Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[cambsy]

The MU speeds profile looks interesting, and should give some lively running, and exciting runs. Think the drivers will have work cut out to make good use of the MU speeds,and should be good to log the performance of the 805’s-807’s doing this.

 

[GhostManDN91]

Definitely sounds interesting, I prefer the 390s currently on the WCML due to the faster running and tilt. Better using LNER etc if you want speeds of over 110 on a 80x currently.

 

[Tilting007]

From another source - It's officially starting on the 8th June between Crewe and Weaver Jn according to NR notices,but seemingly with the proviso that individual drivers are deemed competent to deal with the new scenario.

It is listed in the WON, Section C.
It has a clause stating individual train companies will advise their drivers when they are permitted to operate at MU.
Anyone from AWC able to confirm if able to run at MU?

I think its only the boards being uncovered, not sure the drivers have been briefed, had sufficient days ‘learning’ the route….

 

[Railperf]

It is listed in the WON, Section C.
It has a clause stating individual train companies will advise their drivers when they are permitted to operate at MU.
Anyone from AWC able to confirm if able to run at MU?

I think its only the boards being uncovered, not sure the drivers have been briefed, had sufficient days ‘learning’ the route….

Liverpool Avanti driver on another forum claims nothing has been announced to them yet. No training either.

 

[cambsy]

A Pendolino with a clear run and no TSR’s can run Euston to passing Crewe in 84 mins, so having exactly same run, how close to this could a 805-807 get, once all the new MU speeds are permitted? I think with the Pendolino’s able to do 120-125mph, for approx 130 miles out of the 158 Euston-Crewe, the 805’s-807’s wont be able to be better than 5-6 mins slower at a push.

 

[Bald Rick]

A Pendolino with a clear run and no TSR’s can run Euston to passing Crewe in 84 mins, so having exactly same run, how close to this could a 805-807 get, once all the new MU speeds are permitted? I think with the Pendolino’s able to do 120-125mph, for approx 130 miles out of the 158 Euston-Crewe, the 805’s-807’s wont be able to be better than 5-6 mins slower at a push.

The 805/807s won’t be on any services running Euston to Crewe (Pass) non-stop, so this comparison is not going to be a reflection of their use.

Better to compare them on duties that they will be used on, and to compare them to the rolling stock that they replace, eg:

Euston - Crewe - Chester / N Wales vs Class 221s

Euston - Birmingham calling Watford, MK, Rugby, Coventry, International vs Class 390s

Euston - Liverpool (varous calling patterns) vs Class 390s.

 

[cambsy]

Bald Rick, I was just using Euston-Crewe passing Crewe, as a good hypothetical comparison, rather than real world. I think with stops the 805-807’s will claw back some time with better acceleration and braking than the Pendolino’s, to be couple mins within the time of a Pendolino. If both ran Euston-Crewe hypothetically, the Pendolino would be faster by approx 5-6 mins, maybe more .

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Both.

According to this PWI presentation "NW&C 25kV Future Electrification requirements", there are no concerns south of Crewe, but the whole line between Crewe and Lime Street, and between Crewe and Euxton is classed as Yellow: "There are concerns for the ability of Feeder Stations to continue their current output without interventions". And the line between Euxton and Blackpool is classed red, with "Safety Concerns" at Catteral feeder station.

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/08_Electrification_Regional-plans-for-the-future_D-Chauke.pdf

See chart on p16

Wow. Only just seen this. Thanks for posting. Very interesting indeed.

 

[Elecman]

Catterall needs replacing with a new 400/25kV AT Feeder from Penwortham

 

[Pendomonium]

Liverpool Avanti driver on another forum claims nothing has been announced to them yet. No training either.

The WON only lists the pre existing MU speeds & I checked the latest PON with the same results. The new MU boards are remaining covered but the on line Sectional Appendix was checked & no new MU line speeds have been included. There is no agreement in place with regards to road learning, nor are there any timescales or materials produced. The preferred MU speed "risk mitigation" is by use of DAS, but that is also a way off being functional & again, no agreements or retrospective method of working has been discussed. Its still a pipe dream.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The WON only lists the pre existing MU speeds & I checked the latest PON with the same results. The new MU boards are remaining covered but the on line Sectional Appendix was checked & no new MU line speeds have been included. There is no agreement in place with regards to road learning, nor are there any timescales or materials produced. The preferred MU speed "risk mitigation" is by use of DAS, but that is also a way off being functional & again, no agreements or retrospective method of working has been discussed. Its still a pipe dream.

