytime workings of the 805/807s with the third being the current Liverpool trains that are only about seven minutes slower than the 390. They might not have the marathon legs but they were never designed to. Their purpose was simply to replace the 221s on the Chester/North Wales route as well as the 390s on the Birmingham semi-fast which it is better suited for, and to run alongside the 390s on half-hourly Liverpool services.


I don't see TASS being turned off while 390s remain the bulk of the WCML InterCity traffic, but it definitely won't be renewed or updated once HS2 opens and tilting trains are no longer required. Any future use of the Pendolino will most likely be without tilting function if they have any further use at all; by the mid-2030s when HS2 begins operation they'll be reaching retirement.

TASS/ Tilt will remain as long as the increased revenue from the faster services can cover the cost of maintaining it and the 390 fleet. The problem is that the UK specifies TASS as a requirement for tilt where continental loading gauge doesn't require it - at least in Italy/France.
Getting back to MU limits, let's see what happens when the boards are uncovered. No point planning for driver training if no-one knows when the limits will be introduced. And how much training do you really need to know that Between Weaver and Crewe the limit is largely the same as EPS. LNR won't be affected.
The Crewe to Stafford section is a little more tricky to learn as there are only 3 to 4 miles of 125 followed by similar distance of 120, a short section of 2 miles back to 110 PS and then around 4 to 5 miles of 115. Then the remaining 6.5 miles at 110/105 PS. Pendolino is 125 all the way except a slightly slower 115 at Norton Bridge.

 

[AndrewE]

TASS/ Tilt will remain as long as the increased revenue from the faster services can cover the cost of maintaining it and the 390 fleet. The problem is that the UK specifies TASS as a requirement for tilt where continental loading gauge doesn't require it - at least in Italy/France.
Getting back to MU limits, let's see what happens when the boards are uncovered. No point planning for driver training if no-one knows when the limits will be introduced. And how much training do you really need to know that Between Weaver and Crewe the limit is largely the same as EPS. LNR won't be affected.
The Crewe to Stafford section is a little more tricky to learn as there are only 3 to 4 miles of 125 followed by similar distance of 120, a short section of 2 miles back to 110 PS and then around 4 to 5 miles of 115. Then the remaining 6.5 miles at 110/105 PS. Pendolino is 125 all the way except a slightly slower 115 at Norton Bridge.

are these such minor reductions from the Pendo speeds that they could be observed and obeyed by just reducing speed on sight of a restriction sign - or a warning sign - at a suitable distance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

are these such minor reductions from the Pendo speeds that they could be observed and obeyed by just reducing speed on sight of a restriction sign - or a warning sign - at a suitable distance?

New thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tass-its-purpose-and-and-its-future.287450/#post-7319329

 

[800001]

Its only the LNW N WON that says about the MU in section D!

The MU speeds have a lot more changes so I would imagine the drivers will find something that suits them.

A Pendo will always do better at EPS than an 80X but when the MU is up and running the Pendo can run to them when non-tilt, so that will be a good comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==


Looks to be running to Wembley via Edinburgh on Tuesday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

805 running on 1F26 to Liverpool today.

That’s surprised me. As of last night the livery looks far from complete, unless they are leaving very large grey areas at the end of every carriage, which looks very strange against the colour livery.

 

[Tilting007]

That’s surprised me. As of last night the livery looks far from complete, unless they are leaving very large grey areas at the end of every carriage, which looks very strange against the colour livery.

I am assuming it’s that unit - I don’t know if there are any other 807s there.
But a path is there for a move.

 

[AJDesiro]

That’s surprised me. As of last night the livery looks far from complete, unless they are leaving very large grey areas at the end of every carriage, which looks very strange against the colour livery.

You can see the final design for the livery if you skip to 20 seconds on the below video:

It looks complete to me.

 

[800001]

You can see the final design for the livery if you skip to 20 seconds on the below video:

It looks complete to me.

Ah, I hadn’t seen this! I’d assumed it was going to cover the whole train.
So yes. Based on what the video shows then yes it’s completes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Getting back to MU limits, let's see what happens when the boards are uncovered. No point planning for driver training if no-one knows when the limits will be introduced

There is very much a point in planning driver training. It has to fit in with all the other duties that drivers have to do. And Avanti know exactly when the new MU limits will be introduced. As do a few people on this thread!

 

[800001]

Here is the delivery path for the final Avanti Unit to be delivered from Hitachi, 807010 in its Together we Roll livery

Realtime Trains | 5Q14 0633 York to Wembley Inter City Depot | 10/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q14 0633 departure from York to Wembley Inter City Depot on 10/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Zakaria Fadel]

Attached below is a quick phone grab of 807010 outside tonight at Merchant Park.
All down this side of unit (unsure of other side) at end of each coach is no special livery just plain grey.

807010’s livery is as follows;
Coach A mirrors J
Coach B mirrors H
Coach C mirrors E
Coach D has its own unique/distinctive design.

Also, 807010 to be delivered to Avanti on Tuesday 10th June provisionally marking all the AWC Evero sets delivered.

Realtime Trains | 5Q14 0633 York to Wembley Inter City Depot | 10/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q14 0633 departure from York to Wembley Inter City Depot on 10/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Pendomonium]

Its only the LNW N WON that says about the MU in section D!