That is astonishing on one level, but highly predictable on another.
I just cannot wait for GBR to take over and abolish the mess we currently have where there seems to be loads of misorganisation *. How long ago were the 805s and 807s ordered ? Which means there would have been plans back then for the TASS to eventually be withdrawn - which it surely will be.
So Avanti have a squeaky clean set of brand new trains which cannot use TASS, but allegedly out perform a 390 on acceleration and maybe deceleration, but still cannot match.

* Obviously not holding my breath on how soon that will happen either !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just cannot wait for GBR to take over and abolish the mess we currently have where there seems to be loads of misorganisation *. How long ago were the 805s and 807s ordered ? Which means there would have been plans back then for the TASS to eventually be withdrawn - which it surely will be.

Why would TASS be withdrawn? The 805/807s aren't replacing Pendolinos, they replaced Voyagers.

I can't see that happening until Pendolinos are replaced with HS2 units. And that's years off.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Why would TASS be withdrawn? The 805/807s aren't replacing Pendolinos, they replaced Voyagers.

I can't see that happening until Pendolinos are replaced with HS2 units. And that's years off.

Yes, but the oldest 390s are 20 years old, and worked pretty hard. I reckon the oldest will run out of C4 or C6 miles and be stored by maybe 2035. When they start to go then TASS will be switched off in my opinion

 

[Pendomonium]

That is astonishing on one level, but highly predictable on another.
I just cannot wait for GBR to take over and abolish the mess we currently have where there seems to be loads of misorganisation *. How long ago were the 805s and 807s ordered ? Which means there would have been plans back then for the TASS to eventually be withdrawn - which it surely will be.
So Avanti have a squeaky clean set of brand new trains which cannot use TASS, but allegedly out perform a 390 on acceleration and maybe deceleration, but still cannot match.

* Obviously not holding my breath on how soon that will happen either !!

Don't underestimate the "influence" of DfT on these decisions. It would appear that they now want to micromanage situations they themselves have allowed, even encouraged, to develop. Even with MU speeds, I doubt the 80x fleet will match 390 timings on anything other than former Voyager & current West Midlands workings. They just dont have the marathon legs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

Yes, but the oldest 390s are 20 years old, and worked pretty hard. I reckon the oldest will run out of C4 or C6 miles and be stored by maybe 2035. When they start to go then TASS will be switched off in my opinion

Voyagers had TASS but operated at some slightly lower EPS speeds on bends, but still consistently faster than many proposed MU speed profiles. Switching TASS off has been a growing background murmur. I would like to know from someone in the know if reducing the 390 fleet to PS or MU speeds non tilt would save on infrastructure wear & costs.

 

[43096]

Yes, but the oldest 390s are 20 years old, and worked pretty hard. I reckon the oldest will run out of C4 or C6 miles and be stored by maybe 2035.

They will run out of miles to next C4/C6 (or equivalent) long before then. It doesn’t mean they will be withdrawn though.

 

[Sorcerer]

Euston - Liverpool (varous calling patterns) vs Class 390s.

I believe the 807s are about seven minutes slower than the 390s as far as timings go, so even here where they are arguably the least competitive they still manage to have a respectably similar journey time.

Even with MU speeds, I doubt the 80x fleet will match 390 timings on anything other than former Voyager & current West Midlands workings. They just dont have the marathon legs.

These two services are already two of the three regular daytime workings of the 805/807s with the third being the current Liverpool trains that are only about seven minutes slower than the 390. They might not have the marathon legs but they were never designed to. Their purpose was simply to replace the 221s on the Chester/North Wales route as well as the 390s on the Birmingham semi-fast which it is better suited for, and to run alongside the 390s on half-hourly Liverpool services.

Voyagers had TASS but operated at some slightly lower EPS speeds on bends, but still consistently faster than many proposed MU speed profiles. Switching TASS off has been a growing background murmur. I would like to know from someone in the know if reducing the 390 fleet to PS or MU speeds non tilt would save on infrastructure wear & costs.

I don't see TASS being turned off while 390s remain the bulk of the WCML InterCity traffic, but it definitely won't be renewed or updated once HS2 opens and tilting trains are no longer required. Any future use of the Pendolino will most likely be without tilting function if they have any further use at all; by the mid-2030s when HS2 begins operation they'll be reaching retirement.

 

[Pendomonium]

I believe the 807s are about seven minutes slower than the 390s as far as timings go, so even here where they are arguably the least competitive they still manage to have a respectably similar journey time.


These two services are already two of the three regular daytime workings of the 805/807s with the third being the current Liverpool trains that are only about seven minutes slower than the 390. They might not have the marathon legs but they were never designed to. Their purpose was simply to replace the 221s on the Chester/North Wales route as well as the 390s on the Birmingham semi-fast which it is better suited for, and to run alongside the 390s on half-hourly Liverpool services.


I don't see TASS being turned off while 390s remain the bulk of the WCML InterCity traffic, but it definitely won't be renewed or updated once HS2 opens and tilting trains are no longer required. Any future use of the Pendolino will most likely be without tilting function if they have any further use at all; by the mid-2030s when HS2 begins operation they'll be reaching retirement.

Yes & No. The Hitachi IEP is a long distance HS train, but the WCML doesn't particularly suit their shoe horning into the post VHF timetable style of ops alongside tilting trains. Its not necessarily a fudge, but it is what is now available. If in the new order of things costs outweigh the benefits of tilt, it will go.

 

[Sorcerer]

Yes & No. The Hitachi IEP is a long distance HS train, but the WCML doesn't particularly suit their shoe horning into the post VHF timetable style of ops alongside tilting trains. Its not necessarily a fudge, but it is what is now available. If in the new order of things costs outweigh the benefits of tilt, it will go.

But how likely is that actually to be the case? What would be the cost of disabling and dismantling an entire smart tilt signalling system (including removal of balise systems) specially engineered in the mid-2000s modernisation to enable fastest possible operation of the principle InterCity rolling stock compared to just letting the Pendolinos reach the end of their lifespan and removing it more gradually once HS2 is operational?

 

[Pendomonium]

But how likely is that actually to be the case? What would be the cost of disabling and dismantling an entire smart tilt signalling system (including removal of balise systems) specially engineered in the mid-2000s modernisation to enable fastest possible operation of the principle InterCity rolling stock compared to just letting the Pendolinos reach the end of their lifespan and removing it more gradually once HS2 is operational?

The quickest way is to isolate the TASS on the 390 & leave the balises in situ or until track renewals see them lifted. (I remember seeing APT transponders in the 4 ft until the WCRM scheme renewed lots of track.) There would be no cost. I believe this was done to the XC 221 fleet. Of course, what I have not factored in is the introduction of in cab signalling. We don't yet know how HS2 fleets will integrate with the legacy network signaling wise. There is the prospect of some, or at least one, WCML line(s) being converted to ERTMS in the not too distant future, but that will require retrofitting of fleets with ERTMS equipment (something that appears easier to do on the 80x fleet).

 

[Sorcerer]

The quickest way is to isolate the TASS on the 390 & leave the balises in situ or until track renewals see them lifted. (I remember seeing APT transponders in the 4 ft until the WCRM scheme renewed lots of track.) There would be no cost. I believe this was done to the XC 221 fleet. Of course, what I have not factored in is the introduction of in cab signalling. We don't yet know how HS2 fleets will integrate with the legacy network signaling wise. There is the prospect of some, or at least one, WCML line(s) being converted to ERTMS in the not too distant future, but that will require retrofitting of fleets with ERTMS equipment (something that appears easier to do on the 80x fleet).

Fair enough I suppose but I still don't expect TASS to be disabled or removed until HS2 is operational or the Pendolino reach the end of their lifespan, whichever comes first. I think CrossCountry Voyagers had their tilt disabled partially due to how little tilting they did over the bulk of their routes? Someone will have to fact check me on that one. HS2 trains meanwhile will likely be compatible with AWS as well as ETCS since it'll be a while before the whole network is able to be fully transitioned. In either case I don't expect the Multiple Unit profile to be the max speed on the line for quite some time.