The MU speeds have a lot more changes so I would imagine the drivers will find something that suits them.

A Pendo will always do better at EPS than an 80X but when the MU is up and running the Pendo can run to them when non-tilt, so that will be a good comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==


Looks to be running to Wembley via Edinburgh on Tuesday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

805 running on 1F26 to Liverpool today.

Your WON info checks out ! Drivers will need an agreed delivery package for the MU speed introduction. At this stage there is no material & whilst the boards are uncovered it will be useful to finally see what they say, drivers wont be just left to find them. Interestingly 390s are not passed to run at MU speeds.... yet. It was always an odd anomaly that a non tilt 221 could run at MU speeds but a non tilt 390 couldnt. Im guessing theres some sort of technical limitation, but it was never explained in depth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2025 ==

There is very much a point in planning driver training. It has to fit in with all the other duties that drivers have to do. And Avanti know exactly when the new MU limits will be introduced. As do a few people on this thread!

What Avanti believe is going to happen is often not the reality. The driver training for 80x has been plagued with unachievable timescales, resourcing issues & even qualification issues. It doesn't exactly scream "finger on pulse" when drivers are running out of coupling competence & some recently passed out on 80x have had to be removed from 80x duties as the company cocked up the timescale for the mandatory post qualification re assessment. There has yet to be any information on how the MU speed training is to be delivered, certainly not to those probably expected to deliver it. Like the initial 80x training, I expect a sudden rush... & trip over. Apologies if it appears cynical, but its hard not to be.

 

[Tilting007]

Your WON info checks out ! Drivers will need an agreed delivery package for the MU speed introduction. At this stage there is no material & whilst the boards are uncovered it will be useful to finally see what they say, drivers wont be just left to find them. Interestingly 390s are not passed to run at MU speeds.... yet. It was always an odd anomaly that a non tilt 221 could run at MU speeds but a non tilt 390 couldnt. Im guessing theres some sort of technical limitation, but it was never explained in depth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2025 ==


What Avanti believe is going to happen is often not the reality. The driver training for 80x has been plagued with unachievable timescales, resourcing issues & even qualification issues. It doesn't exactly scream "finger on pulse" when drivers are running out of coupling competence & some recently passed out on 80x have had to be removed from 80x duties as the company cocked up the timescale for the mandatory post qualification re assessment. There has yet to be any information on how the MU speed training is to be delivered, certainly not to those probably expected to deliver it. Like the initial 80x training, I expect a sudden rush... & trip over. Apologies if it appears cynical, but its hard not to be.

The 390 is passed to run at MU speeds as far as being cleared to do so following a vehicle change on the Summary of Compatibility several years ago.
It is likely a TOC decision to not confirm this until the MU training is done.
Unsure if the TMS has already been updated for this yet…
The were originally passed for MU at introduction which was later rescinded but this has been reversed.

This info is as accurate as the WON info I gave…..

 

[Pendomonium]

The 390 is passed to run at MU speeds as far as being cleared to do so following a vehicle change on the Summary of Compatibility several years ago.
It is likely a TOC decision to not confirm this until the MU training is done.
Unsure if the TMS has already been updated for this yet…
The were originally passed for MU at introduction which was later rescinded but this has been reversed.

This info is as accurate as the WON info I gave…..

Thats very interesting, as that means all 390 drivers, as well as those that sign 80x, would need to relearn the MU profiles & the fleet would need a software update. Its also a ball ache not being able to do MU speeds via the West Mids on the existing sections with a non tilt 390. I await the dropping of this bombshell !

 

[Tilting007]

It must have been part of the bigger plan although the delay in the project can’t have helped…

 

[AJDesiro]

Thats very interesting, as that means all 390 drivers, as well as those that sign 80x, would need to relearn the MU profiles & the fleet would need a software update. Its also a ball ache not being able to do MU speeds via the West Mids on the existing sections with a non tilt 390. I await the dropping of this bombshell !

The documents relating to 390s running at MU speeds can be found in this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...5-807s-hitachi-at300-sets.214752/post-6671985

 

[Pendomonium]

The documents relating to 390s running at MU speeds can be found in this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...5-807s-hitachi-at300-sets.214752/post-6671985

Thanks for that. Very interesting. Puts some of the murmurings into perspective!

 

[800001]

807010’s livery is as follows;
Coach A mirrors J
Coach B mirrors H
Coach C mirrors E
Coach D has its own unique/distinctive design.

Also, 807010 to be delivered to Avanti on Tuesday 10th June provisionally marking all the AWC Evero sets delivered.

Realtime Trains | 5Q14 0633 York to Wembley Inter City Depot | 10/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q14 0633 departure from York to Wembley Inter City Depot on 10/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like delivery not happening this Tuesday. Loco move up to Merchant Park was cancelled.

 

[meld3]

Looks like delivery not happening this Tuesday. Loco move up to Merchant Park was cancelled.

I thought it was driving itself hence York - Edinburgh and down the west coast ??

 

[800001]

I thought it was driving itself hence York - Edinburgh and down the west coast ??

How’s does it get from the Factory to the mainline………

 

[DJH1971]

Realtime Trains is still showing the path for 5Q14 as still going ahead