 

[Wyrleybart]

But how likely is that actually to be the case? What would be the cost of disabling and dismantling an entire smart tilt signalling system (including removal of balise systems) specially engineered in the mid-2000s modernisation to enable fastest possible operation of the principle InterCity rolling stock compared to just letting the Pendolinos reach the end of their lifespan and removing it more gradually once HS2 is operational?

I think the TASS system was actually a late 1990s design and implemented on a small stretch of Cherwell Valley near chez Branson, as well as the WCML. The 221s were entering service in 2001, just months after the first (non tilt) 220s and from memory tilting was active from maybe 2002 onwards. By October 2007 I believe the XC organisation wanted the TASS and tilt system on their 221s and when Arriva won the XC franchise, one of the first wishes was to have Bombardier isolate the system from the XC fleet. AIUI the rams etc were replaced by straight bars and stored somewhere. In the last few months the ex AWC 221s for XC have been "XC ized" but not sure about 221101-221106, nor the GC pair 221142/143.

TASS is a marvelous design, but Network Rail clearly don't want the additional costs of maintaining it. I think it will eventually be switched off i nthe fullness of time, and probably removed piecemeal, as the track needs reballasting, resleepering or total renewal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

They will run out of miles to next C4/C6 (or equivalent) long before then. It doesn’t mean they will be withdrawn though.

Absolutely not. They are really good trains, and below the solebar they appear to be pretty bulletproof. But they are growing older year by year, and maybe the beancounters will decide they need replacing irrespective ofwhat happens with HS2.

In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the 390s eventually becomes a new "Doctor yellow" for working up to the HS2 routes.

 

[Sorcerer]

I think the TASS system was actually a late 1990s design and implemented on a small stretch of Cherwell Valley near chez Branson, as well as the WCML. The 221s were entering service in 2001, just months after the first (non tilt) 220s and from memory tilting was active from maybe 2002 onwards. By October 2007 I believe the XC organisation wanted the TASS and tilt system on their 221s and when Arriva won the XC franchise, one of the first wishes was to have Bombardier isolate the system from the XC fleet. AIUI the rams etc were replaced by straight bars and stored somewhere. In the last few months the ex AWC 221s for XC have been "XC ized" but not sure about 221101-221106, nor the GC pair 221142/143.

Well, thank you for the history lesson! I suspected CrossCountry would want all Voyagers to be TASS-isolated but I didn't realise it was implemented elsewhere before the WCML. I don't expect it would've been suited in many other places though.

TASS is a marvelous design, but Network Rail clearly don't want the additional costs of maintaining it. I think it will eventually be switched off i nthe fullness of time, and probably removed piecemeal, as the track needs reballasting, resleepering or total renewal.

I also don't think Alstom would support continued and newer versions of it either, especially with line speeds being increased across the network without the need for tilting trains. After the 390s I don't see any more appearing on the network even if they became maintenance or measurement units.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, thank you for the history lesson! I suspected CrossCountry would want all Voyagers to be TASS-isolated but I didn't realise it was implemented elsewhere before the WCML. I don't expect it would've been suited in many other places though.

On the short XC section in the Cherwell Valley, where TASS was installed, the timetable had to be written for either 220 or 221, as the unit diagramming was fairly random (as it still is). So it was only ever useful to make up time.

 

[Pendomonium]

I think the TASS system was actually a late 1990s design and implemented on a small stretch of Cherwell Valley near chez Branson, as well as the WCML. The 221s were entering service in 2001, just months after the first (non tilt) 220s and from memory tilting was active from maybe 2002 onwards. By October 2007 I believe the XC organisation wanted the TASS and tilt system on their 221s and when Arriva won the XC franchise, one of the first wishes was to have Bombardier isolate the system from the XC fleet. AIUI the rams etc were replaced by straight bars and stored somewhere. In the last few months the ex AWC 221s for XC have been "XC ized" but not sure about 221101-221106, nor the GC pair 221142/143.

TASS is a marvelous design, but Network Rail clearly don't want the additional costs of maintaining it. I think it will eventually be switched off i nthe fullness of time, and probably removed piecemeal, as the track needs reballasting, resleepering or total renewal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==


Absolutely not. They are really good trains, and below the solebar they appear to be pretty bulletproof. But they are growing older year by year, and maybe the beancounters will decide they need replacing irrespective ofwhat happens with HS2.

In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the 390s eventually becomes a new "Doctor yellow" for working up to the HS2 routes.

They are fairly reliable. However... The internal refurb was done down to budget & although the bogie refurb program is complete the trains are beginning to exhibit signs of component failure. You do need to have a bad day to fail completely, but sets regularly enter service with "concessions" to cover already defective equipment. There may be issues with replacement of (relatively minor) components no longer available. To be fair the 80x fleet has also its share of serviceability issues which are more of an annoyance rather than impacting operations.

 

[Tilting007]

Don't underestimate the "influence" of DfT on these decisions. It would appear that they now want to micromanage situations they themselves have allowed, even encouraged, to develop. Even with MU speeds, I doubt the 80x fleet will match 390 timings on anything other than former Voyager & current West Midlands workings. They just dont have the marathon legs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==


Voyagers had TASS but operated at some slightly lower EPS speeds on bends, but still consistently faster than many proposed MU speed profiles. Switching TASS off has been a growing background murmur. I would like to know from someone in the know if reducing the 390 fleet to PS or MU speeds non tilt would save on infrastructure wear & costs.

Running a pendo at MU or PS would make little difference.
They are rated as a track friendly unit and there would be no change to track categories so inspection would be the same and likely maintenance requirements would be too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

The quickest way is to isolate the TASS on the 390 & leave the balises in situ or until track renewals see them lifted. (I remember seeing APT transponders in the 4 ft until the WCRM scheme renewed lots of track.) There would be no cost. I believe this was done to the XC 221 fleet. Of course, what I have not factored in is the introduction of in cab signalling. We don't yet know how HS2 fleets will integrate with the legacy network signaling wise. There is the prospect of some, or at least one, WCML line(s) being converted to ERTMS in the not too distant future, but that will require retrofitting of fleets with ERTMS equipment (something that appears easier to do on the 80x fleet).

There is still an ATP balise in the down cess by Leighton Buzzard OHNS.
It was in track until the track was renewed about 13 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

The WON only lists the pre existing MU speeds & I checked the latest PON with the same results. The new MU boards are remaining covered but the on line Sectional Appendix was checked & no new MU line speeds have been included. There is no agreement in place with regards to road learning, nor are there any timescales or materials produced. The preferred MU speed "risk mitigation" is by use of DAS, but that is also a way off being functional & again, no agreements or retrospective method of working has been discussed. Its still a pipe dream.

The signs between Crewe and Weaver and due to be uncovered ready for possession hand back Sunday…

Only a few in that section.

Not sure why this weekend has been identified given issues with DAS and driver briefs / training.

 

[800001]

Attached below is a quick phone grab of 807010 outside tonight at Merchant Park.
All down this side of unit (unsure of other side) at end of each coach is no special livery just plain grey.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Attached below is a quick phone grab of 807010 outside tonight at Merchant Park.
All down this side of unit (unsure of other side) at end of each coach is no special livery just plain grey.

Thanks for the photo. Assuming the other side is done that means delivery soon I hope ?.

 

[Bald Rick]

What would be the cost of disabling and dismantling an entire smart tilt signalling system (including removal of balise systems) specially engineered in the mid-2000s modernisation to enable fastest possible operation of the principle InterCity rolling stock compared to just letting the Pendolinos reach the end of their lifespan and removing it more gradually once HS2 is operational?

TASS is a marvelous design, but Network Rail clearly don't want the additional costs of maintaining it.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about what TASS is. It is a train borne system, and nothing to do with the signalling. It uses the track balises for location only. Network Rail’s maintenance costs for it are negligible.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about what TASS is. It is a train borne system, and nothing to do with the signalling. It uses the track balises for location only. Network Rail’s maintenance costs for it are negligible.

Trouble is what do DfT think it costs !.

 

[800001]

Thanks for the photo. Assuming the other side is done that means delivery soon I hope ?.

No. From photo on Facebook earlier in week, at least 2 carriages on other side are the same possibly more.

I would say delivery at least 4 weeks away